PaulBoyerFan Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Do the leaders not know about the hat thing?***Sure they do, Beth. "The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:
beth Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 [quote name=%2526%252339%253BPaulBoyerFan%2526%252339%253B timestamp='1294501401' post='1208962023'I don't mean t disillusion, Beth, but the LDS has long presented a Disney-ified view of its history.
USU78 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Hmmmm, how did it really happen? Why was he 'lynched'?He was assassinated by mobsters while in Illinois custody for a number of reasons, depends upon who you're talking to.Have you checked out Rough Stone Rolling? Your questions are addressed there in balanced fashion. Are you uninterested in views other than the Tanners?
PaulBoyerFan Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 "Hmmmm, how did it really happen? Why was he 'lynched'?"Well, here's the timeline, Beth:June 7, 1844 The "Nauvoo Expositor" published its first edition. The newspaper alleged that Smith was a fallen prophet, as evidenced by his doctrine of plural marriage among other theological innovations.June 10, 1844 The Nauvoo City Council declared the Expositor to be a public nuisance and issued an order for the abatement of the nuisance. Smith as mayor ordered the City Marshall to destroy its press. This action served to increase opposition to Smith in the surrounding area, given that the Illinois state constitution specifically prohibited the limitation of the press because of its criticisms of public officials."22. The printing presses shall be free to every person, who undertakes to examine the proceedings of the general assembly or of any branch of government; and no law shall ever be made to restrain the right thereof. The free communication of thoughts and opinions is one of the invaluable rights of man, and every citizen may freely speak, write, and print on any subject, being responsible for the abuse of that liberty. "23. In prosecutions for the publication of papers investigating the official conduct of officers, or of men acting in a public capacity, or where the matter published is proper for public information, the truth thereof may be given in evidence. And in all indictments for libels, the jury shall have the right of determining both the law and the fact, under the direction of the court as in other cases." (Art. VIII, cl. 22
why me Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 "Hmmmm, how did it really happen? Why was he 'lynched'?"Well, here's the timeline, Beth:June 7, 1844 The "Nauvoo Expositor" published its first edition. The newspaper alleged that Smith was a fallen prophet, as evidenced by his doctrine of plural marriage among other theological innovations.June 10, 1844 The Nauvoo City Council declared the Expositor to be a public nuisance and issued an order for the abatement of the nuisance. Smith as mayor ordered the City Marshall to destroy its press. This action served to increase opposition to Smith in the surrounding area, given that the Illinois state constitution specifically prohibited the limitation of the press because of its criticisms of public officials."22. The printing presses shall be free to every person, who undertakes to examine the proceedings of the general assembly or of any branch of government; and no law shall ever be made to restrain the right thereof. The free communication of thoughts and opinions is one of the invaluable rights of man, and every citizen may freely speak, write, and print on any subject, being responsible for the abuse of that liberty. "23. In prosecutions for the publication of papers investigating the official conduct of officers, or of men acting in a public capacity, or where the matter published is proper for public information, the truth thereof may be given in evidence. And in all indictments for libels, the jury shall have the right of determining both the law and the fact, under the direction of the court as in other cases." (Art. VIII, cl. 22
CA Steve Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Another question - do they have discussions like this in the church meetings? Can you ask questions about the translation stuff or is that not really a good idea?You can ask questions of anyone however the church places a strong emphasis on faith promoting study. Church meetings in classroom settings have correlated manuals that are to be followed for instruction. The questions you are raising would normally not be part of classroom teaching.
why me Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Hmmmm, how did it really happen? Why was he 'lynched'?It is quite often forgotten that at the time of Joseph Smith's murder, he was running for president. This gets lost in the shuffle as critics try to blame Joseph himself. One can argue that it was also a political murder by antimormon mobs that had been riled up by neighboring newspapers that would publish antimormon trash.
why me Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 You can ask questions of anyone however the church places a strong emphasis on faith promoting study. Church meetings in classroom settings have correlated manuals that are to be followed for instruction. The questions you are raising would normally not be part of classroom teaching.It would depend on the lesson and what is being studied. For example questions could have been asked when lds members were studying about what Joseph Smith taught. The translation process would be faith promoting study. There is nothing in the translation process that is not faith promoting.
CA Steve Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Hmmmm, how did it really happen? Why was he 'lynched'?In this time in the South, riots and mob rule, without the interference of authorities, were common. Rioters acted with impunity.
