Lost 116 Pages follow-up Question to Poll

[ELF1024]

Please do not take offense at this, but how can you be sure he wasn't making it up?

Why would you believe anything that Joseph Smith wrote over some other self proclaimed prophet?

I will refer you back to part of what my wife said...

and with the witness of the Holy Ghost, come to a knowledge that what was being taught was true.

As a human being, we can't be sure that Joseph Smith was a Prophet any more than anyone else who has claimed to be a Prophet. However, as James 1:5-6 says, you need only excersize faith, and pray with a real want to know, and the Lord will make the truth known to you.

How do we know the Bible is true? We asked God, and we got his answer. How do we know the Book of Mormon is true? Same way.

There is no way of proving thru the means of men; that the Bible is the actual word of God, as we cannot prove the God exists. We cannot prove the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God either.

Religion is a personal thing, and ultimately, the decison to worship God in which ever manner you choose, is between you and God. We believe we are right, but I don't know a single person who doesn't believe that they are right.

[PaulBoyerFan]

Please do not take offense at this, but how can you be sure he wasn't making it up?

Why would you believe anything that Joseph Smith wrote over some other self proclaimed prophet?

Come on, Beth, why wouldn't you believe Smith? He engaged after all in treasure hunting, by his own account, and was tried for this offense is a rather comical proceeding. He was convicted of bank fraud. He was lynched by an armed mob after his role in the destruction of the printing press of the newspaper that threatened to detail the circumstances of his numerous polygamous and illegal relationships.

Doesn't this just scream credibility to you?

[ELF1024]

Come on, Beth, why wouldn't you believe Smith? He engaged after all in treasure hunting, by his own account, and was tried for this offense is a rather comical proceeding. He was convicted of bank fraud. He was lynched by an armed mob after his role in the destruction of the printing press of the newspaper that threatened to detail the circumstances of his numerous polygamous and illegal relationships.

Doesn't this just scream credibility to you?

... and enter in one of the local Anti-LDS members of the board...

[Pahoran]

Please do not take offense at this, but how can you be sure he wasn't making it up?

Naturally, everyone who accepts the Doctrine and Covenants as scripture (that I have discussed it with, anyway) has considered the possibility that Joseph might have just been making it all up.

We are reasonably intelligent people, you know. And contrary to some assiduously propagated falsehoods, we are not trained to "submissive habits of thought," or anything like it.

And so, I suppose it might be possible that Joseph made up a bunch of bogus revelations in order to make people take notice of him; however, since the ostensible purpose of said revelations was to enhance his own standing, it seems at least marginally counterproductive for him to include stern rebukes and even sterner warnings directed towards himself. Since he said God said that if he didn't watch himself he would fall, that kind of cuts the ground out from under him if he later tries to claim infallibility, doesn't it?

Likewise, if he was making up these revelations in order to serve his own ends, one has to wonder why those revelations were so often inconvenient, uncomfortable and dangerous to him.

One might suppose, for example, that after having lost two or three of his own children, due at least in part to the hardships of continually moving around, that Joseph might make up a revelation telling him to stop moving; but the marching orders kept right on coming, and the cost to him did not noticeably abate.

Likewise, when it became clear to him that his religious claims were going to cost him his life, it might have seemed like a good idea for him to downplay them, if not walk away from them altogether. Instead, he kept right on with those claims.

So yes, it might be possible for him to make such things up; but it hardly seems likely.

Why would you believe anything that Joseph Smith wrote over some other self proclaimed prophet?

Because he wasn't merely "self proclaimed."

Regards,

Pahoran

[beth]

Come on, Beth, why wouldn't you believe Smith? He engaged after all in treasure hunting, by his own account, and was tried for this offense is a rather comical proceeding. He was convicted of bank fraud. He was lynched by an armed mob after his role in the destruction of the printing press of the newspaper that threatened to detail the circumstances of his numerous polygamous and illegal relationships.

Doesn't this just scream credibility to you?

... and enter in one of the local Anti-LDS members of the board...

Oh? Anti-LDS? Meaning he is against your church?

Which of those things that Paul posted are false? Those are some pretty bad things.

[Pahoran]

Come on, Beth, why wouldn't you believe Smith? He engaged after all in treasure hunting, by his own account, and was tried for this offense is a rather comical proceeding.

False. The hearing was not a trial.

He was convicted of bank fraud.

False. He was fined for technical breaches of banking regulations, not "bank fraud."

