Lost 116 Pages follow-up Question to Poll

[beth]

According to revelation given to Joseph Smith (found in the LDS Scriptures called the "Doctrine and Covenants" section 10 found here), the plan was to steal the pages and alter them.

Then, when Joseph did perfectly re-create them, the schemers would make the altered pages public and people would compare the two and reject the Book of Mormon based on the differences.

So, after the pages had been stolen, God explained what the plan was to Joseph (see D&C 10), at which time He also revealed that there were actually two versions of the story recorded in the original plates, so instead of re-translating the original 116 pages, he could instead translate the alternate version that covered the same time period but was admittedly different. That means God knew back in ~400 A.D. that the 116 pages would be lost, and instructed the ancient archiver to include an alternate version.

Since the pages were never seen again and no one ever came forward to explain what happened to them or confess to the plan, all we have are the missing pages and Joseph's revelation explaining what these unidentified plotters were planning.

Because this story is included in the canonized LDS scriptures, Mormons are pretty committed to believing that version of the story.

Without reading your posts to see your character, may I save time on that and ask you if you are a believing member? And if so, you believe this??

[cdowis]

Without reading your posts to see your character, may I save time on that and ask you if you are a believing member? And if so, you believe this??

Cinepro is our resident skeptic. His beliefs are not a subject for discussion here-- it is a moot issue. So let's just say that he is very well informed, and his job is to keep us on our toes.

[Nathair/|\]

Cinepro is our resident skeptic. His beliefs are not a subject for discussion here-- it is a moot issue. So let's just say that he is very well informed, and his job is to keep us on our toes.

But we still love him.

[Fifth Columnist]

Without reading your posts to see your character, may I save time on that and ask you if you are a believing member? And if so, you believe this??

I believe cinepro has a temple recommend.

[Fifth Columnist]

It does NOT say that the **pages** were going to be altered, but it specifically says "alter THE WORDS". It uses that phrase at least three times, and nowhere does it say that the pages were altered.

It merely means that there would be an alternative manuscript, not that there are physical changes to the original.

The 1830 Book of Mormon contained the following explanation:

To The Reader--As many false reports have been circulated respecting the following work, and also many unlawful measures taken by the evil designing persons to destroy me, and also the work, I would inform you that I translated, by the gift and power of God, and caused to be written, one hundred and sixteen pages, the which I took from the Book of Lehi, which was an account abridged from the plates of Lehi, by the hand of Mormon; which said account, some person or persons have stolen and kept from me, notwithstanding my utmost exertions to recover it again--and being commanded of the Lord that I should translate the same over again, for Satan had put it into their hearts to tempt the Lord their God, by altering the words, that they did read contrary from that which I translated and caused to be written; and If I should bring forth the same words again, or in other words, if I should translate the same over again, they would publish that which they had stolen, and Satan would stir up their hearts of this generation, that they might not receive this work: but behold, the Lord said unto me, I will not suffer that Satan shall accomplish his evil design in this thing: therefore thou shalt translate from the plates of Nephi, until ye come to that which ye have translated, which ye have retained; and behold ye shall publish it as the record of Nephi; and thus I will confound those who have altered my words. I will not suffer that they shall destroy my work; yea, I will shew unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the Devil. Wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, I have, through his grace and mercy, accomplished that which he hath commanded me respecting this thing. I would also inform you that the plates of which hath been spoken, were found in the township of Manchester, Ontario county, New-York.

So apparently the original plan was that the evil men would alter the words and publish them and this would frustrate the work of God. I still don't understand why anyone would believe that the work published by the evil men wasn't altered unless the evil men could produce the original handwritten version.

Of course, this all makes perfect sense if Joseph Smith knew that he couldn't reproduce the original translation word-for-word. If that was the case, he had two choices: (1) reproduce it and take the chance that it the original 116 pages would not resurface or (2) find a way to translate a parallel account so that it didn't matter if the two accounts didn't match.

[beth]

Cinepro is our resident skeptic. His beliefs are not a subject for discussion here-- it is a moot issue. So let's just say that he is very well informed, and his job is to keep us on our toes.

I believe cinepro has a temple recommend.

Without discussing cinpro directly,

How can one be a mormon skeptic and be allowed in the temple? I thought it was difficult to be a "temple Mormon", in that one must be a firm believer?

I never thought it was possible to be a skeptic and still be a full member?

Edited to add: Oh nevermind he is not using his real name so I guess his leaders do not know of his skepticism?

I guess one is allowed to be a skeptic as long as they do not voice their opinion to other members, at least in person at the church or chapel?

[Fifth Columnist]

It does NOT say that the **pages** were going to be altered, but it specifically says "alter THE WORDS". It uses that phrase at least three times, and nowhere does it say that the pages were altered.

It merely means that there would be an alternative manuscript, not that there are physical changes to the original.