USU78 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 June 7, 1844 The "Nauvoo Expositor" published its first edition. The newspaper alleged that Smith was a fallen prophet, as evidenced by his doctrine of plural marriage among other theological innovations.True. Excep that PBF chooses not to give the whole picture.June 10, 1844 The Nauvoo City Council declared the Expositor to be a public nuisance and issued an order for the abatement of the nuisance. Smith as mayor ordered the City Marshall to destroy its press. This action served to increase opposition to Smith in the surrounding area, given that the Illinois state constitution specifically prohibited the limitation of the press because of its criticisms of public officials.True, but incomplete. At the time, this was not unheard of method of abating press nuisances. The official action was plainly wrong under present jurisprudence. At the time? Not so clear, and the City Council engaged a local attorney to research the issue before acting. The attorney's opinion said that spiking the press was okay based upon the finding. The remedy if they turned out to be wrong was damages paid by the City to the owner(s) of the press and uncirculated papers.June 18, 1844 Due to increasing tension between Mormons in Nauvoo and residents of surrounding areas, Smith declared martial law in Nauvoo and called out the Nauvoo Legion.Tensions included shootings, rapes, assaults, burnings, and the like by the fine folks of Illinois. "Increasing tension" makes it sound like somebody broke a dish.June 23, 1844 Smith and his brother Hyrum left Nauvoo but returned after being accused of cowardice in fleeing from the city.Again with the incomplete picture. They'd been looking at relocating West for some time. They'd had to flee New York, Ohio, and Missouri (twice) because of "tensions." JSJr and his brother had been in hiding, on and off, for years. PBF chooses to look at the alleged statements of one or two people and not the entire record.June 25, 1844 Smith surrendered to authorities to stand trial on charges of riot, related to the destruction of the Expositor press, and the capital offense of treason, for declaring martial law in Nauvoo.Yes. Tell us what makes up the charge of treason against the State of Illinois at the time, PBF. Make the prima facie case that would support a probable cause finding necessary to issue an arrest warrant. I didn't think so. You also screw up the timing. They were arrested on criminal charges related to the press' destruction. Only when they discovered that they could never make charges stick did they add the nonsensical charges of treason for which JSJr and HS could not be awarded release on bail. Ensured they'd be kept in jail outside the county in which the alleged offenses occurred. So they could be murdered.June 27, 1844 After the protection of Smith and his companions was left to a hostile local militia, an armed mob stormed Carthage Jail and killed Smith.Tricked out as Indians so they wouldn't be recognized as militiamen representing the police power of the State of Illinois.PBF paints a picture inspired by Dali. Best you can say about it is that it looks sorta like the world in which actual people live . . . except their faces are melting off and puddling on the ground with little fishes with the faces of the Trojan Women swimming in the puddles.
CA Steve Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 It would depend on the lesson and what is being studied. For example questions could have been asked when lds members were studying about what Joseph Smith taught. The translation process would be faith promoting study. There is nothing in the translation process that is not faith promoting.Maybe, but I doubt any such classroom instruction would include in-depth discussions on exactly how the translation process occurred. I doubt that the face down in the hat with the seer stones inside, or whether or not the plates were even open, are part of the manuals, but then I have not read all the manuals. I do not think the process of translation itself is really all that important to most members. The emphasis in the church is more on what was translated not how it was done.
beth Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Maybe, but I doubt any such classroom instruction would include in-depth discussions on exactly how the translation process occurred. I doubt that the face down in the hat with the seer stones inside, or whether or not the plates were even open, are part of the manuals, but then I have not read all the manuals. I do not think the process of translation itself is really all that important to most members. The emphasis in the church is more on what was translated not how it was done.Well as someone interested in the church but not a member, I would want to know everything about it before I decided to join or not. I am confused as to the purpose of the plates. If as some of the posters said he used a stone in a hat to translate what was on the plates, then obviously he wasn't even using the plates to translate with. So why did these ancient Indians bother writing down their history for thousands of years when they weren't even used to bring forth their history when the church claims to have restored God's church?
cdowis Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Well as someone interested in the church but not a member, I would want to know everything about it before I decided to join or not.Then you will never join the church. Conversion comes from a spiritual witness from your Creator through the Holy Ghost. You will never "learn everything" so that you will have an intectual conviction. I am confused as to the purpose of the plates. If as some of the posters said he used a stone in a hat to translate what was on the plates, then obviously he wasn't even using the plates to translate with. So why did these ancient Indians bother writing down their history for thousands of years when they weren't even used to bring forth their history when the church claims to have restored God's church?At the beginning he was using the plates, but later, as he became skilled at the translation process, the physical presence of the plates were unnecessary.Think of it like learning to ride a bicycle. After awhile, training wheels are unnecessary.
beth Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 >"At the beginning he was using the plates, but later, as he became skilled at the translation process, the physical presence of the plates were unnecessary.>Think of it like learning to ride a bicycle. After awhile, training wheels are unnecessary."So did Joseph Smith learn to be able to translate without a stone or did he always use some device to communicate with God?
