Cumorah_Ramah revisited

[Anijen]

Oh Rob, now you spoiled all the fun! To add salt to the wound, here's one of the Nephite flint mines:

1. It's on the National Register.

2. It wasn't discovered until 1921! [You mean we haven't found everything to be found in Brant's back yard?? ]

3. "In the pits were hundreds of stone maul heads and hammers. The dumps were full of them. More than a thousand were picked up from the quarries and the investigators then ceased to collect them because of their numbers." [Who'd a thought?? More than a thousand workers in one spot! Wow!!]

4. "Mr. Ray, who worked on these sites, procured for us more than 1500 finished blades of various sizes." [Those were like the crumbs compared to the total numbers.]

5. "This locality is the first untouched aboriginal quarry site in the State examined by the Museum and seems to be unique. It must have been worked for several centuries and two or three hundred workers must have been continuously engaged in the excavating and chipping." [You don't say.]

[New State Museum Bulletin, Nos. 239-240, November-December 1920, pp. 46-47]

I realize you are new to this site, that is if your not a sock puppet. None the less I CFR on it being a "Nephite flint mine" can you give us a link to a site besides a wiki one? The board rules states you need to cite your sources when called upon please do so with a link if possible. A few more questions;

1. How do you tell a Nephite flint mine from another type?

2. Does finding a thousand arrowheads in a flint mine equate to a thousand warriors at the same period of time. I mean this sounds silly but if I could get access to your information perhaps I could read it and not just *cough* take your word for it.

3. Isn't that what you would expect to find at a flint mine (many arrowheads)from the paleoindian of the pleistocene period to this century?

just to be fair here is what I found and the links;

The Hopewell culture had leaders, but they were not like powerful rulers who could command armies of slaves and soldiers. Many people from different villages worked together to build these large mounds and enclosures.

The Hopewell "explosion" was brilliant, but brief. It was all over by AD 400. The reasons for the decline of the Hopewell culture are not well understood. The shift during the succeeding Late Woodland period to larger villages surrounded by walls or ditches hints that increasing conflict may have been one factor in the abandonment of the earthworks and the far-flung networks of exchange.

note the shift to larger villages surrounded by walls and ditches started after 400 A.D.

link

[Anijen]

The discussion, although interesting, has wandered far from the original OP.

The question asked was

Do the hills shown in the picture fit the description of Cumorah/Ramah found in the Book of Mormon? especially the descriptions found in the book of Ether.

It matters not where they are located. However if the shoe fits, wear it. Dont throw it away because it is the wrong color or doesnt go with the outfit I am presently wearing.

Patriotism is great, however, to let it override the testimonies of eye witnesses who were prophets called by God to write these things and then hide them up for our benifit, is to put personal pride as a more important determinative than respect for God and His Prophets. Even though there may be remains of cultures in the United States that fit descriptions in the Book of Mormon, it is the cumulative explanation of all the data about geography in the text that must be accomodated in any theory of where the Book of MOrmon culture was located. Sorenson and JOseph & Blake Allen are the only ones that I know of to date who have made such an effort. Much of the Allen's work has been summarized on the BMAF website and should be required reading for anyone that desires to opine about Book of Mormon locations.

So let us put aside the argument of whether there is more than one Cumorah and examine the text of the Book of Mormon comparing it to the location depicted in the OP.

I apologize for my digression I will stick to the OP. I like this site and it matches very well with the text of the Book of Mormon. Thanks.

[againandagain]

The discussion, although interesting, has wandered far from the original OP. The question asked was Do the hills shown in the picture fit the description of Cumorah/Ramah found in the Book of Mormon? especially the descriptions found in the book of Ether. It matters not where they are located. However if the shoe fits, wear it.

I'll believe that when I see it. You have not addressed the fact that:

a. Official church history states the final battle was near Palmyra.

b. That Moroni and Mormon knew their people would be destroyed, thus they secured the plates for Joseph Smith prior to going "before my 10,000."

Patriotism is great, however, to let it override the testimonies of eye witnesses who were prophets called by God to write these things and then hide them up for our benifit, is to put personal pride as a more important determinative than respect for God and His Prophets.

b. That Moroni and Mormon knew their people would be destroyed, thus they secured the plates for Joseph Smith prior to going "before my 10,000."

Even though there may be remains of cultures in the United States that fit descriptions in the Book of Mormon, it is the cumulative explanation of all the data about geography in the text that must be accomodated in any theory of where the Book of Mormon culture was located. Sorenson and Joseph & Blake Allen are the only ones that I know of to date who have made such an effort.

You mean like "land" prophecies and promises? Like Sorenson did, with his ONE reference? You're fooling no one Poulsen - no offense.

