Why was jesus transfigured before the atonement?

[LDS Guy 1986]

Who said I was talking about you?

Well, TAO was talking about me, and you were talking about TAO's comments about me.

So who else were you talking about?

If it wasn't me then I apologize for my ignorance, but unless I missed something really big here I think you are talking about me.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I am quite familiar with FAIRS, haven't seen it myself.

I'll try and find a link for you.

[WalkerW]

You can accept or reject the teachings of the restored gospel, I have no problem with that. We each have to make this decision in our lives, what I do have a problem with is people trying to change the message of the Restored Gospel to fit what they want it to be.

This is not the straight and narrow way to salvation, but the path to confusion and deception.

You need to calm the hell down.

[Calm]

Since when is an accusation (such as "it would appear you do not see anyone of less glory than Terrestrial as "immortal"") a question?

When it ends with a question mark (see the "am I missing something?" which was a serious inquiry intending to convey that I was unsure I understood what you meant by your statement.)

[Calm]

Well, TAO was talking about me, and you were talking about TAO's comments about me.

So who else were you talking about?

I was making a general statement about the purpose of the board providing further context for Tao's observations.

[Calm]

I'll try and find a link for you.

Thank you. I am always interested in seeing how people develop their personal interpretations of theology.

[Calm]

Clarifying another of your statements:

I do have a problem with is people trying to change the message of the Restored Gospel to fit what they want it to be.

Are you talking about theology here or the doctrines of the Gospel?

[WalkerW]

Kevin provided an excellent link to one of Margaret Barker's article, which reads,

This is exactly the transformation experience at the heart of the apocalyptists

[LDS Guy 1986]

You need to calm the hell down.

Two questions,

1) Who said I am not calm?

2) Can you please refrain for profanity?

Thanks!

[LDS Guy 1986]

Clarifying another of your statements:Are you talking about theology here or the doctrines of the Gospel?

This would apply to both, more so to doctrine than theology since doctrine cannot change and our interpretation can change over time.

[LDS Guy 1986]

When it ends with a question mark (see the "am I missing something?" which was a serious inquiry intending to convey that I was unsure I understood what you meant by your statement.)

You accused me of one thing and then after (separate sentence) asked if you are missing something. This is an accusation (a false one to boot) followed by a question to correct your false accusation which I did.

[LDS Guy 1986]

To those that say the Three Nephites will die this is an interesting quote from FAIRS (I am still trying to track down others as well)

The LDS view has both [Moses and Elijah] being translated (i.e. taken to heaven without dying, since they needed to have bodies to pass on priesthood keys).

I know that it has been said that translated being like the Three Nephites and John the Apostle will die at one point, just a bit of third party evidence against this point.

[Mark Beesley]

LDS Guy,

Since it appears you have not read the McConkie article on Translated Beings (perfhaps it was too lengthy), here is an excerpt therefrom:

It is from the account of the translation of the Three Nephites that we gain most of our knowledge of the present ministry among men of translated beings. It is very evident that such persons "never taste of death; never endure the pains of death"; that they have undergone a change in their bodies, "that they might not suffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world"; that they were holy men, "sanctified in the flesh"; "that the powers of the earth could not hold them"; that "they are as the angels of God," ministering to whomsoever they will; that they "shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality" at the Second Coming; and that they shall then inherit exaltation in the kingdom of God. (3 Ne. 28.)

This final change from mortality to immortality is in effect their death, for all men die, even those who are alive when Christ comes, and those who will live during the millennium. "Children shall grow up until they become old," the Lord says of the millennial era. "Old men shall die; but they shall not sleep in the dust, but they shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye." (D. & C. 63:49-52; 101:23-31.) It is interesting to note that John in recording the Lord's promise to him, apparently knew that he should not "taste" death or "endure" the pains thereof, yet knew that he would pass through a change equivalent to death. "Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die," John says, "yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" (John 21:20-23.)

All translated beings accordingly receive what amounts to an instantaneous death and resurrection. Those who were translated before the resurrection of our Lord "were with Christ in his resurrection." (D. & C. 133:55.) Those who have been translated since the resurrection of Christ shall continue to live as mortals until the Second Coming when they shall receive their immortal glory. It will be resurrected, not translated beings, who shall return with the city of Enoch.

Translated beings, stlill die, eventually. At least, according to this particular apostle.

[Mark Beesley]

To those that say the Three Nephites will die this is an interesting quote from FAIRS (I am still trying to track down others as well)

The LDS view has both [Moses and Elijah] being translated (i.e. taken to heaven without dying, since they needed to have bodies to pass on priesthood keys).

