The Morality of Wealth

[katherine the great]

With some people it does get to the point that you're better off working a job rather than doing what they say in hopes of being included in their will. My Dad made that mistake with his stepmother.

Huh? Every grown person is better off working than waiting to someone to die and leave them an inheritance. I think the best thing parents can do for their children is to teach them well when they are young, help them with their educations and let that be their inheritance. The most worthless human beings I've ever seen are trust fund babies and I've seen hard feelings from wills destroy families. Its ridiculous.

[LeSellers]

Let's assume that everyone converted to Mormonism, ...

Yea!!! Oh, yes, let's!!

... the United Order never left, and Bill Gates was born Mormon. How much do you think the bishop would be appropriating Bill and his family for their needs?

The matter of consecration must be done by the mutual consent of both parties; for to give the bishop power to say how much every man shall have, and he be obliged to comply with the bishop's judgment, is giving to the bishop more power than a king has; and, upon the other hand, to let every man say how much he needs, and the bishop be obliged to comply with his judgment, is to throw Zion into confusion, and make a slave of the bishop. The fact is, there must be a balance or equilibrium of power, between the bishop and the people, and thus harmony and good will may be preserved among you.

[staccato]

Huh? Every grown person is better off working than waiting to someone to die and leave them an inheritance. I think the best thing parents can do for their children is to teach them well when they are young, help them with their educations and let that be their inheritance. The most worthless human beings I've ever seen are trust fund babies and I've seen hard feelings from wills destroy families. Its ridiculous.

As have I, which is why I asked to be removed in the first place. That, and he began dating (after 53 years of marriage) one month after my mom died and remarried within a year, giving the vast majority of the estate to the new wife with a will provision that when the new wife dies, the estate will return to his children. Sounded like a recipe for disaster to me.

Interestingly enough, my dad has never helped any of the children or grandchildren with education. Of nine children, we all worked our way through college with nary any financial support from him. He does not give out money to family members for any reason, regardless of need. He has, however, paid for the entire missions of eight grandchildren.

[Deborah]

Interestingly enough, my dad has never helped any of the children or grandchildren with education. Of nine children, we all worked our way through college with nary any financial support from him.

And you appear to resent this but I found in college that those like me who were putting themselves through without any help appreciated their educations more. Many of my friends who were fully supported by parents squandered their time in college. I frankly don't see why it is a parent's responsibility to put their kids through school, even if they can afford to. They should teach their kids to work and save for this on their own or have some kind of matching fund set up so that the kids have some responsibility for their own educations.

[Jeff K.]

I support Deborah's view. My parents did not put me through college, I did not resent them for it, nor do I think paying for college is the duty of parents for their children. Majority age means making your own decisions and being responsible for yourself.

I sometimes worry about the privleged generation we are raising up. The attitude is that somehow a right exists to things we saw as grateful gifts from our parents.

[thesometimesaint]

I agree with Thomas Jefferson that education through college should be free.

[Analytics]

I agree with Thomas Jefferson that education through college should be free.

I agree with Jefferson as well. It isn

[thesometimesaint]

Analytics:

[mbh26]

Yes Katharine I agree that trust fund babies are among the most worthless people in the world.

nor do I think paying for college is the duty of parents for their children.

We might as well make them pay for high school degrees as well because most college degrees aren't worth much more than a high school degree was worth to our parents. In Latin America you pay from 6th grade on.

Truth is that most of the people in other medical professional programs I've met were the sons and daughters of doctors and were sent to expensive private schools from grade school all the way through a college career that was nearly as expensive as the stiflingly expensive grad program I went through. And you know what, the teaching was a lot better. But that's capitalism at work because the teachers were paid better. Except at the grad school level. There the teachers are paid obscenely well and are still extremely worthless and nobody can stop them.

If my parents hadn't helped me through college, I'd either be in Iraq and possibly missing a limb, or on unemployment between construction jobs that I can't get because I can't beat the Latinos. I guess that's what happens for a lot of folks.

[Jeff K.]

College is pretty much free in the US. Consider that if you run up loans and then volunteer to do service for the government for a few years, its paid for.

My brothers went through the military to obtain their education degrees. It is a good and honorable path. Your odds of "possibly losing a limb" in Iraq and Afghanistan?

So far roughly 750 people have become amputees in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Compare that to 185,000 amputations in the US in general. Lets try to keep it real.

Man with three brothers who have gone through the military.

[thesometimesaint]

Jeff K.:

Loans are not free. They must be paid back with interest.

I served during the Vietnam War. There was nothing free about the GI Bill that I earned.

[katherine the great]

If my parents hadn't helped me through college, I'd either be in Iraq and possibly missing a limb, or on unemployment between construction jobs that I can't get because I can't beat the Latinos. I guess that's what happens for a lot of folks.

