The Morality of Wealth

[Analytics]

I'm looking for someone who will tell me the very simple solution to all of the problems, in very concise terms.

I could tell you, myself, how we could solve all of the problems, together, but I'd like someone else to step up to bat here and tell all of us how it should be done.

The very simple solution to all of the problems is for everybody to convert to Unitarian Universalism and live together in peace and harmony. Obviously.

[ttribe]

ttribe:

Ayn Rand.

Ummm, not sure you're reading that correctly. According to the Wiki "Some scholars regard this as a bitter description of communist treatment of the masses, not Rand's own evaluation." Link

[Ahab]

staccato:

I don't begrudge the wealthy their wealth, as long as it is legally gained.

I don't begrudge them their wealth, either, but I also recognize the fact that all of us have a responsibility to be good stewards of all that we have to work with.

We live in a capitalistic society after all.

That doesn't excuse anybody from being a good steward of all that they have to work with.

[thesometimesaint]

ttribe:

There is no question that the former USSR treated it citizens poorly, and in far too many cases murderously. But one country's actions to its citizens doesn't excuse the actions of another country in relations with its own citizens.

That is just one quote of MANY of Ayn Rands' that calls into questions what she actually believed.

[ttribe]

ttribe:

There is no question that the former USSR treated it citizens poorly, and in far too many cases murderously. But one country's actions to its citizens doesn't excuse the actions of another country in relations with its own citizens.

That is just one quote of MANY of Ayn Rands' that calls into questions what she actually believed.

Okay, but that doesn't mean that the "middle class" (of which I am a member) is inherently being treated as "mud" intentionally or otherwise under either the theoretical prototype capitalist system, or the one we actually operate under in the U.S. today.

[Ahab]

The very simple solution to all of the problems is for everybody to convert to Unitarian Universalism and live together in peace and harmony. Obviously.

More details, please. I appreciate your effort to be concise, but I think we need a little more detail to convey how we could fix the problems.

As I see it, right now, the problem is that most of the wealth in this world is controlled by those who are rich, with very little of that wealth being given to those who are poor.

The money goes uphill just fine. The problem is that most of it stays uphill with very little of it coming back down to the poor... on purpose, as if people are supposed to hang on to as much money and other forms of wealth as they possibly can instead of getting rid of it or sharing it with others ASAP while treating it as a "hot potatoe".

So, the solution to the problem is for the rich to actually give money to those who are poor, and not just as a trickle, but as a very large cash flow that just keeps on coming, so the poor will then have some money to go out and buy the things that are generated in our world market.

Imagine a person who usually makes $500 a year being given $120,000 to spend, and then imagine how that poor person would go out and spend that money.

Now imagine that instead of only one such poor person being given that much money by some rich person or persons, the rich gave 1,000,000 poor people that much money to work with, with which they would go out and spend it on things made in our world market.

Do you see how the money would go uphill, again, with there still being some rich person or persons who would benefit from those purchases?

Let

[Deborah]

"but mud to be ground underfoot, fuel to be burned for those who deserve it?".

This quote is in a novel in the context of a character chiding another character for his beliefs and was very early in Rand's philosophical development. The fact that it was taken out of context and used as the pivot on which some people will criticize what they don't agree with shows what skimpy arguments they have.

In Atlas Shrugged Rand expressed admiration for any man who earned an honest living and worked hard. I have a hard time seeing how the wealthy treat the middle class in this way or that it became part of Rand's final philosophical thought. I think a more telling look at her philosophy is how Dagny treated the tramp hiding in her train car.

[Deborah]

The very simple solution to all of the problems is for everybody to convert to Unitarian Universalism and live together in peace and harmony. Obviously.

No, the very simple and only solution is for everyone to convert to Christ and actively follow his teachings to love one another.

[katherine the great]

There isn't a person on this board who isn't "filthy stinking rich" by someone in the world's standards. If we pay a full tithe and are generous with our fast offerings and other charitable giving if possible then we are doing what the Lord has asked of us.

[mbh26]

Furthermore in a free market society the worker has the same opportunity to become the employer through hard work and making wise decisions.

Do you really believe that? Have you ever truly started a business from nothing? No inheritance, nothing?

The propagandists for class warfare have truly succeeded when people believe that every man who has succeeded has done so by exploiting others when in a true free market society the successful man cannot get where he is without giving benefits to others either in product or employment.

I once talked that line when I was in school. Life experience has taught me different.

