Mark Beesley Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 I'm pretty sure this would be related to temple material... but considering I haven't been through temple mairrage, couldn't tell ya' for sure.I have, and it isn't.
Mark Beesley Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 From the LDS Bible Dictionary: Transfiguration, Mount ofTransfiguration, Mount of. This very important event in the N.T. occurred about a week after the promise made to Peter that he would receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 16:13
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Quote me a verse in either book which says that Christ gained power of transfiguration on the Mount of Transfiguration. Also note that Mormon specifically states that he did not know if the 3 Nephites were mortal or immortal after their "transfiguration." 3 Nephi 28:15. In other words, even Mormon did not understand what it means to be transfigured.I'm not sure what scriptures you are reading to reach these conclusions. Care to share some citations?That is not what the scirptures or the General Authorities teach us.If I knew what it meant to be transfigured, I could answer that question. But I don't, and neither do you, and that is why we are having this discussion.By being Christ.Once again you refuse to accept that the Three Nephites, Moses, and John the Apostle are immortal. If they are not immortal how are 4 of them still waking the Earth this day?If they are immortal this means that they were given an immortal state by being transfigured, unless you want to claim they were immortal all along. Also your verse says nothing about Nephi not being able to tell if the were in a state of mortality or immortality at all, "And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God."It clearly says that they were changed from mortal to immortal by was seemed to be transfiguration. What Nephi couldn't tell was if this transfiguration took place inside the body (meaning that there body changed and became immortal), or if it happened outside the body (meaning there spirit left there mortal body and entered an immortal body).Your own verse against transfiguration making people immortal clears says it made the Three Nephites immortal. Unless we are to believe that God is a respecter of persons all of a sudden, that means that Christ too could only obtain immortality before resurrection is by transfiguration.
Mark Beesley Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 LDS Guy 1986,Two questions:1. What does it mean to be immortal?2. If Christ received power over death on the Mount of Transfiguration, why was it necessary that He be born the Son of God?Have nice day. I need to get ready for Church.Shalom.From Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie:TRANSLATED BEINGSSee ANGELS, CHURCH OF ENOCH, DEATH, GUARDIAN ANGELS, MINISTERING OF ANGELS, RESURRECTION, THREE NEPHITES. During the first 2200 or so years of the earth's history
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 LDS Guy 1986,Two questions:1. What does it mean to be immortal?2. If Christ received power over death on the Mount of Transfiguration, why was it necessary that He be born the Son of God?1. Immortal means you do no die. Unlike you stated 3 Nephites, John, are immortal since they still walk the Earth this day. 2. Christ needed to be born the Only Begotten Son of God so he could be perfect, man is imperfect and will sin. If Christ was born of two mortal parents then he would of had to sin, as we are told in Romans 3:23. Being the Son of God he had the power to be absolutely perfect, only a perfect sacrifice can offer an infinite atonement. He had to be both immortal and perfect to offer and infinite atonement, he perfection comes from being the Only Begotten Son of God. His immortality comes from his transfiguration on the Mount.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Note that translated beings, such as Moses, the Three Nephites, and John the Beloved, are not immortal, unless you are giving the word a new definition.If you read the giant text from 3 Nephi I posted previously, I doubt you can honestly claim this and say you believe the scriptures are true.
saemo Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 From the LDS Bible Dictionary:It does not suggest, hint, or imply that Christ received immortality on the Mount. He inherited power over death from His Father when He was born the Son of God.Reading through this thread, I'll just throw the Christian understanding out there (FWIW).Prior to the transfiguration Jesus had been tested by the Pharisees and Sadducees, who rejected Him as the Messiah. While at this same time, Peter witnessed that He is the Messiah. On the Mount, Elijah and Moses, representing the Prophets and the Law, is a testimant that Jesus truly is the Messiah. To further strike the point, the Father is heard, confirming that Jesus is the Son. Further allusions to OT, are the three tents representing the booths the Hebrews lived in after they left Egypt. The Father overshadows them as a cloud, bringing all of them into the mystery of Jesus' glorification (as we are all brought). The cloud over the meeting tent indicates the presence of the Lord among His people, and, it came to rest over the temple in Jerusalem at the time of its dedication. The purpose of the temple being fulfilled in Jesus Christ.Prior to the transfiguration, Jesus had also begun to show the disciples that He was going to suffer, die and be raised from death. At which point, Peter showed a great anxiety at this by exclaiming that nothing could happen to Him. So the events on the Mount were also helping prepare His friends for what was coming, giving them the means to comfort, solace and understanding. Which is of course, Jesus Christ Himself.So, the purpose of the transfiguration was for Jesus to Reveal who He is. Being fully human and fully divine, He revealed His divinity. Jesus IS GOD, and as such, did not need to take on power or divinity, as that is Who HE IS.