I know that it has been said that translated being like the Three Nephites and John the Apostle will die at one point, just a bit of third party evidence against this point.

Perhaps you should contact the person who wrote the FAIR article you are relying on and ask them if they mean to say that Moses and Elijah would never die. Of course, you may be assigning a different definition to death than that which is commonly understood . . .

So, whatever your definition is of death, are you saying that there are some people who will never die? That the Fall of Adam was not universal in its effect? That Paul was mistaken when he wrote, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."? (1 Corinthians 15:22) Maybe he meant to write, "For as in Adam most die . . ."???

Do you ever stop to think about the ramifications of arguments you make?

You have yet to provide a scirptural basis for your asertion that Christ received the power of immortaliy on the Mount of Transfiguration. Such an argument denies the divinity of Christ's birth.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Perhaps you should contact the person who wrote the FAIR article you are relying on and ask them if they mean to say that Moses and Elijah would never die. Of course, you may be assigning a different definition to death than that which is commonly understood . . .

So, whatever your definition is of death, are you saying that there are some people who will never die? That the Fall of Adam was not universal in its effect? That Paul was mistaken when he wrote, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."? (1 Corinthians 15:22) Maybe he meant to write, "For as in Adam most die . . ."???

I am sure the seasoned scholars at FAIRS wouldn't make such an elementary mistake and let is go uncorrected, they are scholars and would correct such mistakes to save there credibility.

Also if you want to argue that literally everyone must die because Paul said all, then you must also accept that Christ is a sinner, for Paul also said that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is a sinner?

If you don't then you cannot say that his use of all must die, is also to override the power of translated beings. Just as Christ being the Son of God made him capable of never sinning, so does a translated being have the power from God to never die.

Do you ever stop to think about the ramifications of arguments you make?

See my above answer and ask yourself the same question. You are using double standards here, and I will not continue to discuss anything with you if you intend to keep up this hypocrisy.

You have yet to provide a scirptural basis for your asertion that Christ received the power of immortaliy on the Mount of Transfiguration. Such an argument denies the divinity of Christ's birth.

Did I ever say there was a scripture that said Christ became immortal on the Mount. If I did I apologize because that is a not correct, now let's flip this around though can you find for me any scripture that says Christ was immortal from conception or birth?

This is all interpretation of scripture, its theology, its us trying to understand the gasp left in the scriptures. For example, we know that Christ is a carpenter, there is no scripture that tells of him making houses or anything, what we do know is that is mortal Father Joseph was a carpenter and that in those days sons did the work there fathers did.

Once again this is theology, we have no record of Christ's adolescence or young adult hood, we go from Christ teaching in the Temple at age 12 to Christ getting Baptized at age 30! Not one word of the 18 years in between ever mentioned but I would be bold enough to say that every Christian accepts that Jesus was a carpenter by profession without a single word of scripture.

Just like you accept that Christ was immortal from birth without scripture and I accept that Christ was translated (since transfigured sent you off last time) on the Mount and became immortal.

Your position is just as interpretive as mine, neither of use can act like we are absolutely correct.

[Mark Beesley]

From Mormonwiki.com:

As the Son of God, Jesus Christ is the only being who could have performed an infinite sacrifice to atone for the sins of Mankind. Because He was (and is) the Son of God, He had the physical and spiritual strength to suffer for us all. Because He was the Son of God, He inherited from His Father in Heaven power over death. From His human mother Mary, Christ inherited the ability to die. Thus, He was the only person who could lay down His life and then take it up again in the resurrection. His resurrection completed His triumph over death and sin.

http://www.mormonwik...of_Jesus_Christ

Jesus Christ had power over death because He was the Son of God, not because He was given the power later on the Mount of Transfiguration. He had the power when He was born.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Translated beings, stlill die, eventually. At least, according to this particular apostle.

So where Brigham Young told us that blacks would be slaves in heaven do we accept that as doctrine because a prophet of God said it?

Of how about when it was taught by apostles that a wife can only enter Celestial Glory if her husband lets her?

Just because an Apostle write something in a book doesn't mean it is doctrine, Apostles are just as mortal as you and I are. They have opinions and interpretations of the doctrine and scriptures just like we do. The only time something is compulsive is when it is accepted as the will of the lord by unanimous decision of the 15 Apostles and sustained by the body of the Church in general conference.

[LDS Guy 1986]

From Mormonwiki.com:

Jesus Christ had power over death because He was the Son of God, not because He was given the power later on the Mount of Transfiguration. He had the power when He was born.

