All Native Americans are Descendants of Jews

[ChristKnight]

Over on a Catholic forum (I assume I can't link to the thread in question?), LDS critics are making the claim that Joseph Smith claimed "boldly and without exception that all the native peoples of the Americas were descendants of Jews who had traveled from the middle east".

What is the real situation here? Did Joseph Smith actually make this claim?

[Nathair/|\]

He did not. For one thing, few of the people in the Book of Mormon were of the house of Judah.

[cdowis]

They are probably referring to an introduction to the BOM, which included a statement that the Lamanites were the principal ancestors of the American Indians. This has been discussed at length ==>> JS did not write it, and it has been replaced in current editions of the BOM.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Joseph believed the Native Americans had Lehi in their heritage. If any Lehites existed, survived and lived unisolated, by the time of 1500 years, his descendants would have spread throughout the Americas.

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/2002/05/olson.htm

An interesting article. Genealogy and mathematics indicates that everyone in the world is descended from Nefertiti and Confucius, and everyone of European ancestry is descended from Muhammad and Charlemagne. It doesn't show up in genetic tests, and that is because they are not our only ancestors.

If America contained any other people besides Lehi, then Lehi would only be among the many ancestors of Native Americans. The chance of finding any signs of his genetic markers is vanishingly small. But if Lehi existed in America then every Native American would eventually be a descendant of Lehi to one degree or another, no matter how limited the geography was.

[brightpath]

Please refer to the Wentworth Letters that Joseph Smith wrote and the title page of the Book of Mormon. The American Indians are a remnant of Jacob through Joseph, through Manasseh. American Indians>Lamanites>Manasseh-Lehi(Joseph)>Jerusalem(Remnant of Jacob). Yes they are from Jewish descent.

[StuddleyG]

Please refer to the Wentworth Letters that Joseph Smith wrote and the title page of the Book of Mormon. The American Indians are a remnant of Jacob through Joseph, through Manasseh. American Indians>Lamanites>Manasseh-Lehi(Joseph)>Jerusalem(Remnant of Jacob). Yes they are from Jewish descent.

Yes, but Joseph knew absolutely nothing about DNA. He made this statement based on the knowledge he had.

[brightpath]

Yes, but Joseph knew absolutely nothing about DNA. He made this statement based on the knowledge he had.

Wouldn't you tend to believe an inspired prophet of God over DNA evidence(science, mans wisdom). Moreover, the title page of the Book of Mormon was written by the prophet Moroni under the direction of God.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

They are probably referencing a scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants about where Zion would be located, near the boundary line between Jew and Gentile (west of Missouri was unorganized Indian Territory back then)...

There's a good chance that Zoram was either of Judah or Benjamin as well, quite possible. One of my ZLs in the mission field who is from Mexico City is of the tribe of Benjamin.

[Thinking]

I know what I was taught in primary and seminary, and it's interesting to read what Spencer W. Kimball said at the Lamanite Youth Conference in SLC on April 24, 1971.

With pride I tell those who come to my office that a Lamanite is a descendant of one Lehi who left Jerusalem six hundred years before Christ and with his family crossed the mighty deep and landed in America. And Lehi and his family became the ancestors of all of the Indian and Mestizo tribes in North and South and Central America and in the islands of the sea, for in the middle of their history there were those who left America in ships of their making and went to the islands of the sea.

Not until the revelations of Joseph Smith, bringing forth the Book of Mormon, did any one know of these migrants. It was not known before, but now the question is fully answered. Now the Lamanites number about sixty million; they are in all of the states of America from Tierra del Fuego all the way up to Point Barrows, and they are in nearly all the islands of the sea from Hawaii south to southern New Zealand. The Church is deeply interested in all Lamanites because of these revelations and because of this great Book of Mormon, their history that was written on plates of gold and deposited in the hill.

[cdowis]

Please refer to the Wentworth Letters that Joseph Smith wrote and the title page of the Book of Mormon. The American Indians are a remnant of Jacob through Joseph, through Manasseh. American Indians>Lamanites>Manasseh-Lehi(Joseph)>Jerusalem(Remnant of Jacob). Yes they are from Jewish descent.

Please do not give us your biased "summary" of what JS said. Give us the exact citation.

For example, the title page\

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites -- Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile -- Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation -- Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed -- To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof -- Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile -- The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven -- Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever -- And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations -- And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

I did an extensive search here and did not find the phrase "American Indian". Now, please show us precisely in the Wentworth Letter where JS wrote that "all of the American Indians are Jewish descent."

We are not morons.