LeSellers Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Once again you refuse to accept that the Three Nephites, Moses, and John the Apostle are immortal. If they are not immortal how are 4 of them still waking the Earth this day?They are not "immortal", in the sense that they can never die, but they are not "mortal" as we commonly understand the word. They will have to, and may already have done so, since Moses, for instance, has filled the role his transfiguration was intended for (restoring the keys of the Priesthood pertaining to the gathering of Israel
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 As for God's suddenly becoming a "respecter of persons", yes, He did, although it's a bit difficult to see how it was "sudden". Christ, as the Son of the Father, was special, and Father did "respect" Him. Jesus was the only One of all of His children Who never rebelled against Him. If there ever had been another such one, God would probably have "respected" him, too. But we'll never know, will we?I am sorry but this is a not acceptable to me, my God is not a respecter of persons, everyone is equal in his eyes. You can believe what you want but I believe in the Scriptures which say all (not all but Christ, and hey why no throw in the Holy Ghost, or Adam, or Lucifer, or Joseph Smith, or anyone for that matter) are equal before God. That he is not a respecter of persons, believe what you will but I believe the scriptures!Your opinion is contradictory to the very nature of God, if God respects one person over another he is not perfect, he is a bigot. My God is not a bigot, he neither respects, nor prefers anyone over anyone else. Christ was chosen to be our Savior, Christ was to live a mortal life just like we were, he too needed to be tempted, feel pain, feel joy, and make choices that effected his (and our) eternal progression. He is our leader (and by his own declaration our servant) he was not whole from the beginning but went from grace to grace until he became whole. (See D&C 93:12). He had to gain immortality just like we do, the only difference is his calling as our Savior required him to become immortal and pierce the veil in his mortal existence. He needed to do this in order to be worthy to willingly lay down his immortality to purchase our salvation from Death and Sin. He wasn't born whole, but had to become whole, he needed to be mortal like us face temptation, hunger, pain, ect, he then was transfigured into immortality and prepared to be our eternal sacrifice.I am not saying those who are temporarily transfigured to see Christ or angels are immortal forever, like you imply. There is examples of temporary transfiguration in the scriptures, this state of immortality obviously is just that, they temporarily transition into a immortal state then return to a moral state. This does not mean that those who were fully transfigured like the People of the City of Enoch which ascended to heaven to return with Christ, Elijah, Moses, The Three Nephites, the Apostle John are not permenately immortal. They will never suffer the pain of death, the scriptures speak of this repeatedly. Just as those who live during the millennium will never feel the pain of death but change from mortality to immortality in a twinkle of an eye. You can accept or reject the teachings of the restored gospel, I have no problem with that. We each have to make this decision in our lives, what I do have a problem with is people trying to change the message of the Restored Gospel to fit what they want it to be. This is not the straight and narrow way to salvation, but the path to confusion and deception.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 He could die, since Mary was mortal and He had that gene from her, but did not need to die, because His Father was immortal and He inherited that gene from Him. Christ's ability to die has nothing to do with Mary, Christ says his Father commanded that he had the power to lay down and take back up his life. Christ never said Mary gave him the "gene" to die, and God gave him the "gene" not to die. Christ would of told us this had this been the case, it is not. I completely disagree with you and so does the New Testament in my opinion.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Jeffery R. Holland explains this in these terms:I agree that a translated being is a permenately transfigured being, I believe this is what Elder Holland implies with his comment. Translation is the result of transfiguration, for simplification we call a temporary state transfiguration and a permanent state a translated being. One becomes a translated being though through transfiguration.
Calm Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 I am sorry but this is a not acceptable to me, my God is not a respecter of persons, everyone is equal in his eyes. How do you interpret this section of verse:Abraham 3:19And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am amore intelligent than they all........ 21I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the aworks which my hands have made, wherein my bwisdom excelleth them all, for I crule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen. 22Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the aintelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the bnoble and great ones; 23And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast achosen before thou wast born.