There's another problem to all this. Capitalism isn't just destroying the environment, which I really don't care about given how bad life is currently. It gives people the choice of either working themselves into premature illness and death or doing nothing at all. It has no in between. I just talked with a poor redneck friend who had a job working 15-20 hours a day. He's got premature diabetes now from living off coffee, cigarettes, and being constantly on the go, not because he wanted to but because he had to or he would get fired. His company offered to boost his pay from $11/hr to $16/hr if he would just agree to not quit. They couldn't understand that it wasn't about the money. He just wanted a 40 or 50 hour week and fewer medical bills. But it's too late for that now. Diabetes doesn't undo itself once it gets going, even when you're put into a rest home. That's why I have to look at their retinas every year for the rest of their life and it's expensive, not to mention a crummy method of trying to improve quality of life. This is not how human beings were meant to live and it is the greed of capitalism that is causing it. Oh employers know this but they don't care. It's easier to work a trained person 80 hrs/week than to have to train another to do a job that justifiably has a high turnover rate because it pays so poorly. They'll do whatever they have to do short of getting sent to jail to make sure they're sitting on the golden toilet seat, mined, molded, and daily cleaned by somebody else. All that Christian stuff is just something they talk about on Sunday and maybe for the sad day when some other "cabron" takes their toilet seat from them. "Nothing personal they say," just pure business. I want to see them tell that to Jesus Christ.

For you guys to sit here and claim to be Christian and not call this sinful is beyond me. Oh but he agreed to it and was able to make his child support payment with it. Again, tell that to Jesus Christ on judgment day Mr. Scrooge. Don't get me wrong. I don't claim the communists to be any more Godly, but I know for sure that the way capitalism is unapologetically practiced in this world is so far from God that I cannot comprehend how anyone can claim to have the spirit of God and see it and have no problem with it. You are either ignorant like I was or you're just evil.

Jesus knew all this too well. He lived it. He didn't sit on boards and get paid huge sums of money for people to write books about his life. He did seem to be pretty healthy given his supernatural powers, but yet he seemed to understand people that were just too sick to work and were begging, another thing most people in this world either don't care to understand or cannot understand. I'm afraid it's usually the former. What human beings will do to each other in this world in the name of money and selfishness is truly disgusting. I'd almost rather see war than to see it continue like this.

[Ahab]

There isn't a person on this board who isn't "filthy stinking rich" by someone in the world's standards. If we pay a full tithe and are generous with our fast offerings and other charitable giving if possible then we are doing what the Lord has asked of us.

True, but some people's idea of what it means to be "generous" needs some improvement, because some people's idea is that ANYTHING they give with no strings attached is a generous gift.

That's why I advocate the idea that people set a limit for how much money they should use for their own household, such as $120,000 annually, while giving everything else they have to somebody else so they will also be able to enjoy more of this world's wealth.

[Deborah]

That's why I advocate the idea that people set a limit for how much money they should use for their own household, such as $120,000 annually, while giving everything else they have to somebody else so they will also be able to enjoy more of this world's wealth.

Wow! I wish I had even half that annually. And I don't consider myself poor.

[Deborah]

Do you really believe that? Have you ever truly started a business from nothing? No inheritance, nothing?

I haven't but I know several people who have. They started working in their homes or garages and went big. It was hard work, lots of time and having a product others wanted.

just because some employers abuse their employees doesn't mean all do. In fact most companies have to be very careful about how they treat employees. And one could make the argument that some employees abuse their employers' good will. Believe me I work with some of these everyday.

I've been dirt poor, with nothing to eat, but it never occurred to me to blame an employer or some rich person sitting in a big house. How on earth would someone sitting in his mansion affect my circumstance, particularly if he never met me? It's a ridiculous argument.

[mbh26]

There isn't a person on this board who isn't "filthy stinking rich" by someone in the world's standards. If we pay a full tithe and are generous with our fast offerings and other charitable giving if possible then we are doing what the Lord has asked of us.

I agree except I would add one point. I know LDS who pay their tithing and might even take their turn at the Bishop's storehouse, but they're also Frank Shirely, Clark Griswald's Jewish boss who cut out Christmas bonuses this year, maybe to buy his wife a $100,000 set of pearls or whatever. I don't think Frank ever acknowledged that his success was in large part due to Clark's 17 years with the company because Frank started the company. Frank "owned" the company. I know women right now who wear more money on their fingers than the women cleaning their houses for them will ever see in their lifetimes. These women call themselves Christian. I call them materialistic people users. If there is any justice in this universe, the parable of Lazarus and the beggar will mean a lot more some day than, "Well we paid Lazarus more than his other employers would have." Well kudos to you, you've earned a cooler place in hell. It's only 2500 degrees there. Last shall be first, and first shall be last.