[ERayR]

Please refer to the Wentworth Letters that Joseph Smith wrote and the title page of the Book of Mormon. The American Indians are a remnant of Jacob through Joseph, through Manasseh. American Indians>Lamanites>Manasseh-Lehi(Joseph)>Jerusalem(Remnant of Jacob). Yes they are from Jewish descent.

A remnant is a small piece. Small amount (detectable or not) = descendant.

[brightpath]

Thank you Thinking for your comments. They are true statements by Pres. Kimball. Cdowis, who do you think the Lamanites are? They are the American Indians a remnant of Jacob through Joseph. Joseph Smith proclaimed this, the greatest prophet of the last dispensation!

Wentworth letters-I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people, was made known unto me; Moroni said this to Joseph Smith 3 times to drill it in his head.

Wentworth Letters-In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel, at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian Era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites, and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem, about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The REMNANT are the INDIANS that now inhabit this country. Joseph Smith

Remnant refers to Lehi's group when he left Jerusalem. His group was small but when they arrived in America they increased in size.

[mfbukowski]

Lehi was from the tribe of Manasseh, and thus was not "Jewish" since Jews are from the tribe of Judah.

So any assertions that descendants of Lehi were Jews is totally wrong.

[LeSellers]

Lehi was from the tribe of Manasseh, and thus was not "Jewish" since Jews are from the tribe of Judah.

So any assertions that descendants of Lehi were Jews is totally wrong.

The problem with this true statement is that it ignores the Mulekites, who were (by lineage) Jews, he being a descendant of David. We know (or reasonably assume) that the Lehites and the Mulekites intermarried, so many descendants of Lehi could have been Jews.

Lehi

[mfbukowski]

The problem with this true statement is that it ignores the Mulekites, who were (by lineage) Jews, he being a descendant of David. We know (or reasonably assume) that the Lehites and the Mulekites intermarried, so many descendants of Lehi could have been Jews.

Lehi

Good point- you're right of course!

[Robert F. Smith]

They are true statements by Pres. Kimball. Cdowis, who do you think the Lamanites are? They are the American Indians a remnant of Jacob through Joseph. Joseph Smith proclaimed this, the greatest prophet of the last dispensation!

Wentworth letters-I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people, was made known unto me; Moroni said this to Joseph Smith 3 times to drill it in his head.

Wentworth Letters-In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel, at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian Era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites, and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem, about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The REMNANT are the INDIANS that now inhabit this country. Joseph Smith

Remnant refers to Lehi's group when he left Jerusalem. His group was small but when they arrived in America they increased in size.

Brother Joseph wrote his so-called Wentworth Letter to a newspaper editor in reply to his request to explain the nature of the Restoration. It was not a revelation and not part of the Doctrine & Covenants of the Church. As for the early apostles of Jesus, Joseph was a mere human doing the best he could to preach the Gospel (the "treasure in earthen vessels," II Cor 4:7 -- those "vessels" or clay pots being ordinary mortals carrying out their commissions). The same applies to the comments about Lamanites by Brother Spencer.

Joseph's Wentworth Letter reads like a college freshman's brief summary of the content of the Book of Mormon after a first read through. I'd give him an A, but would never confuse what he said with deep scholarship of the kind we expect from university professors.

A Roman Catholic anti-Mormon website might very well attribute infallibility to Joseph, since that is familiar to them as a claim of the papacy, but it is not an LDS claim.

Indians come from India. Humans once mistakenly thought that the Western Hemisphere was part of the region of the subcontinent of India. So anthropologists now generally refer to so-called American Indians as Amerinds. There are no "Native Americans." All are immigrants from somewhere else, from long ago to very recent times.

[mfbukowski]

Brother Joseph wrote his so-called Wentworth Letter to a newspaper editor in reply to his request to explain the nature of the Restoration. It was not a revelation and not part of the Doctrine & Covenants of the Church. As for the early apostles of Jesus, Joseph was a mere human doing the best he could to preach the Gospel (the "treasure in earthen vessels," II Cor 4:7 -- those "vessels" or clay pots being ordinary mortals carrying out their commissions). The same applies to the comments about Lamanites by Brother Spencer.

Joseph's Wentworth Letter reads like a college freshman's brief summary of the content of the Book of Mormon after a first read through. I'd give him an A, but would never confuse what he said with deep scholarship of the kind we expect from university professors.

A Roman Catholic anti-Mormon website might very well attribute infallibility to Joseph, since that is familiar to them as a claim of the papacy, but it is not an LDS claim.