He was lynched by an armed mob

Of your ideological bedfellows

after his role in the destruction of the printing press of the newspaper

A 19th century tabloid and scandal-sheet

that threatened to detail the circumstances of his numerous polygamous and illegal relationships.

In the most lurid and provocative terms they could think of.

Doesn't this just scream credibility to you?

His credibility at all times exceeded yours.

Regards,

Pahoran

[beth]

Naturally, everyone who accepts the Doctrine and Covenants as scripture (that I have discussed it with, anyway) has considered the possibility that Joseph might have just been making it all up.

We are reasonably intelligent people, you know. And contrary to some assiduously propagated falsehoods, we are not trained to "submissive habits of thought," or anything like it.

And so, I suppose it might be possible that Joseph made up a bunch of bogus revelations in order to make people take notice of him; however, since the ostensible purpose of said revelations was to enhance his own standing, it seems at least marginally counterproductive for him to include stern rebukes and even sterner warnings directed towards himself. Since he said God said that if he didn't watch himself he would fall, that kind of cuts the ground out from under him if he later tries to claim infallibility, doesn't it?

Likewise, if he was making up these revelations in order to serve his own ends, one has to wonder why those revelations were so often inconvenient, uncomfortable and dangerous to him.

One might suppose, for example, that after having lost two or three of his own children, due at least in part to the hardships of continually moving around, that Joseph might make up a revelation telling him to stop moving; but the marching orders kept right on coming, and the cost to him did not noticeably abate.

Likewise, when it became clear to him that his religious claims were going to cost him his life, it might have seemed like a good idea for him to downplay them, if not walk away from them altogether. Instead, he kept right on with those claims.

So yes, it might be possible for him to make such things up; but it hardly seems likely.

Because he wasn't merely "self proclaimed."

Regards,

Pahoran

Thank you for your very eloquently written reply.

I do not mean to offend anyone here. Just curious is all.

Perhaps Joseph Smith was affected by a mental disorder? Wherein he actually believed he was being visited by God?

May I ask what is your view of Muhammad? His story of the Koran is similar to Joseph Smith and his gold plates to book of mormon story.

Where is it recorded in the history of the Mormon church where God tells Joseph Smith he will be a prophet? I did not see that in his first vision account.

[beth]

False. The hearing was not a trial.

False. He was fined for technical breaches of banking regulations, not "bank fraud."

Of your ideological bedfellows

A 19th century tabloid and scandal-sheet

In the most lurid and provocative terms they could think of.

His credibility at all times exceeded yours.

Regards,

Pahoran

Wait, wait, wait a second here folks!

Was Joseph Smith involved in the destruction of a printing press?

May I see the contents of the papers printed by this press about his polygamy? Were the reports of his involvement in polygamy false?

Was he a polygamist or not?

I thought polygamy was against the law?

[Vance]

I will admit I have never heard of this "Urim and Thummim" in the Bible.

Not surprising.

Ex. 28:30

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Thank you for your very eloquently written reply.

I do not mean to offend anyone here. Just curious is all.

None taken.

Perhaps Joseph Smith was affected by a mental disorder? Wherein he actually believed he was being visited by God?

Oh good I love a good alternative theory that explains JS and the BoM.

Lets say you are correct, that JS had a mental disorder. How do you accoutn for the 3 and 8 witness of the BoM? How do you account for Sidney Rigdon and Martin Harris? They never denied that the BoM was true scripture.

May I ask what is your view of Muhammad? His story of the Koran is similar to Joseph Smith and his gold plates to book of mormon story.

Well for one there were witness that testified of JS. There really is nothing like that with Mohammad. ANd the Koran claims that it is true because it is self evident.

Where is it recorded in the history of the Mormon church where God tells Joseph Smith he will be a prophet? I did not see that in his first vision account.

That is because it is not in the first vision account. That is found in the D&C.

[Pahoran]

Thank you for your very eloquently written reply.

I do not mean to offend anyone here. Just curious is all.

Perhaps Joseph Smith was affected by a mental disorder? Wherein he actually believed he was being visited by God?

Again, that's a possibility that I and many others have considered. It fails to account for the fact that several other witnesses claimed to have participated in his hierophanies and theophanies. It's one thing to be deluded into thinking that an angel visited him and gave him a book of golden plates; it's quite another to actually produce a large English text, and convince others that they were seeing angels, and actually produce a large physical artifact (i.e. the plates) which still others get to see and handle in entirely non-miraculous circumstances; all that can hardly be explained as one man's delusion.

