The Morality of Wealth

[Analytics]

I moved the last comment to the beginning of this response for effect

[mbh26]

Is it your labor earning the wealth or is other peoples labor earning your wealth? We live in a world where labor is nearly worthless and capital can make your second million oh so easy. The richest man in the world is a Latino from Mexico City. He didn't invent anything. He didn't create any wealth. He just took advantage of the pain of other people in a worse situation because he got far enough ahead of them to have the oppurtunity to do so.

And when I ultimately look back at what every human being has, it all comes back to one very unChristian act. Aggressive and hostile takeover of that which another man possessed, often times built up by enslavement of the defeated population. The proceeds of which are passed on by inheritance. You guys act like we all started from zero just the same. Nothing is fair in this world nor was it ever. So don't try to tell me that someone using a golden toilet seat with 10 wives earned it all fair square and the rest of us still digging a hole to poop in should accept that and continue to work for minimum wage for him.

Once you concede that nothing is fair, it all just crumbles down from there. There is nothing Christian about $500 plate dinners when the people who work for you can't afford McDonald's. And that is exactly what is going on and what has always been going on whether those sigining the checks open their eyes or keep them closed and refuse to look at reality. Maybe capitalism is the best system on earth, but I find it very dishonest to claim that Jesus would have paid and treated his workers the way modern businessmen do. And we'll all answer for our business ethics just as much as the other set of ethics we use on Sunday and at home with our own family.

[USU78]

A quick review of Cicero's writings shows that he had a pretty fair general understanding (but probably highly naive specific understanding) of business matters and wealth. He was a pretty wealthy man himself, member of a class of wealthy people. He put the problem of business ethics in good relief against the realities of his time. A boat with foodstuffs arrives at a rich but food-poor port, with the owners knowing that another boat was on its way filled with even more foodstuffs aboard. The problem: immediate scarcity of food in the port town multiplied its value as compared with worldwide grain prices. Knowledge of more food on its way, however, would remove its scarcity from the equation. Do the owners share this knowledge or not?

This is not particularly new, this issue of wealth and how we come by it. And how our lives go when we don't have much of it.

I am, frankly, troubled by mbh's Marxist approach to the alleged Mexican entrepreneur/gold-spooner he so glibly demonizes.

Now, I'm the last one in the world to defend the mega corrupt patronistic economic system that troubles our unlucky neighbor, but a specific case of wealth being "built on the backs of the downtrodden" is tough to hang on a single person in the middle of all that dysfunction.

Nor do I find it useful. It's poor salesmanship. Better to flatter the padron into generosity than guilt him into sullen defiance.

[mbh26]

I am, frankly, troubled by mbh's Marxist approach to the alleged Mexican entrepreneur/gold-spooner he so glibly demonizes.

I'm just saying that when the employer is sitting on a golden toilet seat and the workers are using a shovel something is wrong with the economic system. I'm not a Marxist and sure wasn't raised that way, but I was also raised to do my own work, no slaves, no housemaids, you understand what I'm saying? And after spending enough time in corporate America where employer and employee have absolutely no regard for each other, I'm scared at how Marxist I'm sounding.

Problems with capitalism

1. All men do not have equal ability.

2. All men do not have equal oppurtunity.

3. Rule of law cannot make everything fair.

It's a wild and savage jungle out there. And I maintain that if you're the one sitting on the golden toilet seat, you need to take a serious look at your priorities before you meet the Lord at judgment day. Because you didn't make that toilet seat nor did you mine the gold. Obscene examples like this point out a very obvious and inconvenient truth. No individual man could have possibly produced the amount of wealth that the capitalistic system awarded these guys. It was produced by other people and you managed to get yourself into position to take advantage of it. I believe in capitalism far more than I believe in socialism but I don't see Jesus as one to sit on a golden toilet seat in a world where his employee or even his parishoner is using a shovel, all the while saying, "Hey I earned it, that's fair." Such materialism and hyperconsumerism is just as deplorable as sloth and idleness.

[Analytics]

I'm just saying that when the employer is sitting on a golden toilet seat and the workers are using a shovel something is wrong with the economic system. I'm not a Marxist and sure wasn't raised that way, but I was also raised to do my own work, no slaves, no housemaids, you understand what I'm saying?

It sounds like even though you claim you aren't a Marxist, you are at least quite sympathetic to Karl Marx

[Ahab]

Can someone please direct me to the post where someone has pointed out how our economy should work in this world ?

Or, if that's too much trouble, would someone please just reiterate exactly how we should be sharing our resources, while being as concise as possible ?

[thesometimesaint]

Ahab:

Let me refer you to a true Latter-day Saint. Marriner Eccles.

http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/conference/2010/materials/reich.pdf

[Analytics]

Can someone please direct me to the post where someone has pointed out how our economy should work in this world ?

Or, if that's too much trouble, would someone please just reiterate exactly how we should be sharing our resources, while being as concise as possible ?

Here is a link to the best book written on the subject.

The primary motivators under capitalism are greed, fear, and desperation. The real question as to whether we can really move on to a better system (whether you call it The United Order or anything else, it

[Deborah]

from Ayn Rand Capitalism

The nineteenth century was the ultimate product and expression of the intellectual trend of the Renaissance and the Age of Reason, which means: of a predominantly Aristotelian philosophy. And, for the first time in history, it created a new economic system, the necessary corollary of political freedom, a system of free trade on a free market: capitalism.