I know people who couldn't stand going to the temple because they saw their boss there, and they knew who he was as a businessman and how he treated other people in the name of a dollar. We need to start treating each other like human beings. And that includes the Latinos we've been importing to be our new slaves. I'd like to line up the employers hiring illegal immigrants in front of a firing squad. When will the white man ever learn his lesson and start doing his own work. It's truly a defect in my own race and culture and I'm ashamed of it. I think war is necessary at times to put a check on such selfishness. It's all about military power and that's what it all ultimately comes down to in this world and always has. Might is right because only the king's view is heard. But it will not be the only perspective heard at judgment day.

Maybe I don't have the firepower right now to make things right, but I'm truly as angry about all of this as I was rightfully angry about communism. It's the best example of people calling evil good as I have ever seen in this world.

[Ahab]

Wow! I wish I had even half that annually. And I don't consider myself poor.

Me too.

My point was that there should be an upper limit to how much one household retains for their own household, with anything above that amount being given... and I do mean "given"... to others who don't have as much.

[ttribe]

Maybe I don't have the firepower right now to make things right,...

Uh, what?

[ttribe]

My point was that there should be an upper limit to how much one household retains for their own household, with anything above that amount being given... and I do mean "given"... to others who don't have as much.

In an imperfect, temporal, world this isn't the solution. Forced redistribution on this scale would result in nothing but rebellion and violence, not to mention a likely complete shut down of industry as everyone figures out that it is better to receive (and not work for one's bread) than it is to give.

[Ahab]

I agree except I would add one point. I know LDS who pay their tithing and might even take their turn at the Bishop's storehouse, but they're also Frank Shirely, Clark Griswald's Jewish boss who cut out Christmas bonuses this year, maybe to buy his wife a $100,000 set of pearls or whatever. I don't think Frank ever acknowledged that his success was in large part due to Clark's 17 years with the company because Frank started the company. Frank "owned" the company. I know women right now who wear more money on their fingers than the women cleaning their houses for them will ever see in their lifetimes. These women call themselves Christian. I call them materialistic people users. If there is any justice in this universe, the parable of Lazarus and the beggar will mean a lot more some day than, "Well we paid Lazarus more than his other employers would have." Well kudos to you, you've earned a cooler place in hell. It's only 2500 degrees there. Last shall be first, and first shall be last.

I know people who couldn't stand going to the temple because they saw their boss there, and they knew who he was as a businessman and how he treated other people in the name of a dollar. We need to start treating each other like human beings. And that includes the Latinos we've been importing to be our new slaves. I'd like to line up the employers hiring illegal immigrants in front of a firing squad. When will the white man ever learn his lesson and start doing his own work. It's truly a defect in my own race and culture and I'm ashamed of it. I think war is necessary at times to put a check on such selfishness. It's all about military power and that's what it all ultimately comes down to in this world and always has. Might is right because only the king's view is heard. But it will not be the only perspective heard at judgment day.

Maybe I don't have the firepower right now to make things right, but I'm truly as angry about all of this as I was rightfully angry about communism. It's the best example of people calling evil good as I have ever seen in this world.

I'm pretty much right there with you except for what I see as some violent tendencies, because I don't want to "force" anyone to do what they should do, unless you count simply telling someone what they should do as if it's some kind of "force".

What I want to see is a world where people freely give to others what they would like to get in return, with everyone seeking nothing but the best of all things.

I want to see people helping each other, just because they want to, and they can, instead of seeing people taking advantage of someone's weaknesses and capitalizing on them to get what they want in this world.

There is a reckoning coming, and rather than seeing people get hurt or suffer for being selfish, and mean, and greedy, and oppressive, I'd just like to see everybody wake up and realize what we all were before we came here to be "tested".

[Ahab]

In an imperfect, temporal, world this isn't the solution. Forced redistribution on this scale would result in nothing but rebellion and violence, not to mention a likely complete shut down of industry as everyone figures out that it is better to receive (and not work for one's bread) than it is to give.

I never said anything about "force", ttribe.

I'd just like to see all of the rich people do what they should do, voluntarily, just because they want to, and they can, and they should.

[ttribe]

I never said anything about "force", ttribe.

Then you've changed your tune from the last time we went a few rounds about this issue.