Mark Beesley Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 1. Immortal means you do no die. Unlike you stated 3 Nephites, John, are immortal since they still walk the Earth this day.But they will die, insofar as their spirits will leave their bodies, even if only momentarily. Did you take the time to read McConkie's article on Translated Beings?2. Christ needed to be born the Only Begotten Son of God so he could be perfect.I don't know how you can say this with a straight face when you are so adamant that God is no respecter of persons. Apparently, according to your theology, God gave one person a special gift so he would never sin, and withheld that gift from the rest of us. There is nothing in the scriptures to suggest that Christ was sinless because He was the Son of God. Are you suggesting that Christ did not have Free Agency to sin?Sorry, LDS Guy, but you are out of step, and out of harmony with the Restored Gospel. LeSeller's response to you is spot-on.But, consider the ramifications of what you are arguing. If the transfiguration of Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration was the same "immortality" that you claim for the Three Nepites, Moses, and John, then here is what we are left with. That kind of transfiguration means the transfigured person is immuned from bodily injury. The Three Nepites, for example, were thrown into fire, but could not be burned. See 3 Nephi 28:19-22.Now, if Christ underwent a similar change on the Mount, then the scourging by Pilate would have caused Christ no pain. But we know it did. It made him weak he could not carry his cross. He would have not suffered any unpleasant physical sensations on the Cross, but we know he did, because he exclaimed that he was thirsty. And all of the physical sufferering that attended the atonement, in addition to the spiritual torment, the sweating of great drops of blood in the Garden . . . none of that would have occurred had Christ's transfiguration on the Mount effected the change that you claim. Your argument nullfies the atonement in great part.I would suggest that you talk with your priesthood leaders about some of these things. You don't seem to trust what you are getting here.
TAO Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Once again you refuse to accept that the Three Nephites, Moses, and John the Apostle are immortal. If they are not immortal how are 4 of them still waking the Earth this day?Just so you know... we don't actually know if they are upon the Earth right now or not (though I suspect they may be). They were, for a time, taken away from the Earth, and it's the Lord's will when they will be upon the Earth.Also, the three Nephites are note quite immortal, I think... their age is limited to the time it takes for Christ to finish all his works, I believe. Then, they will be celestialized... if I remember correctly. However, if they were not to be celestialized, they would die, I think.LDS guy, if I may say so, chill a bit, and do not worry so much when others disagree with you. Reason with them calmly... and if you are wrong, admit you are wrong, if they are wrong, and don't admit it, let it go. I think it would serve you well, if you don't mind me saying.Best Wishes,TAO
Calm Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Just so you know... we don't actually know if they are upon the Earth right now or not (though I suspect they may be). They were, for a time, taken away from the Earth, and it's the Lord's will when they will be upon the Earth.Also, the three Nephites are note quite immortal, I think... their age is limited to the time it takes for Christ to finish all his works, I believe. Then, they will be celestialized... if I remember correctly. However, if they were not to be celestialized, they would die, I think.LDS guy, if I may say so, chill a bit, and do not worry so much when others disagree with you. Reason with them calmly... and if you are wrong, admit you are wrong, if they are wrong, and don't admit it, let it go. I think it would serve you well, if you don't mind me saying.Best Wishes,TAOWell said, Tao. This board is not for determining what must be doctrine for the LDS faithful, that venue takes place somewhere else. Here is just a group of people who like to discuss ideas and implications of those ideas. The scriptures teaches us we learn line upon line so no one here has a monopoly on truth, we should all be cautious about assuming we are right and everyone else is wrong. Often it is not so much right and wrong, but rather the language we insist on using and this can lead to confusion if others use language differently. If one isn't being entertained and informed in positive ways, but strained and 'deformed' by the interaction with others on this board, perhaps it's time to step back and reevaluate what one wants out of the board or even go looking for a different style of board or blog that fits one's personality and writing style better. I was taught that when the time came, the Nephites and John would experience death, but so quickly as to be 'in a twinkling of an eye'. They were not seen as immortal, merely protected from accident, illness and aging. This may have been a wrong interpretation of the teachings that we have, but it's their salvation that's at issue, not mine so I am not too much concerned.This is based on this verse:but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from amortality to bimmortalityIOW, it seems pretty straightforward that prior to God's 2nd coming, the Nephites are mortal, after he comes and changes them, they will be immortal.Other scriptures tell of being transfigured and then not transfigured, since immortality is taught to be an unending state since the body is never separated from the spirit again, something that is temporary might be similar to immortality but not identical...such would be needed to endure the glorified immortal presence of God, but there does not seem to be anything inherent in the reason for transfiguration occurring that the individual takes on actual immortality (and not just a semblance of it),
Calm Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 We currently have a Telestial body, which is mortal, a Terrestrial body has more power and glory than a Telestial body, one of those powers is immortality (not eternal life). Going back and rereading to see if I understand better LG's point.LD, in your view what kind of bodies do those in the Telestial Kingdom and Outerdarkness have? It would seem to me they will not be given Terrestrial or Celestial bodies at the time of Final Judgment and so according to your statement above, it would appear you do not see anyone of less glory than Terrestrial as "immortal". Am I missing something?