I think it depends on the kid too. My parents paid for approximately half of my education and mission. I worked as a janitor from 4-7 am at BYU one year while attending school fulltime and always worked all summer between years. It was very doable, but not particularly pleasant. I will expect most of my children will contribute to their own educations except for our oldest. We opted to send him to a ridiculously expensive film school without him working between quarters or while attending. For his particular temperment, he would have gotten overwhelmed. He's now employed fulltime as a film editor and isn't making a great deal of money yet, but he is supporting himself and seems to be happy. Our other children handle stress better and will contribute more to their own educations. On the other end of the spectrum is my brother in law who put himself through college and medical school, completely rejecting any financial help from the parents, lived modestly during his first ten years of practice to pay off his student loans and now lives like a king. He's just an enormously driven person by nature and never felt like anyone owed him anything. It takes all kinds.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K.:

Loans are not free. They must be paid back with interest.

I served during the Vietnam War. There was nothing free about the GI Bill that I earned.

A poor word I agree, rather available for those without money.

[Analytics]

A poor word I agree, rather available for those without money.

Actually, that option only available to some without money.

In contrast, an option that is available to just about everybody is to take out a subsidized student loan. In addition to driving up the cost of education across the board, student loans have the effect of enriching the wealthy and robbing the middle class because suckers who take out these loans become the effectual slaves of the rich who ultimately financed it (Proverbs 22:7).

[ttribe]

Actually, that option only available to some without money.

In contrast, an option that is available to just about everybody is to take out a subsidized student loan. In addition to driving up the cost of education across the board, student loans have the effect of enriching the wealthy and robbing the middle class because suckers who take out these loans become the effectual slaves of the rich who ultimately financed it (Proverbs 22:7).

Please...good luck finding a loan with more favorable payment terms than a subsidized student loan. I took out a couple of these during my college days and was able to pay them back rather quickly.

[Jeff K.]

In contrast, an option that is available to just about everybody is to take out a subsidized student loan. In addition to driving up the cost of education across the board, student loans have the effect of enriching the wealthy and robbing the middle class because suckers who take out these loans become the effectual slaves of the rich who ultimately financed it (Proverbs 22:7).

Gee, and when I took out my student loan, it helped make me and not niecessarily the bank. Financing an education definately made me value it and think with care what I wanted to study and how I would pay it off. I don't see it as a sucker bet, unless of course you wasted your education and frittered away your opportunity.

Maybe we should have a government program that stops people from doing that too?

Actually, that option only available to some without money.

Only some? You penchant for exaggeration is showing again. A call for references please, who cannot obtain the programs both military and civilian that offer to pay off you college costs in exchange for your service?

[Analytics]

Please...good luck finding a loan with more favorable payment terms than a subsidized student loan. I took out a couple of these during my college days and was able to pay them back rather quickly.

You totally missed the point. The first point is that the availability of student loans increases the cost of college.

The second point is that loans are little more than a mechanism of shifting wealth from those who are actually doing the work to the ruling class with the money to loan. According to your scriptures, the borrower is the servant of the lender. Is this type of indentured servitude really a good way to promote college and promote a strong middle class?

[Jeff K.]

You totally missed the point. The first point is that the availability of student loans increases the cost of college.

The second point is that loans are little more than a mechanism of shifting wealth from those who are actually doing the work to the ruling class with the money to loan. According to your scriptures, the borrower is the servant of the lender. Is this type of indentured servitude really a good way to promote college and promote a strong middle class?

Actually college tends to strengthen the middle class substantially and many if not most students use loans. In fact, the benefits of a loan generally ensure the person is better off with a college degree than they would if no college degree were available.

Your post isn't rational.

[ttribe]

You totally missed the point. The first point is that the availability of student loans increases the cost of college.

Weren't you just advocating opening the colleges up to as many people as possible? Hate to break it to you but "free" isn't really free. SOMEONE will pay, and the fact that a lender is involved in the current system is not nearly as big a driver of increased costs as are other factors; namely, salary inflation, bureaucratic waste, and fraud, just to name a few.

The second point is that loans are little more than a mechanism of shifting wealth from those who are actually doing the work to the ruling class with the money to loan.

Nope again. Lending me money to get an education may have resulted in a relative small enrichment of the "wealthy" for the piddly amount of interest I paid, but CREATED substantially more wealth to me given the kind of salary I make these days.

According to your scriptures, the borrower is the servant of the lender. Is this type of indentured servitude really a good way to promote college and promote a strong middle class?

I'll answer this question when you drop the snarky tone.