May I ask what is your view of Muhammad? His story of the Koran is similar to Joseph Smith and his gold plates to book of mormon story.

I claim no expertise on Muhammad. Dan Peterson, a sometime participant here, has stated that he finds the parallels between them to be few and trivial, while the differences are many and significant. Dan, BTW, is a professor of Islamic studies, so he might just know a thing or two on the subject.

Where is it recorded in the history of the Mormon church where God tells Joseph Smith he will be a prophet? I did not see that in his first vision account.

Please see:

Joseph Smith - History:

33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.

Note also that this contains a prophecy that we see literally fulfilled, daily, in this forum; and indeed, on this very thread.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Wait, wait, wait a second here folks!

Was Joseph Smith involved in the destruction of a printing press?

May I see the contents of the papers printed by this press about his polygamy? Were the reports of his involvement in polygamy false?

Was he a polygamist or not?

I thought polygamy was against the law?

He was a polygamist.

I will leave it to some one else to go into the details of the Expositer priniting press.

[Vance]

Wait, wait, wait a second here folks!

Was Joseph Smith involved in the destruction of a printing press?

May I see the contents of the papers printed by this press about his polygamy? Were the reports of his involvement in polygamy false?

Was he a polygamist or not?

I thought polygamy was against the law?

http://www.christianpolygamy.com/

[beth]

Again, that's a possibility that I and many others have considered. It fails to account for the fact that several other witnesses claimed to have participated in his hierophanies and theophanies. It's one thing to be deluded into thinking that an angel visited him and gave him a book of golden plates; it's quite another to actually produce a large English text, and convince others that they were seeing angels, and actually produce a large physical artifact (i.e. the plates) which still others get to see and handle in entirely non-miraculous circumstances; all that can hardly be explained as one man's delusion.

I claim no expertise on Muhammad. Dan Peterson, a sometime participant here, has stated that he finds the parallels between them to be few and trivial, while the differences are many and significant. Dan, BTW, is a professor of Islamic studies, so he might just know a thing or two on the subject.

Please see:

Your writing style is very nice.

This Moroni messenger, did not say he was to be a prophet, only that he had some work for him to do.

Note also that this contains a prophecy that we see literally fulfilled, daily, in this forum; and indeed, on this very thread.

Regards,

Pahoran

This history was written by Joseph Smith, correct? When was it written?

When was his account of this Moroni visit recorded? Before or after his problems of being a prophet?

[beth]

http://www.christianpolygamy.com/

Oh my I thought that the fundamentalist Mormons were the only church involved in polygamy.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Oh my I thought that the fundamentalist Mormons were the only church involved in polygamy.

Polygamy is not such a big deal, I think the reason people have a big deal with it is becase we are such a monogomous society. Most of the world practice polygamy.

[ELF1024]

Oh my I thought that the fundamentalist Mormons were the only church involved in polygamy.

The LDS Church has not practiced polygamy in over 100 years. Polygamy is practiced by several Churches... off the top of my head, the FLDS, and Islam (allows up to three wives).

May I ask what is your view of Muhammad?

I have a very low opinion of Muhammad, but that is my own personal opinion and should not be taken as the view of the Church as a whole.

[beth]

Polygamy is not such a big deal, I think the reason people have a big deal with it is becase we are such a monogomous society.

You must be a man.

Most of the world practice polygamy.

Really?

Most of means "the majority of; nearly all of "

Are you stating that the majority or nearly all of the world's population are polygamists??

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You must be a man.

Of course only a man wants more than one partner.

Really?

Most of means "the majority of; nearly all of "

Are you stating that the majority or nearly all of the world's population are polygamists??

I should correct my statement that most of the world through out history practiced polygamy. Currently, I would still say that polygamy is quite rempent even in our society. They are just called affairs. That of course is slightly different than polygamy. Lots of people have lots of different partner through out their lives.

[USU78]

So usu78, you are saying Joseph Smith did not always use the stone to translate?

That's correct . . . and the translation of the Book of Mormon was a relatively short-lived activity, ending in 1829. JSJr claimed other revelations, as you've seen referred to. He used either the Urim & Thummim/Nephite Seer Stones and his own Seer Stone early on and did not do so later in life as he matured. A picture emerges of someone who needed tangible objects to aid him in his youth and young manhood, and who relied less and less on them as time went on. He is reported even during the BoM translation process to translate even in the absence of the Plates.