I said SCRIPTURE not mormonwiki,com.

This is the last time I will ask that you stop using double standards, you demand that I present scripture, that says Christ was made immortal on the mount. I said its interpretation, and challenged you to present scripture that says he was immortal from birth.

You instead present opinion from a website, I want scripture, if you can't present in your next post I will accept that as your conceding that there is no scripture and you too admit that you are not in the scripture either but are interpreting scripture.

[Mark Beesley]

I am sure the seasoned scholars at FAIRS wouldn't make such an elementary mistake and let is go uncorrected, they are scholars and would correct such mistakes to save there credibility.

Just ask 'em.

Also if you want to argue that literally everyone must die because Paul said all, then you must also accept that Christ is a sinner, for Paul also said that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

You need to read Paul in context. When he write that we all sin, he is writing the in the context of the need for the Savior, and obviously in doing so is excluding Christ from the set of those who have sinned.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is a sinner?

No.

If you don't then you cannot say that his use of all must die, is also to override the power of translated beings.

Yes I can, because there is nothing in the context of Paul's writings to exclude translated beings.

Just as Christ being the Son of God made him capable of never sinning, so does a translated being have the power from God to never die.

This is false doctrine. Christ was always capable of sinning, That is what makes His life so exemplary.

See my above answer and ask yourself the same question. You are using double standards here, and I will not continue to discuss anything with you if you intend to keep up this hypocrisy.

What double standards am I using? Reading the scriptures in context is not using a double standard. But if you want to cease discussions with me, that's fine.

Did I ever say there was a scripture that said Christ became immortal on the Mount. If I did I apologize because that is a not correct, now let's flip this around though can you find for me any scripture that says Christ was immortal from conception or birth?

Yes, every scripture that testifies that He is the Son of God is essentially saying that He had power over death when He was born.

Just like you accept that Christ was immortal from birth without scripture and I accept that Christ was translated (since transfigured sent you off last time) on the Mount and became immortal.

So, now you are claiming that Christ was translated??? I give up. Go talk to your bishop

Your position is just as interpretive as mine, neither of use can act like we are absolutely correct.

Except I have the support of everything every General Authority has ever said or written on the subject on my side. You will never find a single statement by a General Authority that says the Christ received power over death on the Mount of Transfiguration. Every single General Authority who has ever broached the subject says that Christ inherited the power from His Father at birth. So, yeah, on this issue, I will act like I am absolutely correct. Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and as such He had power over death from the moment He was born.

[WalkerW]

Two questions,

1) Who said I am not calm?

I implied it by making the suggestion. Your hellfire and brimstone rhetoric and ridiculous generalizations about how "all the Standard Works" agree with you needs to cease. It is embarrassing.

[LDS Guy 1986]

So, now you are claiming that Christ was translated??? I give up. Go talk to your bishop

I love you brother but if you don't read what I say I can't discuss things with you. Your continued refusal to show scripture that says Christ is immortal from birth is now taken by me to be an admission on your behalf that there is no scripture.

This means you are trying to force your opinion on me, which is not welcomed, especially when you set a double standard by demanding scripture from me and refusing to present scripture for your position.

This discussion is over, unless you wish to stop using double standards and actually discuss some theology.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I implied it by making the suggestion. Your hellfire and brimstone rhetoric and ridiculous generalizations about how "all the Standard Works" agree with you needs to cease. It is embarrassing.

I wouldn't call it hellfire or brimstone, refuting false statements is the duty of a Christian, we are taught this by Paul. I was never not calm, and your profanity was far worse than any of my statements.

[WalkerW]

I wouldn't call it hellfire or brimstone, refuting false statements is the duty of a Christian, we are taught this by Paul. I was never not calm, and your profanity was far worse than any of my statements.

But you haven't supported anything. You've just made generalizations, assertions, and references to unkown FAIR papers that you can't seem to find. You then declare authoritatively that all those who have disagreed with you (and who seem to have supported their arguments at least with some documentation) are wallowing in false doctrine and don't know the scriptures.

Quite frankly, I'd say the arrogance and ignorance oozing from your posts (as well as your "jack off" comment in another thread) are far worse than any modern, culturally-constructed profanity.

Your comments ring more of YEC Bible Belt evangelism than Mormonism.

[Senator]

Your comments ring more of YEC Bible Belt evangelism than Mormonism.

I think we might have a troll incognito....

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You need to calm the hell down.

"Those are the hell not your whales".

Ok, just trying to lighten the mood. Carry on.