All Native Americans are Descendants of Jews

[brightpath]

Lehi>Mannaseh Ishmael>Ephraim Mulek>Judah So you have the tribe of Joseph and Judah present in the Lamanites which is the Native Americans. To those of you that stated Joseph Smith was inexperienced when he wrote the Wentworth Letters, How can that be. A prophet of God being confused, not knowing DNA evidence. Come on! Was Moroni wrong to0, when he appeared to Joseph Smith 3 separate times and rehearsed the same things to him, telling him the inhabitants of America were the Natives. The Native Americans of this country are the Lamanites and are the remnant of Jacob. Joseph Smith was correct. When he first published the BofM who were the first people he sent missionaries too? The Native Americans. Brigham Young taught this too, and so on down the line. Look it up its in the history of the church! Don't let science confuse you. I would think we would take what our church has taught and past prophets over science which is mans wisdom on disproving religion.

[Thinking]

we understand that there is a difference between doctrine and factual issues.

For example, the geography is a factual issue, subject to intellectual investigation. A prophet, seer and revelator can express his opinion, and he may be factually incorrect. We give him a "pass" because BOM geography is not a doctrinal issue. When he speaks about the text and doctrine of the BOM, we listen to him as a prophet.

The antimormons are unable to comprehend the difference.

Let's put it in another context. Tom Cruz may be a great actor, and we can carefully listen to him about acting as an expert. But when he speaks about geography or economics, we can give him a pass if his opinions are factually incorrect.

Are you able to wrap your mind around that basic concept.

SWK was not talking about geography or economics. He was talking about lineage, something so important to the LDS people that it is included in the patriarchal blessing. The lineage in question is from the Book of Mormon (the foundational book of scripture of the LDS faith). The belief that ALL Native Americans descended from Lehi was used as a tool by missionaries in their attempt to convert the "Lamanites."

[Bikeemikey]

Many leaders of the church have proclaimed ancestry through Lehi and the Book of Mormon story to people in the Americas, as well as the Pacific Islands including New Zealand.

It appears that such statements may have been in error.

[Selah]

Native Americans are descendants of Asians. Mongolians to be specific. All you have to do is take a quick glance at the both of them to see that. Of course DNA evidence proves this conclusively.

[thesometimesaint]

Selah:

No it does not. Further the migration of less than 40 individuals would have no appreciable influence on the genetic make up on the millions that were already here.

[cdowis]

Native Americans are descendants of Asians. Mongolians to be specific. All you have to do is take a quick glance at the both of them to see that. Of course DNA evidence proves this conclusively.

You are either an expert, or just stupid to make such a brash statment.

Let's assume the former, so perhaps you already know about the Chicago study which showed that a pure Native American had a common ancestor with a woman from Greece. I assume that as a PhD in the area, with expertise that you can speak so confidently without regard to contradiction, that you are prepared to expound with expertise on that particular finding.

Let's see what you got. Or are you just another ignorant antimormon.

BTW, you might find it interesting that the name Timothy, an ancient Greek name, shows up in the BOM text. But to an antimormon, that's just another of dozens of coincidences in the BOM which you can choose to ignore.

[Brent Metcalfe]

Hi folks,

The notion that Amerindians are descendants of ancient Israelites is firmly rooted within the prophetic tradition of Joseph Smith and his successors, as I've previously documented (see here). Those who suggest otherwise are misguided and fail to grasp the breadth of the historical data.

Kind regards,

</brent>

http://mormonscripturestudies.com

(

[TAO]

The notion that Amerindians are descendants of ancient Israelites is firmly rooted within the prophetic tradition of Joseph Smith and his successors, as I've previously documented (see here). Those who suggest otherwise are misguided and fail to grasp the breadth of the historical data.

Brent, they are talking about sole ancestory... which he never talked of.

[Brent Metcalfe]

Hi TAO (if that is your real name

[Kevin Christensen]

1. The members of the first presidency and the quorum of the twelve are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators.

Look up the word "sustained" in a good dictionary. I find the range of meanings to be quite instructive. To support, uphold, nourish, suffer, endure, etc. All of the meanings call for strength on the part of the one doing the sustaining, and none require unquestioning acceptance and intellectual acquiescence of everything said or reputed to have been said about or by or to or in the vicinity of or about them. When we sustain our leaders, we are actually promising to put up with them, honoring their gifts, and putting up with their humanity. To imply otherwise does not demonstrate actual thinking.