One more thing to note. D&C 10:11 states that "they have altered the words," which indicates that the wicked men had already altered the words before Joseph even retranslated the text. The wicked men must have KNOWN, without any doubt, that Joseph could reproduce the 116 pages or else why would they do this. If they knew without any doubt that Joseph could reproduce the 116 pages, then they must have been exceptionally wicked, maybe even sons of perdition. They had a sure knowledge of Joseph's gift but denied it and fought against it..

[Fifth Columnist]

How can one be a mormon skeptic and be allowed in the temple? I thought it was difficult to be a "temple Mormon", in that one must be a firm believer?

I never thought it was possible to be a skeptic and still be a full member?

Edited to add: Oh nevermind he is not using his real name so I guess his leaders do not know of his skepticism?

I guess one is allowed to be a skeptic as long as they do not voice their opinion to other members, at least in person at the church or chapel?

There is very little in Mormonism that qualifies as "doctrine," which leaves lots of room for other beliefs (reincarnation (see Eliza Snow), non-literal Adam and Eve (see the very long thread on this very board from a few weeks ago), etc., etc.).

[cinepro]

Without reading your posts to see your character, may I save time on that and ask you if you are a believing member? And if so, you believe this??

As with all LDS, I believe some things more than others, and other things less than others.

Thankfully, there's nothing in the Temple Recommend interview about the story of the 116 pages, so it hasn't come up yet.

[Nathair/|\]

One more thing to note. D&C 10:11 states that "they have altered the words," which indicates that the wicked men had already altered the words before Joseph even retranslated the text. The wicked men must have KNOWN, without any doubt, that Joseph could reproduce the 116 pages or else why would they do this. If they knew without any doubt that Joseph could reproduce the 116 pages, then they must have been exceptionally wicked, maybe even sons of perdition. They had a sure knowledge of Joseph's gift but denied it and fought against it..

Here is all you need to believe to enter the temple.

1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

[beth]

As with all LDS, I believe some things more than others, and other things less than others.

Thankfully, there's nothing in the Temple Recommend interview about the story of the 116 pages, so it hasn't come up yet.

Thank you cinpro.

I gather from this that most members don't read into Mormon history very much?

Thank you for your candid explaination. To me this 116 page story sounds very very fishy.

[beth]

Here is all you need to believe to enter the temple.

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

I did not know this. With this restoration, which was brought about by Joseph Smith, you must believe in him to be a mormon?

You must accept his view of Christianity?

Kind of like being a follower of Martin Luther, or a Lutheran, one would think that Mormons should be called Smithians or some such.

[Nathair/|\]

I did not know this. With this restoration, which was brought about by Joseph Smith, you must believe in him to be a mormon?

You must accept his view of Christianity?

Kind of like being a follower of Martin Luther, or a Lutheran, one would think that Mormons should be called Smithians or some such.

Well, there is not much point IMHO, in being a Latter-Day Saint if you don't accept Joseph as a prophet, but you only have to have a testimony of his work if you want to attend the temple.

We didn't choose the nickname Mormon, it was given to us by outsiders. We consider ourselves disciples of Christ first and last. Brother Joseph just holds a lamp showing the path to Christ.

Yours under the disciplined oaks,

Nathair /|\

[Pahoran]

Thank you cinpro.

I gather from this that most members don't read into Mormon history very much?

Most people don't read much history at all.

Most Latter-day Saints are, by and large, considerably better informed about their history than, say, most Southern Baptists are about theirs. Or most Catholics, or most Orthodox, or most believers of whatever stripe.

Thank you for your candid explaination. To me this 116 page story sounds very very fishy.

LDSTruthSeeker and PaleRider will be very gratified to learn that their well-poisoning was not all in vain.

The one undeniable fact is that the 116 pages were taken, either by stealth or by fraud, and not returned to Joseph. Thus, the one undeniably "fishy" part of the episode is the part to which Joseph was a victim and not a perpetrator.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

One more thing to note. D&C 10:11 states that "they have altered the words," which indicates that the wicked men had already altered the words before Joseph even retranslated the text. The wicked men must have KNOWN, without any doubt, that Joseph could reproduce the 116 pages or else why would they do this. If they knew without any doubt that Joseph could reproduce the 116 pages, then they must have been exceptionally wicked, maybe even sons of perdition. They had a sure knowledge of Joseph's gift but denied it and fought against it..

This is a non sequitur.

The most likely explanation is that they were having a "bob each way." After all, they weren't involved in the actual process; for all they knew, Joseph might have been dictating by reading from previously written material, in which case he could have produced a word-perfect replacement for the lost pages without any divine help at all.

Thus, if they prepared a doctored version in advance, they'd be ready for any eventuality, wouldn't they?

Regards,

Pahoran

[why me]

So then you accept everything the witnesses say about their dealings with Joseph Smith?

