Lost 116 Pages follow-up Question to Poll

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Well, to be fair, we don't teach people all this before they join.

We really don't teach them anything that is any harder to believe than that story either.

What the offical teaching is that JS translated the BoM by the gift and power of God.

Is that easier to believe than the U&T or a seer stone in a hat? Not to me. Some people have a hard time the second you mention God.

[ELF1024]

Why is that? So how the book or mormon was translated has no bearing? I don't understand how that is not important.

I guess I am too wrapped up in the history of how the book came about. I will also admit I have not read the book. I have browsed it a bit from posts here, but since it reads much like the bible in the old english type language it also puts me to sleep.

And it came to pass, and it came to pass, and it came to pass. Why so many of that phrase?

It has been theorized or/and perhaps verified that "And it came to pass" was one character or glyph. Thus making it's use very easy and space saving.

This has been my line of thinking. That you must ascribe to the "version" of Christianity professed by Joseph Smith to be a Mormon.

I would accept that as a truth, however there is at least one person on the board who would not. BookOfMormonLvr is not LDS. However, he still believes in the Book of Mormon.

I would liken LDS and Joseph Smith Jr, to Lutheranism and Martin Luther.

[beth]

My wife (married in Feb 2010) joined the Church in the last year. She turned 40 this year. We'd only been dating for about six months.

She joined because she couldn't understand the Nicean concept of the trinity. She had a hard time with:

She said that everything she'd been questioning about her own faith(s) was answered by the LDS Church in a way that was understandable for the first time.

So she joined a church you were kicked out of? And while you were not a committed member of?

What did she think of the lost 116 pages, the seer stone and translation stuff??

[mapman]

Does this stone still exist? Has it been examined by scientists or geologists?

Yes, it is one of the seer stones currently owned by the Church. I rather doubt that they would ever let it out of their hands to let scientists examine it. A few of Joseph's seer stones are privately owned by people and have been photographed.

Dibble seer stone

Bidamon seer stone:

[Pahoran]

That was kinda harsh.

Perhaps it was; but, given the aspersions you've been casting upon the intelligence of believing Latter-day Saints, it was hardly uncalled for.

May I ask if you were born into this church?

You may.

And no, I wasn't.

Not that that's really relevant to anything, anyway. All adult Latter-day Saints are converts in some sense; and if they fail to measure up, they generally either fall into inactivity, or leave outright.

Regards,

Pahoran

[ELF1024]

So she joined a church you were kicked out of? And while you were not a committed member of?

Indeed, in fact she is the one responsible for my return to the Church.

She wants the temple marriage. She wants the Eternal family. That was more than likely the single biggest reason she joined the church.

What did she think of the lost 116 pages, the seer stone and translation stuff??

I don't know if we ever got into it... I'll let her know you'd like to talk to her... she is a member (mrs. elf) on the forum.

[beth]

Well, to be fair, we don't teach people all this before they join.

Why not?

Is there a waiting period before you can become a member via baptism?

I have heard that the Catholic church will not let you join without many months of instruction on Catholicism.

With so much to learn about the founding history, Is this the same for Mormons?

[beth]

Yes, it is one of the seer stones currently owned by the Church. I rather doubt that they would ever let it out of their hands to let scientists examine it. A few of Joseph's seer stones are privately owned by people and have been photographed.

Dibble seer stone

Bidamon seer stone:

Did the one that Smith had glow in the dark like the top photo looks?

Why wouldn't the Mormon church allow this stone to be examined? Its not like it would be stolen. Make it a very public event.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Why not?

Is there a waiting period before you can become a member via baptism?

I have heard that the Catholic church will not let you join without many months of instruction on Catholicism.

With so much to learn about the founding history, Is this the same for Mormons?

As a missionary what happens is that there is a series of lessons and depending on how many commitments an investigator keeps they could be baptised in as little as 3 weeks from start to finish.