[Bob Crockett]

General Authorities . . . mistakenly believed . . . silly beliefs

Versus

intense, thorough, and systematic effort employed by Sorenson

I tend to want to line up with the silly beliefs of general authorities rather than what looks to me to be speculation of the rankest sort.

[mapman]

againandagain:

I have two suggestions. First, it may be more appropriate if you start you're own thread about whether there are one or two Cumorahs. Second, due to your extensive use of caps, bolding, and underlining it gives the impression that you are yelling at people. That may just be because tone is difficult to transmute through the internet, but it is kind of disconcerting.

Thanks!

[Brant Gardner]

Can you answer where the numerous DIRT AND WOOD FORTIFIED CITIES ARE down there??? There are none.

Readers listen up, Nephite cities were fortified by LARGE dirt walls interspersed with timber and topped with timber, with DITCHES; LARGE, DEEP DITCHES ON THE OUTSIDE OF THEIR FORTS.

YOUR MODEL BETTER HAVE HUNDREDS OF THESE THINGS DOCUMENTED AND STANDING. If not, it's not Book of Mormon land, sorry.

Then we are still OK for Mesoamerica. Most of these dry moats were missed in early excavations. Having been found (at locations such as Becan) they are now part of the list of things to look for, and they are found in increasing numbers as they continue to dig. These are dry moats that use the dirt to build up a mound, on top of which are staked fences. That is precisely what the Book of Mormon suggests. If that is your only criterion, you now have at least two places that qualify. Your assertion that there are none is clearly ignorant of the data.

[againandagain]

againandagain:

I have two suggestions. First, it may be more appropriate if you start you're own thread about whether there are one or two Cumorahs. Second, due to your extensive use of caps, bolding, and underlining it gives the impression that you are yelling at people.

Merely a way to draw the short attention span of quick readers.

Then we are still OK for Mesoamerica. Most of these dry moats were missed in early excavations. Having been found (at locations such as Becan) they are now part of the list of things to look for, and they are found in increasing numbers as they continue to dig. These are dry moats that use the dirt to build up a mound, on top of which are staked fences. That is precisely what the Book of Mormon suggests. If that is your only criterion, you now have at least two places that qualify. Your assertion that there are none is clearly ignorant of the data.

Nice try...there's always an alternative, squarely fitting peg for the round holes. Have you read the references? They say NOTHING about building "up a mound." These are dirt walls, with trenches on the outside from where they shoveled the dirt - of an exceeding height. They should be known and noticed by the locals, in fact, unmistakable. Surely, with all the interest down south, someone somewhere has compiled of list of them, or at least a couple dozen of them. Most importantly, let's skip to the next part, "are they where your purported BoM cities are? Since Allen et. al. have chosen key locations without mention these things, it's apparent they aren't there, nor were they.

Contrast that with the hundreds of fort remnants in North America. They're where they are suppose to be, and none where they should not be. Amazing.

[poulsenll]

Merely a way to draw the short attention span of quick readers.

Please start your own thread and take your arguments with you.

Larry P

[Log]

Christensen, you're embarrassing yourself. The only thing anyone needs to know is whether Joseph believed the final battle occurred near Palmyra. Did he? Yes, here it is in black and white:

LATTER DAY SAINTS' MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE, Volume I. No. 1. KIRTLAND, OHIO, OCTOBER, 1834, p. 157-158

Really? I'm not seeing it. When I search for "battle," all I get is Cowdery's writings and not Smith's.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

PoulsenLL,

Sorry if I let the rantings of a juvenile (or at least one who writes like a juvenile, or even worse, one of the antis), digress me from the OP.

Maya had an interesting point about Cerro Bernal, a medium distance to the north near Mante, Tamaulipas. It would seem rather imposing, but it lacks a Shim counterpart.

Something which your mountains (and the mountains near Vigia) both have.

[againandagain]

Sometime ago there was a discussion about proposals for the Hill Cumorah other than the one in New York. Here is a new possibility. Larry P

Please start your own thread and take your arguments with you. Larry P

Do you realize you're wasting time posturing an anti-Mormon position? See the following response:

Really? I'm not seeing it. When I search for "battle," all I get is Cowdery's writings and not Smith's.

Joseph's part was stated at the beginning:

"That our narrative may be correct

, and particularly the introduction, it is proper to inform our patrons, that our brother

J. SMITH jr. has offered to assist us."

(LATTER DAY SAINTS' MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE, Volume I. No. 1. KIRTLAND, OHIO, OCTOBER, 1834 p. 12)

Sorry if I let the rantings of a juvenile (or at least one who writes like a juvenile, or even worse, one of the antis), digress me from the OP.