I don't know if I would accept everything but perhaps somethings. We need to remember that some of their statements come from feelings of hurt or anger. We humans can say some mean things when such feelings come into play. But what is amazing that regardless of what they said or how they felt about Joseph, they did not deny what they saw and that would go against human nature. The greatest hurt that they could have done, was to come clean about the 'fraud' and write a book or an article about how it all happened.

But that never happened...just dying with their testimony on their lips.

[why me]

Thank you cinpro.

Thank you for your candid explaination. To me this 116 page story sounds very very fishy.

What is so fishy? First we have Martin asking Joseph if he could borrow the pages. Joseph consents. If Joseph was doing a fraud, do you think he would be fancy free with these pages? Maybe not. Fraudsters may not be so quick to let 'evidence' out of their sight before the plan can be implemented.

However, I would still contend that these pages would have been very beneficial when the book of mormon came out. Think of the publicity that they would have created after the publication of the book of mormon. I could just see the headlines: Lost pages to Joe Smith's golden bible come out in booklet form! Whoever destroyed those pages must have had sea sickness thinging about it.

To assume that joseph could not duplicate the pages points to Joseph writing the book from the top of his head while his head is in a hat. Quite a feat. And if some critics are correct, that sidney wrote the book, there would be manucript to copy from.

[why me]

Going out of town right now and don't have time to give you a thorough answer but I would suggest you research Martin Harris's confession regarding what was actually seen by the eight witnesses and how they were very reluctant to sign the document Joseph drew up for them and now appears in the BoM. See letter written to Lyman Johnson from his friend at the old stone church. I'll get a CFR for you later if need be.

No, I didn't anticipate Joseph being perfect but I never anticipated him committing adultery and hiding it under the guise of "plural marriage". See the book "Emma Smith, Mormon Enigma" written by two Latterday Saint women. This and many other anomilies are what disqualify him as a prophet.

When we cut out all the human imperfections, what we have is this:

http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/Mormons/martin_harris.htm#harris

Family Background

1783. May 18: Born in Easttown, New York. In 1808 he married his cousin Lucy Harris; they had three children. She divorced him in 1831 because of his funding of the Book of Mormon. In 1837 he married Brigham Young's niece Caroline Young, by whom he had five children.

Farmer and Community Leader

1804. Harris's 240 acres of prime land made him one of the most prosperous farmers in the Palmyra, New York, region. He served in the local militia during the War of 1812, and was later elected or appointed to a number of civic posts.

Book of Mormon Scribe

1827. As a neighbor, Harris was one of the few persons outside the Smith family to know of the existence of the Book of Mormon plates before they were retrieved from the Hill Cumorah.

1828. According to Harris, an angel told the Prophet "to go look in the spectacles, and he would show him the man that would assist him ... He did so, and he saw myself, Martin Harris."

As a "last precautionary step" to be sure "there was no risk whatever in the matter," Harris took some of the copied characters from the plates to scholars in New York City. Though he did not obtain written certification of their authenticity, he was satisfied, and became the first Book of Mormon scribe.

To convince his skeptical wife, Harris persuaded the Prophet to let him take the 116 pages of completed manuscript home with him. They were lost or stolen, and as a result, the plates and interpreters were taken "for a season," and Martin was no longer allowed to transcribe.

Book of Mormon Witness and Benefactor

1830. As one of the Three Witnesses, Harris testified he heard the voice of God declare the Book of Mormon to be authentic as an angel showed him the gold plates.

Harris mortgaged his farm to raise the $3000 needed to print five thousand copies of the Book of Mormon. Lucy, violently opposed to his investment, unsuccessfully sued Joseph Smith for "defrauding Husband." The marital discord increased when Martin testified that "Joseph had never asked him for money that he was not more than willing to give."

Early Church Leader

1830. Oliver Cowdery baptized Martin Harris shortly after the organization of the Church. The following year, he accompanied Joseph Smith to select the "land of consecration" in Missouri.

1834. Became a member of the first high council in Kirtland.

During Zion's Camp, Harris boasted that he could handle snakes with "perfect safety." While "fooling with a black snake with his bare feet, he received a bite on his left foot."

1835. Harris and the other Book of Mormon Witnesses, David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery, selected, ordained, and instructed the twelve elders who became the original Quorum of the Twelve.

Dissident

1834. Tried by the Kirtland High Council for accusing Joseph Smith of not understanding the Book of Mormon, of wrestling too much, and of drinking while translating the Book of Mormon, Martin confessed that his mind had been darkened so that he said things inadvertently.

His discontent mounted with the collapse of the Kirtland Anti-Banking Society, and on September 3, 1837, Harris was dropped from the Kirtland High Council. He and his family remained in Kirtland when most Saints emigrated to Missouri or Nauvoo. "I never did leave the Church," he claimed, "the Church left me."