CA Steve Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 >"At the beginning he was using the plates, but later, as he became skilled at the translation process, the physical presence of the plates were unnecessary.>Think of it like learning to ride a bicycle. After awhile, training wheels are unnecessary."So did Joseph Smith learn to be able to translate without a stone or did he always use some device to communicate with God?Joseph stopped using the stones and there is no more mention of Oliver Cowdery using the rod.
LeSellers Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 So was it legal for Joseph Smith to have destroyed the printing press?Yes, it was legal, but you have made some errors in your question. It was not Joseph Smith who destroyed the press, it was the city marshal, acting under the orders of the city council, of whom Joseph Smith was the Mayor. While those who owned the press were unhappy (or worse) there was a simply way for them to get their property restored: go to court and sue the city. But they were not unhappy by all measures: one of their buddies in Carthage (the county seat) bragged that Joseph would never leave the jail where the local militia (and soon-to-be assassins
cinepro Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 The translation process would be faith promoting study. There is nothing in the translation process that is not faith promoting.That's a pretty bold statement. Especially considering the many different kinds of LDS in the world.
why me Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 That's a pretty bold statement. Especially considering the many different kinds of LDS in the world.I think that the hat translation is faith promoting, especially as it was described by the people who witnessed it. It is quite a feat to do. I know that Dan Vogel has his theory and others but I still think that Joseph's translation process with the hat defies understanding. If he had such a talent for writing books, he could have been a millionaire. Think of what he could have written with rough drafts and a little literary training and without the persecution.
cinepro Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 I think that the hat translation is faith promoting, especially as it was described by the people who witnessed it. It is quite a feat to do. I know that Dan Vogel has his theory and others but I still think that Joseph's translation process with the hat defies understanding. If he had such a talent for writing books, he could have been a millionaire. Think of what he could have written with rough drafts and a little literary training and without the persecution.While not exactly similar, stories like those of Patience Worth are interesting enough that I wouldn't say Joseph Smith's situation "defies understanding". Depending on the criteria, the output Pearl Curran even exceeds Joseph Smith's, with many more witnesses and over a much greater period of time.No verification was ever made that Patience Worth actually lived in the 1600s and yet experts who studied Pearl Curran doubted that she could have produced the works attributed to the ghost on her own. She was a woman of limited education with no knowledge of the language used or the history and subject matter that was written of by the alleged Patience Worth. Pearl simply could not have created the works of literary quality that have become known as the works of her spiritual counterpart.
why me Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 So was it legal for Joseph Smith to have destroyed the printing press? I would think the guys that owned the press wouldn't be too happy about it.Have you been reading my posts? Mormon presses were destroyed and nothing happened to the people who destroyed the mormon presses. But then again, mormon homes were burned and destroyed and nothing happened to the people who did the burning and destruction. The law at that time could be a little arbitrary. However, critics avoid mentioning the destruction of mormon property up to that time and the fear that was in the town of another sacking of homes and property. When people live in persecution, it does affect them pychologically over time. The people of Nauvoo were no different as human beings who suffered much persecution and destruction. And the neighoring presses were riling up the mobs for another go at the mormons.
beth Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Joseph stopped using the stones and there is no more mention of Oliver Cowdery using the rod.The rod? What's this rod?
beth Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Have you been reading my posts? Mormon presses were destroyed and nothing happened to the people who destroyed the mormon presses. But then again, mormon homes were burned and destroyed and nothing happened to the people who did the burning and destruction. The law at that time could be a little arbitrary. However, critics avoid mentioning the destruction of mormon property up to that time and the fear that was in the town of another sacking of homes and property. When people live in persecution, it does affect them pychologically over time. The people of Nauvoo were no different as human beings who suffered much persecution and destruction. And the neighoring presses were riling up the mobs for another go at the mormons.Well it seems there was plenty of persecution and wrong-doing by both sides. Does anyone disagree with that? The Mormons received persecution but they persecuted as well - like what I've been hearing about these Danites and Mormons at Mountain Meadows. And these battles like Crooked Creek anbd Zion's March. This makes studying this religion even more complex and confusing.
beth Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 beth: "Well as someone interested in the church but not a member, I would want to know everything about it before I decided to join or not."cdowis: "Then you will never join the church. Conversion comes from a spiritual witness from your Creator through the Holy Ghost. You will never "learn everything" so that you will have an intectual conviction."So what kind os spiritual witness did you get if you don't mind me asking? I've prayed about the BofM and I can't tell if it's historically true or not just from praying and thinking about it.
nicolasconnault Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Well it seems there was plenty of persecution and wrong-doing by both sides. Does anyone disagree with that? The Mormons received persecution but they persecuted as well - like what I've been hearing about these Danites and Mormons at Mountain Meadows. And these battles like Crooked Creek anbd Zion's March. This makes studying this religion even more complex and confusing.You could also say that there was plenty of persecution and wrong-doing by both sides in the case of the Nazis and the Jews. This is not a very strong argument against the Jews in that particular context.
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