As I stated the offical teaching that is used by the missionaries is that JS translated the BoM by the gift and power of God. There is no talk of a seer stone in a hat or even talks of the U&T. Poeple are asked to read and pray to God about the truthfulness of the BoM. Most people convert to the church after they have had that confirming witness.

People generally don't (some do though) sit around and think about the BoM and try to find all of these external evidence before joining. IOW they don't try and use archaeology as a reason to join the church.

[Nathair/|\]

Did the one that Smith had glow in the dark like the top photo looks?

Why wouldn't the Mormon church allow this stone to be examined? Its not like it would be stolen. Make it a very public event.

There wouldn't be any point. What makes it work is not something that a geologist could detect.

[ELF1024]

Did the one that Smith had glow in the dark like the top photo looks?

Why wouldn't the Mormon church allow this stone to be examined? Its not like it would be stolen. Make it a very public event.

The "Glow in the Dark" stone is more than likely just backlit and doesn't really glow, but was lit in a way that made it a very interesting photo.

[Mrs Elf]

I will admit I have never heard of this "Urim and Thummim" in the Bible. The link that you gave does not mention it being used to translate though so I don't think it is a valid comparison.

Hi Beth,

The Urim and Thummin are mentioned in Exodus 28:30 and Leviticus 8:8 as they were part of the outfit that Aaron had to use in the temple. Moses put them in the breastplate after Aaron put it on during the sanctifying of the temple in the wilderness. As I was growing up and going to schools in Baptist churches, I was required to read through the Bible on a yearly basis and the names struck me as funny and stuck in my head. When I converted to the LDS Church, my husband and I were reading through the BoM and we came across the words again and I piped up "I know where those are in the Bible!" and found them. It made for an interesting discussion for the both of us and put another puzzle piece in place for me.

Hope this helps.

[Mrs Elf]

Indeed, in fact she is the one responsible for my return to the Church.

She wants the temple marriage. She wants the Eternal family. That was more than likely the single biggest reason she joined the church.

I don't know if we ever got into it... I'll let her know you'd like to talk to her... she is a member on the forum.

The fact that there are men out there that are willing to stick it through the hard stuff because that is what they believe Heavenly Father has called us to do and they want their families during eternity was a strong pull for joining the LDS Church. But what really got me was the fact that I could make connections between the Bible that I grew up reading and what was mentioned in different parts of the BoM and with the witness of the Holy Ghost, come to a knowledge that what was being taught was true. My husband and I did talk about the lost 116 pages and in all honesty, as a mother, I can see having the pages taken from him when he wouldn't listen to his Heavenly Father saying "No" and pestering to let it be done would constitute a punishment of "I told you know, so these are going to be taken from you. Now you have made things harder for yourself and those around you because you would not listen to me when I said No." Consequences for thinking "ah, He'll let me do it and I'll show him I know better", usual human behavior.

As for the Urim and Thummim, they were first mentioned in the Bible in Exodus and were used by Moses and Aaron for the temple in the wilderness.

Hope this helps.

[ELF1024]

The fact that there are men out there that are willing to stick it through the hard stuff because that is what they believe Heavenly Father has called us to do and they want their families during eternity was a strong pull for joining the LDS Church. But what really got me was the fact that I could make connections between the Bible that I grew up reading and what was mentioned in different parts of the BoM and with the witness of the Holy Ghost, come to a knowledge that what was being taught was true.

My husband and I did talk about the lost 116 pages and in all honesty, as a mother, I can see having the pages taken from him when he wouldn't listen to his Heavenly Father saying "No" and pestering to let it be done would constitute a punishment of "I told you know, so these are going to be taken from you. Now you have made things harder for yourself and those around you because you would not listen to me when I said No." Consequences for thinking "ah, He'll let me do it and I'll show him I know better", usual human behavior.

As for the Urim and Thummim, they were first mentioned in the Bible in Exodus and were used by Moses and Aaron for the temple in the wilderness.

Hope this helps.