I suggest, if these issues interest you, that you take a gander at Rough Stone Rolling, which should be available in any fair-sized library, for a full, fair and accurate biography of JSJr.

USU "We don't expect our prophets, or old-timey ones, to have stayed wrapped in cellophane their whole lives long" 78

[Pahoran]

Your writing style is very nice.

Thank you for saying so.

This Moroni messenger, did not say he was to be a prophet, only that he had some work for him to do.

And the nature of that work subsequently unfolded. I would invite you to read Joseph's entire account, which you can find Here.

This history was written by Joseph Smith, correct? When was it written?

In May of 1838; approximately a generation closer to the events than the New Testament Gospels are.

When was his account of this Moroni visit recorded? Before or after his problems of being a prophet?

After. Yes, I see where you are going. I would point out that most small religious movements tend to die out in the first generation; Moroni's prophecy was far from being a sure thing.

You must be a man.

No doubt you intended to pay a compliment by that observation; however, I must, on behalf of my fellow-men, decline it. We are, I'm afraid, just as likely as women are to get all indignant about things that don't concern us, polygamy being historically no exception.

However, while it offends our modern western sensibilities -- especially feminist ones -- the fact remains that morally and scripturally, polygamy is no big deal. It is impossible to make a cogent biblical argument against it, and it has historically been the dominant marriage form for the majority of the earth's population for most past centuries.

The early LDS polygamists were serious, devoted religious believers, and tireless journal-keepers. The giggling assumptions about what plural marriage "must have" been about are not borne out by their honest daily records. Rather, we find that it was a serious challenge, as much to the men as it was to the women, and it was entered into and adhered to primarily for religious reasons.

Regards,

Pahoran

[mapman]

Come on, Beth, why wouldn't you believe Smith? He engaged after all in treasure hunting, by his own account, and was tried for this offense is a rather comical proceeding. He was convicted of bank fraud. He was lynched by an armed mob after his role in the destruction of the printing press of the newspaper that threatened to detail the circumstances of his numerous polygamous and illegal relationships.

Doesn't this just scream credibility to you?

You are ignoring everything good he did and purposefully portraying him as some sort of villain.

Beth, as USU78 said a balanced view of Joseph's life can be found in Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling if you care to educate yourself about early Mormon history.

[Zeta-Flux]

However, while it offends our modern western sensibilities -- especially feminist ones -- the fact remains that morally and scripturally, polygamy is no big deal. It is impossible to make a cogent biblical argument against it, and it has historically been the dominant marriage form for the majority of the earth's population for most past centuries.

While I agree with Pahoran's intent, let me add a clarification. I would rephrase it to say "the fact remains that morally and scripturally, polygamy is occasionally commanded by God, and is also occasionally condemned by God. But it is not inherently evil, in and of itself."

[Jeanne]

Why not?

Is there a waiting period before you can become a member via baptism?

I have heard that the Catholic church will not let you join without many months of instruction on Catholicism.

With so much to learn about the founding history, Is this the same for Mormons?

To be fair actually, they don't let converts know about this stuff until they are baptized and giving 10% of their income.

I was a member for over 40 years and my memory of learning the golden plate translation is a picture of Joseph/Emma

or Oliver Cowdery with the plates on the table and curtain between Joseph and the translater. I didn't find out about

the peep stone until I was 50 years old...wow..no wonder the internet is just a dirty word.

[Pahoran]

To be fair actually,

Oh, I wish you would, just for a change.

they don't let converts know about this stuff until they are baptized and giving 10% of their income.

That is, of course, a complete falsehood.

The reality is that, of the thousands of hours worth of Church Historical material available, the missionary lessons hit the main headlines. The fact that they don't focus on the irrelevant factoids that fanatics obsess about in no wise prevents people from learning about such things in their own time. They are certainly not concealed from anyone.

Jeanne, there is only one group of people who try to run the "Mormunz hyde there reel histery" canard: deliberate, conscienceless liars. Try not to advertise your allegiance to that group every time you post, okay?

Incidentally, your bitterness about tithing is noted. I recommend you try not to let that fester too much.

I was a member for over 40 years and my memory of learning the golden plate translation is a picture of Joseph/Emma or Oliver Cowdery

You don't even remember which. Shows how much attention you paid.

with the plates on the table and curtain between Joseph and the translater. I didn't find out about the peep stone until I was 50 years old...wow..no wonder the internet is just a dirty word.

Is the internet "just a dirty word?"

Funny; I never knew that.

Or did you just make that up?

Again?

Regards,

Pahoran