I'd just like to see all of the rich people do what they should do, voluntarily, just because they want to, and they can, and they should.

That's nice.

[Ahab]

Then you've changed your tune from the last time we went a few rounds about this issue.

Heh, no. Apparently you misunderstood me. I never have felt that "force" was the solution to the problem. I have made some comments about how our Lord will come back with an army to clean this mess up when he comes for his Second Advent, but I don't see "force" being involved in any of that, either.

That's nice.

It is, isn't it. Now if only everybody would simply be "nice".

[USU78]

USU78:

Because her personality problems were reflected in her writings my good John Galt.

Right.

Ultimately you have compulsory expropriation of other people's stuff to give to people you like better. That is the alternative to Rand's writings.

It's much easier to attack her personally than actually defend the moral cesspool that is socio-communism.

[mbh26]

How on earth would someone sitting in his mansion affect my circumstance, particularly if he never met me? It's a ridiculous argument.

Because we live in a world that has more people than land. There was a time when you could always just go back to the farm. Why do you think so many Americans resisted leaving the farm even when the city offered more money and at least temporarily a better quality of life? We have no option to just walk away anymore. Asking a man today to just walk away from his job is like asking a farmer to just walk away from his land. Firing a man is like throwing him off his land, and saying, "It's your responsibility to conquer some new land for yourself." Many of the men and women who have fired me from jobs over the years never knew me. Frank Shirley never even knew Clark Greaseball's real name. Oh I got other jobs, but who bore the cost of all that nonsense? It wasn't the employer. I'm sure they barely remember it because it wasn't nearly as painful for them and their families. Who paid for breaking the apartment lease? Who paid to retrain himself in a different career? Who pays for the retraining when the market shifts and a different skill set is needed? I used to think people got fired from jobs because they were lazy or because they were dishonest. It's a lie. The workplace is like swimming with sharks, except sharks have more compassion and aren't quite as selfish. Even as low as $15/hr it was a backstabbing political group of baboons looking out for number one alone. And why do they engage in such fratricide? Because it was the difference between busting your rear end learning a new job and paying a college for the title when the market lost demand for your skills and being the one who gets to keep his steady job/house/car and golf while you are studying something else. No the workplace wasn't always this way, but it's becoming more and more this way and it's because there is even less and less check on the employers power as time goes on. The reason for this is the condition of the rest of the human family that we are being forced to compete with and can't really hold off much more even if when we want to.

Colombia is a good example that more likely than not parallels our "most interesting man in the world," living down in Mexico. I asked homeless unemployed people in Bogota where they came from. They were subsistence farmers who had been thrown off their land by drug lords. The aristocrats were probably behind the drug lords throwing them off the land in the first place, just to keep their labor pool applicants nice and high. What I didn't understand before I went there was that the government, the guerilla/drug lords, and the aristocrats, we're all one in the same power and purpose. The drug lords name was Pablo Escobar. In prison he sat on a toilet seat of "puro oro," while he conducted business with the government and aristocrats. I wouldn't doubt if the aristocrats sat on them as well as a symbol of their status at the top of the food chain.

And like it or not, it's our countries problem as well, as long as we keep producing businessmen with ethics that mirror Latin American business ethics and continue to lack the George Washington type of personalities that made this country the one people flee to. The Second amendment wasn't written to protect hunting. It was written to protect our right to fight and revolt. Unfortunately it didn't work. We don't have the power to fight and revolt and our country is turning into Latin America right now!

[katherine the great]

I don't think its practical to set my household needs at X amount and give the rest away. If we hadn't set aside a significant amount of money aside for a "rainy day" instead of getting some decent countertops in my kitchen that I wanted, we wouldn't have survived this economic downturn. We pay a FULL tithe without fudging and try to be generous with donations wherever we can and I feel pretty good about things. I don't live in a shack but I don't live in a mansion either. I think our lifestyle is acceptable to the Lord. If I didn't, I would change it.

[Ahab]

I don't think its practical to set my household needs at X amount and give the rest away.

What is the X amount was $1 million dollars. Would that be enough for you and your family to live on for a while if you had an "economic downturn" in your family?

If not, how about $10 million dollars. Would that be enough, do you think?

I think $120,000 a year is plenty for any household, unless maybe they can't get health insurance for some reason and they need a LOT of medical treatment and they don't know anyone who will give them that treatment for free.

At some point, enough is enough, with everything beyond that amount being more than they need which some other people who are poor could certainly use.