Calm Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 According to lds.org, the purpose of transfiguration is so that man can endure the presence of heavenly things:TransfigurationSee also Jesus Christ; Keys of the Priesthood.The condition of persons who are temporarily changed in appearance and nature
ERMD Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 I think everyone but LDS Guy understands what is going on here.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 , it would appear you do not see anyone of less glory than Terrestrial as "immortal". Am I missing something?I never said this! This is the danger of putting words in someones mouth. I said that transfigured beings enter into a terrestrial state, I didn't say that terrestrial and above were immortals or anything to that nature. Of course, all (except the 1/3 of the heavenly host that rebelled) receive immortal bodies from their resurrection through the atonement of Christ. For those that receive immortality before the first or resurrection they receive the glory of the terrestrial kingdom, those who are not still on the Earth reside in the terrestrial kingdom until the day of judgement. They have more power than morals have, but cannot yet receive a celestial body because one can only receive a celestial body once they are judged by Christ. This is all LDS theology, you can find this stuff on FAIRS, and all across the web.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 Well said, Tao. This board is not for determining what must be doctrine for the LDS faithful, that venue takes place somewhere else. Who said I am trying to determine LDS doctrine, what I am doing is not letting people act like they can ignore what I said and repeat the same thing they just said again and act like that makes my points irrelevant. I have no problem with people no agreeing with the theology (not doctrine, doctrine is all based in the scriptures we are dealing with interpretation of the scriptures) I follow. I do have a problem, with people twisting what I say and/or trying to discuss what I said while ignoring half of what I have posted.
Calm Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 I never said this! This is the danger of putting words in someones mouth. I didn't want to put words in your mouth, that's why I asked.This is all LDS theology, you can find this stuff on FAIRS, and all across the web.I am quite familiar with FAIRS, haven't seen it myself.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 But they will die, insofar as their spirits will leave their bodies, even if only momentarily. Did you take the time to read McConkie's article on Translated Beings?I don't know how you can say this with a straight face when you are so adamant that God is no respecter of persons. Apparently, according to your theology, God gave one person a special gift so he would never sin, and withheld that gift from the rest of us. There is nothing in the scriptures to suggest that Christ was sinless because He was the Son of God. Are you suggesting that Christ did not have Free Agency to sin?What? Please if your going to make things, please at least, don't try and act like, it is something I said. I never said God gave Christ a special gift, in fact I don't recall ever mentioning the word gift at all. Men will sin the scriptures tell us that, anyone born of two mortal parents will sin as we are told in Romans. Christ is not born of two mortal parents though, he is the son of a perfect and immortal father and a mortal mother, because of this he is not bound to fall short like we are. He still can sin, but he choose to live a sinless life. It is not a gift, it is his nature are the Son of God.
Calm Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 Who said I am trying to determine LDS doctrineWho said I was talking about you?
LDS Guy 1986 Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 I didn't want to put words in your mouth, that's why I asked.I am quite familiar with FAIRS, haven't seen it myself.Since when is an accusation (such as "it would appear you do not see anyone of less glory than Terrestrial as "immortal"") a question?If you wanted to ask a question you could of, but, you didn't you made an accusation by putting word in my mouth.
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