This is what we believe the Lord has to say on the matter when he removed the Plates and the U&T from Joseph

D&C Section 3

6 And behold, how ^aoft you have ^btransgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the ^cpersuasions of men.

7 For, behold, you should not have ^afeared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and ^bdespise his words

[beth]

This is what we believe the Lord has to say on the matter when he removed the Plates and the U&T from Joseph

D&C Section 3

Oh, this D&C book is written by Joseph Smith wherein he claims he is recording what God was saying to him?

[beth]

Indeed, in fact she is the one responsible for my return to the Church.

She wants the temple marriage. She wants the Eternal family. That was more than likely the single biggest reason she joined the church.

At age 40?

I read parts of the link. Do you two have children from previous marriages? How will your "Eternal Family" exist without the children? Or are you speaking of just the two of you?

[ELF1024]

Oh, this D&C book is written by Joseph Smith wherein he claims he is recording what God was saying to him?

Basically...

Doctrine and Covenants Introduction

The Doctrine and Covenants is a collection of divine revelations and inspired declarations given for the establishment and regulation of the kingdom of God on the earth in the last days. Although most of the sections are directed to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the messages, warnings, and exhortations are for the benefit of all mankind and contain an invitation to all people everywhere to hear the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ, speaking to them for their temporal well-being and their everlasting salvation. Most of the revelations in this compilation were received through Joseph Smith, Jr., the first prophet and president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Others were issued through some of his successors in the Presidency (see headings to sections 135, 136, and 138, and Official Declarations 1 and 2).

[Pahoran]

At age 40?

I read parts of the link. Do you two have children from previous marriages? How will your "Eternal Family" exist without the children? Or are you speaking of just the two of you?

Beth,

This is not a forum where those sorts of probing personal questions are considered acceptable. In simple terms, it's not about the participants, so your questions are off-topic if nothing else.

Addressing your question in general terms, we believe that the Lord will sort all of these issues out.

Regards,

Pahoran

[beth]

There wouldn't be any point. What makes it work is not something that a geologist could detect.

Oh so the belief in your church is that this stone only works for certain people? Only a Mormon prophet can make it holographicly interpret unknown launguages?

Have other prophets after Joseph Smith been successful in doing this?

Edited to add: Did Joseph Smith translate other records with this stone?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Oh, this D&C book is written by Joseph Smith wherein he claims he is recording what God was saying to him?

In simplistic terms yes, that is correct.

[ELF1024]

At age 40?

I read parts of the link. Do you two have children from previous marriages? How will your "Eternal Family" exist without the children? Or are you speaking of just the two of you?

My first wife and I were not temple married. It is my and "mrs elf" intention to have as many of her/my (none are "ours") kids "sealed" to us as possible. It's complicated and a bit more than I would like to get into on the board.

[beth]

Beth,

This is not a forum where those sorts of probing personal questions are considered acceptable. In simple terms, it's not about the participants, so your questions are off-topic if nothing else.

Addressing your question in general terms, we believe that the Lord will sort all of these issues out.

Regards,

Pahoran

I am sorry. I assumed it was OK to ask since they offered up their personal info.

I can edit that out or asked if it can be deleted.

I apologize Mr. and Mrs. Elf.

[beth]

My first wife and I were not temple married. It is my and "mrs elf" intention to have as many of her/my (none are "ours") kids "sealed" to us as possible. It's complicated and a bit more than I would like to get into on the board.

Thank you, and I apologize for asking personal questions.

[beth]

In simplistic terms yes, that is correct.

Please do not take offense at this, but how can you be sure he wasn't making it up?

Why would you believe anything that Joseph Smith wrote over some other self proclaimed prophet?

[ELF1024]

Oh so the belief in your church is that this stone only works for certain people? Only a Mormon prophet can make it holographicly interpret unknown launguages?

Have other prophets after Joseph Smith been successful in doing this?

Edited to add: Did Joseph Smith translate other records with this stone?

We believe that whatever the "medium" be it a stone, or the U&T; that they work by Faith. It is not the object itself that is important. However the U&T would be important as holy relics. It is the FAITH of the person and the power of God that cause the translation or other special ablility to be possible.