2. It never ceases to amaze me that an LDS apostle/prophet can deliver a prepared speech at an official church meeting, yet somehow when he is proven to be wrong, he is given a pass because "even prophets do not speak canonized scripture with every word from their mouths."

What is so amazing or shocking or unexpected about an LDS leader being wrong about something?

Inasmuch as they erred it might be made known; And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed. . . . And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time. (D&C 1:25-28)

The guarantee on prophets in the D&C is always described in terms of "expedience," and never infallibility or omniscience.

For convenience, I provide a detailed study of Biblical Keys for Discerning True and False Prophets, which besides 28 tests for prophets, I also include a study of Biblical recommendations for observes wanting to keep motes out of their own eye that they might see clearly.

http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/prophettestsfv5.pdf

Also, given the frequent references to the Wentworth letter on this thread, it is worth recalling Matt Roper's neglected but important observations on the topic.

First, it is important to note that in the Wentworth letter, Joseph Smith starts with what the angel told him and then provides his own description of the Book of Mormon narrative for the press. Consequently, his words about the Jaredite and Israelite migrations do not come from the angel Moroni. In fact, this wording, for the most part, did not even originate with Joseph Smith but is essentially adapted from Orson Pratt's 1840 pamphlet on the Book of Mormon.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=15&num=2&id=505

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Senator]

You are either an expert, or just stupid to make such a brash statment.

Let's see what you got. Or are you just another ignorant antimormon.

Oooo....Nice touch, cdowis!!

[cdowis]

Hi folks,

The notion that Amerindians are descendants of ancient Israelites is firmly rooted within the prophetic tradition of Joseph Smith and his successors, as I've previously documented

There seems to be something missing from your extensive article.

1 Ne 18 [25] And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the *** and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men

Please tell us your knowledge of the ox, and the (domesticated) goat. They were there when Lehi landed.

Praythee, where did these domesticated animals come from?

I realize those who reject the BOM see it as a work of fiction. We know for a fact there were inhabitants in the Americas at the time period that Lehi arrived, so the antimormons make a desperate attempt to discredit the BOM by pretending that the BOM tells us that the entire western hemispere was vacant and void. However, this tiny verse proves that the BOM acknowledges that "others" were living here when they arrived.

So, dear chap, with all your bluster and making of great wind, you fail to cite the one verse that brings your great and marvelous building, your carefully crafted edifice crashing down in a heap.

The BOM text tells us that there were others in America when Lehi landed, as supported by scientifice evidence. The details of these inhabitants were likely given in the large plates, rather than the small plates which were reserved for the religious history.

[mfbukowski]

1 Ne 18 [25] And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the *** and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men

Please tell us your knowledge of the ox, and the (domesticated) goat. They were there when Lehi landed.

....this tiny verse proves that the BOM acknowledges that "others" were living here when they arrived.

An interesting argument, which I have not seen before, but I am not well informed on these issues which I frankly consider unimportant to my belief in the BOM, but aren't these usually seen as "BOM Anachronisms"?

Aren't you shooting yourself in the foot by bringing this up?

[TAO]

Hi TAO (if that is your real name

[cdowis]

An interesting argument, which I have not seen before, but I am not well informed on these issues which I frankly consider unimportant to my belief in the BOM, but aren't these usually seen as "BOM Anachronisms"?

You need to have more conversations with me. You may find it very educational.

+++++++++++++++++

Anachronism is something that requires proof.

Are you shooting yourself in the foot to propose something that you are unable to prove? "Anachronisms" have an annoying habit of showing up at the most akward times and places. It is just a matter of time and patience.

[cdowis]

Oooo....Nice touch, cdowis!!

This is an application of the "only two alternatives" technique of the antimormons.

[brightpath]

The only other people that were present in the America's when Lehi arrived was the Mulekites. They may have come a little before them but most likely after them. There were no other(Asians) people present. America was reserved for Israel. Asians are not Israelites so therefore they weren't present. After Israel rejected the gospel, then God allowed the Gentiles to over run the America's

[cdowis]

The only other people that were present in the America's when Lehi arrived was the Mulekites. They may have come a little before them but most likely after them. There were no other(Asians) people present. America was reserved for Israel. Asians are not Israelites so therefore they weren't present. After Israel rejected the gospel, then God allowed the Gentiles to over run the America's

Perhaps you can give us the source of your information. I suspect that you are misinterpreting some verses in the BOM, but let's see what you got.

To save you some embarrassment, the Jaredites were not Israelites.

[Thinking]

Just because Joseph translated the Book of Mormon doesn't make him a Book of Mormon scholar of the sort we expect from university departments of history, religion, and languages, and that wasn't necessary in the economy of God anyhow.