Kirtland Temple Caretaker

In later years Harris often conducted tours of the temple. One visitor described him as a "poorly clad, emaciated little man on whom the winter of life was weighing heavily." Harris enjoyed proclaiming his testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith:

"Just as surely as the sun is shining on us and gives us light, and the moon and stars give us light by night; just as surely as the breath of life sustains us, so surely do I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, chosen of God to open the last dispensation of the fullness of times; so surely do I know that the Book of Mormon was divinely translated."

Rebaptism

On various occasions Harris was reported to be a firm believer in Shakerism, a Strangite, and a member of the Church of Christ. In all, he affiliated with eight different religious groups.

1859. Caroline Harris and their five children emigrated to Utah without him. Though she never divorced Harris, Caroline married John Cathy Davis in 1860.

1870. Harris was persuaded to visit Utah by his son's brother-in-law, William H. Homer. Harris sent a message to Brigham Young through Homer: "Tell him that Martin Harris is an old, old man, living on charity, with his relatives. Tell him I should like to visit Utah, my family and children

[beth]

Thank you for your detailed replies "why me", given your level of knowledge and seemingly defensive responses, I will assume that you are a regular attending Mormon member who is a staunch believer?

[beth]

To assume that joseph could not duplicate the pages points to Joseph writing the book from the top of his head while his head is in a hat. Quite a feat. And if some critics are correct, that sidney wrote the book, there would be manucript to copy from.

What on earth are you talking about? writing the book while his head is in a hat? He wore a special hat?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Thank you for your detailed replies "why me", given your level of knowledge and seemingly defensive responses, I will assume that you are a regular attending Mormon member who is a staunch believer?

What does that have to do with anything?

[ELF1024]

Thank you for your detailed replies "why me", given your level of knowledge and seemingly defensive responses, I will assume that you are a regular attending Mormon member who is a staunch believer?

Since you seem to put some sort of "Stigma" on "regular attending staunch believer"; I'm an excommunicated "regular attending believer"; which means that I have been removed from the Church roles, have no membership, no authority, but I still attend and believe.

I don't see that the 116 pages, which has been theorized to consist of the "Book of Lehi" and the first couple of pages of the "Book of Mosiah"; to be a big deal. Joseph Smith Jr. lost the pages.

It's not like it hasn't happened before. How many books are mentioned in the Bible, or are referenced by the Bible, but are not part of the Bible, or have been lost entirely. How many books are in the Catholic Bible, vs the King James Verison.

Why is the loss of 116 pages that big a deal? It's just another 116 pages that people would reject if we had them because it's part of the Book of Mormon.

[beth]

What does that have to do with anything?

As someone who has never been a member of your church and knowing very little of your church, I am fascinated by the posters here and their levels of belief vs how they defend or tear down the Mormon faith.

Since you seem to put some sort of "Stigma" on "regular attending staunch believer"; I'm an excommunicated "regular attending believer"; which means that I have been removed from the Church roles, have no membership, no authority, but I still attend and believe.

I don't see that the 116 pages, which has been theorized to consist of the "Book of Lehi" and the first couple of pages of the "Book of Mosiah"; to be a big deal. Joseph Smith Jr. lost the pages.

It's not like it hasn't happened before. How many books are mentioned in the Bible, or are referenced by the Bible, but are not part of the Bible, or have been lost entirely. How many books are in the Catholic Bible, vs the King James Verison.

Why is the loss of 116 pages that big a deal? It's just another 116 pages that people would reject if we had them because it's part of the Book of Mormon.

Intriguing elf1024. Even though this church kicked you out for not keeping their commandments, you still actively participate and believe?

Is Mormon excommunication permanent and irreversible or is this part of a repentance program requirement?

May I ask why you were kicked out?

How long ago?

Do you desire to rejoin?

[cinepro]

What on earth are you talking about? writing the book while his head is in a hat? He wore a special hat?

So that's what it sounds like when a can of worms is opened.

Here is how one witness to the translation process explained it, as shared by LDS Apostle Russel Nelson in the LDS Magazine "The Ensign":

The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:

[USU78]

As someone who has never been a member of your church and knowing very little of your church, I am fascinated by the posters here and their levels of belief vs how they defend or tear down the Mormon faith.

Intriguing elf1024. Even though this church kicked you out for not keeping their commandments, you still actively participate and believe?

Is Mormon excommunication permanent and irreversible or is this part of a repentance program requirement?

May I ask why you were kicked out?

How long ago?

Do you desire to rejoin?

Here's the poop on that, beth: You can be rebaptized after no less than one year . . . most of the time, if you're willing and able to abide what your local ecclesiastical leaders require of you for rebaptism.

BTW: It's considered not cool to inquire into people's personal lives. I wouldn't hold my breath for a specific reply from Lord Glorfindel.