No, it was not a full, perfect, unregulated, totally laissez-faire capitalism

[Deborah]

I'm just saying that when the employer is sitting on a golden toilet seat and the workers are using a shovel something is wrong with the economic system.

Not if the employer is paying a wage to which the worker has agreed and the worker is benefiting by being able to support his family. Furthermore in a free market society the worker has the same opportunity to become the employer through hard work and making wise decisions.

The propagandists for class warfare have truly succeeded when people believe that every man who has succeeded has done so by exploiting others when in a true free market society the successful man cannot get where he is without giving benefits to others either in product or employment.

[ttribe]

The primary motivators under capitalism are greed, fear, and desperation.

Sorry, but I could not disagree more with this statement. My observation is that capitalism is largely driven by ambition, achievement, and self-interest (whether rational or not).

[ttribe]

I'm just saying that when the employer is sitting on a golden toilet seat and the workers are using a shovel something is wrong with the economic system.

Except that in capitalism the workers have the greatest opportunity to change their station in life; more-so than in any other system attempted thus far.

[thesometimesaint]

Deborah:

Too bad Ayn Rand was a Sociopath.

[Analytics]

Ahab:

Let me refer you to a true Latter-day Saint. Marriner Eccles.

http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/conference/2010/materials/reich.pdf

That is an excellent paper, and I strongly agree with Reich

[Deborah]

Too bad Ayn Rand was a Sociopath.

And you know this because....

She definitely had personal problems and she might be called many things but I would hardly call her a sociopath, and I am familiar with her history. I would certainly defer to her over Reich on any question of economics. She came to this country as a penniless refugee and by hard work and talent was able to overcome many setbacks and achieve a success and renown that has had a rebirth among today's generation of young people disaffected with a government run amok.

[thesometimesaint]

Deborah:

I've read Ms. Rand too, and reject her "objectivism"

Wealthy people are just as prone to Sociopathy as the poor, and middle class.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/9/15/782252/-Sociopathy-on-the-Right:-Ayn-Rand-and-the-Triumph-of-Conservative-Cultism

[Deborah]

Wealthy people are just as prone to Sociopathy as the poor, and middle class.

I didn't say they weren't, but I have known sociopaths and in fact was married to one and I would not apply that to Rand, whatever her failings in her personal life. And again I point out she only became wealthy later in life and struggled for many years before becoming so.

[USU78]

What could possibly be the reason for attacking Rand, not for her views, but for her alleged personal problems?

[thesometimesaint]

USU78:

Because her personality problems were reflected in her writings my good John Galt.

[Ahab]

Ahab:

Let me refer you to a true Latter-day Saint. Marriner Eccles.

http://www.irle.berk...rials/reich.pdf

I'm looking for someone who will tell me the very simple solution to all of the problems, in very concise terms.

I could tell you, myself, how we could solve all of the problems, together, but I'd like someone else to step up to bat here and tell all of us how it should be done.

[Ahab]

Here is a link to the best book written on the subject.

The primary motivators under capitalism are greed, fear, and desperation. The real question as to whether we can really move on to a better system (whether you call it The United Order or anything else, it

[staccato]

I like to imagine what would happen if the rich actually gave to the poor so the poor would have more money to spend on the things that made the rich rich.

What a wonderful world that would be.

Could be. But of the wealthy people that I know, they either made their riches from MLM's or inheritance. My niece married a 22 year old boy when she was 19. His dad was a regional manager of Western Reserve Life (it is an MLM that sells financial products like life insurance, mutual funds, etc). His dad decided to move down to Texas to open up a new branch of distributors and handed over his entire Utah business to my niece's husband. At the age of 22 he is guaranteed a steady income stream of $500,000 a year.......without lifting a single finger. He can and does choose to try to build the business but the already existing clientele portfolio premiums have made him instantly wealthy. My niece is 27 years old now and they have three children, live in a million dollar home and are set for life. With minimal amount of actual work involved.

And of my very wealthy friends, one is the owner of the Noni castle. He made all of his money through Tahitian Noni, a fruit drink. I really doubt the poor care to spend money on overpriced, overvalued fruit juice. I think they would be happy with reasonable housing and an assurance of three square meals a day.

And yet another. My son's friend's family just moved into a new home in Alpine. It is 14,000 square feet, not including the in-law cottage. They have three boys, one is in college. So five people living in a 14,000 square foot home. His dad made his money the old fashioned way......he inherited it.

I find excessive, conspicuous amounts of wealth to be morally and socially irresponsible. I don't care who you are, or how you made your money. The disproportionate allocation of resources is outrageous when you consider so many people in this world are dying of starvation. If you are one of those people who say "well, I did the work to make the money therefore I can spend it however I want." Well, we're noticing how you are spending your money, ya jackwagons.

[thesometimesaint]

staccato:

I don't begrudge the wealthy their wealth, as long as it is legally gained. We live in a capitalistic society after all. What I object to is their telling me I'm have no right to my piddling little Middle Class lifestyle. That I'm am "but mud to be ground underfoot, fuel to be burned for those who deserve it?".

[ttribe]

staccato:

I don't begrudge the wealthy their wealth, as long as it is legally gained. We live in a capitalistic society after all. What I object to is their telling me I'm have no right to my piddling little Middle Class lifestyle. That I'm am "but mud to be ground underfoot, fuel to be burned for those who deserve it?".

Who's saying that?

[thesometimesaint]

ttribe:

Ayn Rand.