What does scholarship have to do with speaking for the Lord?

It is a huge mistake on your part to demand of Joseph (or of any modern-day prophet of the LDS Church) to have a doctorate in linguistics or ancient Near Eastern studies, any more than we would demand that he know the finer points of plumbing or electricity -- for that we call in a plumber or electrician.

Plumbing and electricity have nothing to do with the Book of Mormon. The lineage of the native Americans has a great deal to do with the Book of Mormon, so what information prophets have offered is relevant. Again we have a situation that follows the tired old apologetic strategy:

1. Prophet is correct: Ring the bells! This proves he is a prophet.

2. Prophet is incorrect: Don't sound the alarm. He was only speaking as a man. Better yet, he was misunderstood.

[brightpath]

Perhaps you can give us the source of your information. I suspect that you are misinterpreting some verses in the BOM, but let's see what you got.

To save you some embarrassment, the Jaredites were not Israelites.

Yes Israel didn't appear yet, but God has always worked with a chosen lineage. After the flood Noah had 3 sons and the chosen lineage continued through Shem. This is the lineage the Jaredites came through. This is also the lineage(Hebrew) Abraham and Isaac came through. The Jaredites were from this chosen lineage and thats why they were permitted to come to America by God.

[Robert F. Smith]

What does scholarship have to do with speaking for the Lord?

The lineage of the native Americans has a great deal to do with the Book of Mormon, so what information prophets have offered is relevant. Again we have a situation that follows the tired old apologetic strategy:

1. Prophet is correct: Ring the bells! This proves he is a prophet.

2. Prophet is incorrect: Don't sound the alarm. He was only speaking as a man. Better yet, he was misunderstood.

Again: Wrong Church. The official Doctrine of Infallibility was promulgated by Vatican I in Rome (July 1870), not within the LDS Church. Apologetics has nothing to do with it.

You might want to consider the recent observations of Terryl Givens, in his Oct 8, 2009, Willes Book of Mormon Lecture at BYU,

" . . . Joseph was relentless and adamant in presenting the story of the Book of Mormon's reception and translation as the paramount sign of his prophethood, even as he distanced himself--and potential readers--from what lay between its covers. He never sermonized from it. He virtually never quoted from it. After its publication, he never demonstrated intimate knowledge of its content or story line or themes. It is as if, like a court stenographer, he felt the text flow through him without ever taking cognizance of it. There is no evidence that he studied the Book of Mormon, or even read it after its publication (except to make the most minor of grammatical changes for subsequent editions)."

As for the early LDS missionaries, Givens goes on to observe,

" . . . they do not indicate they ever employed the text of the Book of Mormon itself as a basis for discussion, catechism, or conversation."

You can read this online at http://maxwellinstit...18&num=2&id=496 , or in the JBMS 18/2 (2009), 4-17 (page 11 of the special printed edition available from the Maxwell Institute).

[Monster]

Wouldn't you tend to believe an inspired prophet of God over DNA evidence(science, mans wisdom). Moreover, the title page of the Book of Mormon was written by the prophet Moroni under the direction of God.

When prophets start becoming as reliable as DNA then maybe. Until then I will go with the DNA

[dougtheavenger]

Native Americans are descendants of Asians. Mongolians to be specific. All you have to do is take a quick glance at the both of them to see that. Of course DNA evidence proves this conclusively.

Actually, the DNA evidence does not prove this. A plurality of American Indians have a Y-chromosome mutation called M346 that is not found in Mongolia, or any other part of North East Asia. M346 is found in the Middle East, however.

This website has a real problem with some URLs, so just google "Q1a3 wiki" to read up on this.

[brightpath]

When prophets start becoming as reliable as DNA then maybe. Until then I will go with the DNA

So when God sent Moroni to Joseph Smith's bedroom 3 separate times to declare this, He was wrong all 3 times. Furthermore, When Moroni was instructed and inspired by God to write the Title page of the BofM. He was wrong too. You can keep believing in mans wisdom(DNA-aka science). I will trust in the Lord and his ancient prophets.

[brightpath]

When prophets start becoming as reliable as DNA then maybe. Until then I will go with the DNA

So when God sent Moroni to Joseph Smith's bedroom 3 separate times to declare this, He was wrong all 3 times. Furthermore, When Moroni was instructed and inspired by God to write the Title page of the BofM. He was wrong too. You can keep believing in mans wisdom(DNA-aka science). I will trust in the Lord and his ancient prophets.