Indians come from India. Humans once mistakenly thought that the Western Hemisphere was part of the region of the subcontinent of India. So anthropologists now generally refer to so-called American Indians as Amerinds. There are no "Native Americans." All are immigrants from somewhere else, from long ago to very recent times.

One might even make a case that indigenous Americans are not the descendants of Lehi at all. Moroni was the last of the line of Nephites as is shown in the Book of Mormon- all who were left were Lamanites, by definition. "Lamanites" are arguably all descendants of those who came over the Eurasian land/ice bridge.

The whole reason we have a Book of Mormon at all is based on the assumption that all the Nephites - sons of Nephi/Lehi were dead. I have never understood why we tend to ignore that point.

I am not pretending for a moment that "most members" think that at all.

And I could be very mistaken. It happened once before, I think in 1987. But I think one can make a very defensible case for this position and be totally consistent with the BOM.

[mfbukowski]

I know what I was taught in primary and seminary, and it's interesting to read what Spencer W. Kimball said at the Lamanite Youth Conference in SLC on April 24, 1971.

If he had said this while a prophet it might help your case a little, but even prophets do not speak canonized scripture with every word from their mouths.

And of course this was said before he was in fact a prophet, and at the time, was the widely held position of virtually all LDS.

[Marmonboy]

I recently read the book "1491", and in it was the assertion that at least 90% of the population of the Western Hemisphere died as a result of European diseases, many of them before they ever saw a European. Such diseases as smallpox and tuberculosis spread faster than the colonists, resulting in whole villages being found deserted by the first white people. If this is so, and I have no problem with accepting it, then most of the people on this side of the world who lacked the genetic makeup to resist such diseases died off, leaving those who, because of their more recent Old World origin had resistance to them. Hence, Lehi et al. most likely were contributors to the gene pool of this hemisphere. Which doesn't mean that we would be able to recognize the specific markers coming from Lehi, since we don't know exactly what those are.

That's what I think, anyway.

[Rob Bowman]

mfbukowski,

If a non-LDS might be permitted to make an observation on this subject....

You wrote:

Lehi was from the tribe of Manasseh, and thus was not "Jewish" since Jews are from the tribe of Judah. So any assertions that descendants of Lehi were Jews is totally wrong.

Although the Book of Mormon never calls Lehi's family "Jews," it does say explicitly that they were descendants of Jews:

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

mfbukowski,

If a non-LDS might be permitted to make an observation on this subject....

You wrote:

Although the Book of Mormon never calls Lehi's family "Jews," it does say explicitly that they were descendants of Jews:

[Rob Bowman]

Mola,

Thanks. We should also make note of the following statement:

[mfbukowski]

mfbukowski,

If a non-LDS might be permitted to make an observation on this subject....

You wrote:

Although the Book of Mormon never calls Lehi's family "Jews," it does say explicitly that they were descendants of Jews:

[ELF1024]

Over on a Catholic forum (I assume I can't link to the thread in question?), LDS critics are making the claim that Joseph Smith claimed "boldly and without exception that all the native peoples of the Americas were descendants of Jews who had traveled from the middle east".

What is the real situation here? Did Joseph Smith actually make this claim?

I believe we can say with some scientific authority that SOME or at least a MINIORITY of the Native American's have DNA that can be traced back to one of the tribes of Israel.

That is based on the scientific knowledge we have today. That doesn't rule out that at some point we may find more, or that at sometime in the future we will find out we are mistaken and have to throw out all the results thus far.

I believe those are the cold hard man-made facts of the situation.

However, I do believe that there are a great many of the Native American people who will be able to trace their lineage back to the Lehi-ites at some point. I did not say all, as I find the word "All" to be far too encompassing.

In any case we are unable to prove that at this point; and will need to wait for either a) Futher scientific knowledge B) The millenium when all will be revealed.

[Rob Bowman]

mfbukowski,

Your original statement was as follows:

So any assertions that descendants of Lehi were Jews is totally wrong.

Now you say that calling the Lehites "Jews" is like calling Frenchmen "Europeans" and that Lehites were "Jews" culturally or religiously, not tribally. This is somewhat confusing. Frenchmen are a subset of Europeans, just as Californians are a subset of Americans (and "Europeans" in this context is a geographical term, not a cultural or religious one). If "Jews" were a separate tribe from the tribe to which the Lehites belonged, then calling the Lehites Jews would be like calling Frenchmen Spaniards, not like calling them Europeans.

In any case, the Book of Mormon does not refer to the Lehites as Jews in a mere cultural or religious sense; it asserts, "they are descendants of the Jews" (2 Ne. 30:4). "Descendants" here can plausibly be understood only in an ethnic sense.