[Analytics]

In response to my assertion that the military option is only available to some people, you replied:

Only some? You penchant for exaggeration is showing again. A call for references please, who cannot obtain the programs both military and civilian that offer to pay off you college costs in exchange for your service?

Here is a link to the requirements of joining. If you don't meet the requirements, the option isn't available.

http://www.military.com/Recruiting/Content/0,13898,rec_step02_eligibility,,00.html

You really thought that the military accepts everybody?

[Analytics]

Weren't you just advocating opening the colleges up to as many people as possible? Hate to break it to you but "free" isn't really free. SOMEONE will pay, and the fact that a lender is involved in the current system is not nearly as big a driver of increased costs as are other factors; namely, salary inflation, bureaucratic waste, and fraud, just to name a few.

The price of college has increased at a much higher rate than inflation in general. The reality of the current system is that whenever colleges want more money, they increase tuition, and the students end up borrowing more to cover it. The subsidization shifts the demand curve for education, which results in the price going up.

Do you really think that fraud explains better than subsidization why the cost of college has doubled over the last 20 years?

Nope again. Lending me money to get an education may have resulted in a relative small enrichment of the "wealthy" for the piddly amount of interest I paid, but CREATED substantially more wealth to me given the kind of salary I make these days.

I'm glad it worked out for you, but I wonder how typical your experience is.

[ttribe]

The price of college has increased at a much higher rate than inflation in general. The reality of the current system is that whenever colleges want more money, they increase tuition, and the students end up borrowing more to cover it. The subsidization shifts the demand curve for education, which results in the price going up.

Weren't you just advocating 100% subsidization?

Do you really think that fraud explains better than subsidization why the cost of college has doubled over the last 20 years?

Don't know, but there's plenty of $'s wasted on fraud at these institutions each year. If you're looking for a quick, and significant, shot in the arm in terms of financial improvement right away then reduce the fraud losses. Far more effective than arguing about shifting demand curves from now until the end of time.

Illustration - survey evidence from the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners (http://www.acfe.com/rttn/2010-rttn.asp) tells the following regarding educational institutions and fraud:

- 5% of all reported frauds were perpetrated on an educational entity;

- the median loss PER INCIDENT at educational entities was $71,000;

- 42.2% of frauds perpetrated on an educational entity were billing schemes (which are VERY preventable at low cost);

- 24.4% of frauds perpetrated on an educational entity were corruption schemes (which is an indictment on the oversight of key employees).

Additionally, I've done some audit work on a very large public university as a result of fraud allegations and have witnessed firsthand not only the degree to fraud is a real cost, but also bureaucratic waste. It's unconscionable to be using taxpayers money in such a wasteful manner.

I'm glad it worked out for you, but I wonder how typical your experience is.

I suppose that depends on one's major. Seems pretty typical in most of the "professions" near as I can tell.

Bear in mind that I paid for my own college education (undergrad and grad school) through scholarships and loans. My mother never made more than $25K a year in her entire life, my parents divorced when I was 5, and my Dad (who retired as an airline pilot in 1988) had too many divorces under his belt to spare me much help in that process.

[Analytics]

Weren't you just advocating 100% subsidization?

As I learned in college, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, lol. I'd be in favor of directly subsidizing college for people who take it seriously. I'm not in favor of subsidizing loans--especially for the English-major types who likely couldn't get the loan without the government subsidizing it.

Don't know, but there's plenty of $'s wasted on fraud at these institutions each year.

I don't doubt it--thanks for the statistics. But if there weren

[Jeff K.]

In response to my assertion that the military option is only available to some people, you replied:

Jeff K., on 30 December 2010 - 01:49 PM, said:

Only some? You penchant for exaggeration is showing again. A call for references please, who cannot obtain the programs both military and civilian that offer to pay off you college costs in exchange for your service?

Here is a link to the requirements of joining. If you don't meet the requirements, the option isn't available.

http://www.military.com/Recruiting/Content/0,13898,rec_step02_eligibility,,00.html

You really thought that the military accepts everybody?

I am from a military family, we in our home have always known the military requirements. But your reading comprehension is abysmal to say the least.

Only some? You penchant for exaggeration is showing again. A call for references please, who cannot obtain the programs both military and civilian that offer to pay off you college costs in exchange for your service

I presume you took no advantage of loan or other method and bypassed university?

So for your reading pleasure: The College Cost Reduction and Access Act

[Analytics]

I am from a military family, we in our home have always known the military requirements. But your reading comprehension is abysmal to say the least....

I never said nor implied that civilian options weren't available to everybody, so I don't understand the basis for your CFR.

Which is why it is ironic to be lectured by you, of all people, regarding reading comprehension.

I presume you took no advantage of loan or other method and bypassed university?

Feeling a little violent there, Jeff?