Pardon me for quoting official church history! How do you guys sleep at night, or look in the mirror? Seriously.

[Log]

Joseph's part was stated at the beginning:

"That our narrative may be correct

, and particularly the introduction, it is proper to inform our patrons, that our brother

J. SMITH jr. has offered to assist us."

(LATTER DAY SAINTS' MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE, Volume I. No. 1. KIRTLAND, OHIO, OCTOBER, 1834 p. 12)

You expect someone to believe that you believe that the fact that Joseph Smith assisted in producing that issue of the Messenger and Advocate, particularly in the introduction, constitutes definitive proof of Smith's alleged belief that the final battle of the Nephites took place in New York?

[againandagain]

You expect someone to believe that you believe that the fact that Joseph Smith assisted in producing that issue of the Messenger and Advocate, particularly in the introduction, constitutes definitive proof of Smith's alleged belief that the final battle of the Nephites took place in New York?

Why? Just because it was his church and the public wanted to know its history, that's no reason for him to have an interest. Yet he did, and it was REPRINTED in OFFICIAL church publications including Times and Seasons (1840), Gospel Reflector (1841) and Letters by Oliver, Liverpool (1844).

Why may I ask is that hard for you accept?

[rodheadlee]

Do you realize you're wasting time posturing an anti-Mormon position? See the following response:

Joseph's part was stated at the beginning:

"That our narrative may be correct

, and particularly the introduction, it is proper to inform our patrons, that our brother

J. SMITH jr. has offered to assist us."

(LATTER DAY SAINTS' MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE, Volume I. No. 1. KIRTLAND, OHIO, OCTOBER, 1834 p. 12)

Pardon me for quoting official church history! How do you guys sleep at night, or look in the mirror? Seriously.

Are you Meldrum?

[againandagain]

The discussion, although interesting, has wandered far from the original OP.

The question asked was

Do the hills shown in the picture fit the description of Cumorah/Ramah found in the Book of Mormon? especially the descriptions found in the book of Ether.

Poulsen, explain to us your directions. If Omer traveled EAST past your location for the hill Cumorah, where did he Omer go?

[againandagain]

Are you Meldrum?

Pleeeease.

[poulsenll]

Poulsen, explain to us your directions. If Omer traveled EAST past your location for the hill Cumorah, where did he Omer go?

If he followed the river to the north of El Crro del Hueso, he would have arrived at the seashore at Nautla. Omer called it Abom. Nautla is a sizable town located near the ruins of Las Higueras. These ruins date to Jaredite times.

http://www.pinturamural.esteticas.unam.mx/Pdf/boletin18.pdf

Las Higueras es un sitio arqueol

[rodheadlee]

Pleeeease.

A yes or no answer would do.

[againandagain]

If he followed the river to the north of El Crro del Hueso, he would have arrived at the seashore at Nautla. Omer called it Abom. Nautla is a sizable town located near the ruins of Las Higueras. These ruins date to Jaredite times.

Larry P

Seems to meet requirements of: Riplicancum on the north (a river in your interpretation of varying size depending on the season), and an actual seashore east of your hill Cumorah. The only other questions are: were is the west sea and narrow neck, since Moron, from which Omer came, was near there.

[Log]

Why may I ask is that hard for you accept?

I notice, for the record, you didn't answer the question, no doubt because your "smoking gun" had just fired a blank.

[poulsenll]

PoulsenLL,

Sorry if I let the rantings of a juvenile (or at least one who writes like a juvenile, or even worse, one of the antis), digress me from the OP.

Maya had an interesting point about Cerro Bernal, a medium distance to the north near Mante, Tamaulipas. It would seem rather imposing, but it lacks a Shim counterpart.

Something which your mountains (and the mountains near Vigia) both have.

The problem with Vigia is that Vigia is east of Cintepec not west as noted in Ether 9:3. This location has the correct directional relationship as noted in this scripture.

One of the reasons for picking Vigia were the presence of extensive ruins at Tres Zapotes. However, the culture at Tres Zapotes was never abandoned as were other Olmec centers and existed continuously until the at least 900 AD. It is unlikely that Mormon would have chosen an area that was fully occupied and likely to resist any new occupation, especially one that was preparing for a major war.

Yes we tend to forget that Cumorah/Ramah must go hand in hand with Shim (Maize Mountain). Although Cerro Bernal is isolated in the plains of the gulf coast, in addition to not having a hill Shim, it is quite rugged and leaves no room for a defensive position at the top of the hill. One of the things that Ainsworth emphasized after his visit there the first time was the difficuly of ascending and decending the hill. Mormon picked Cumorah because he saw it as an advantageous place to defend his people agains the Lamanites. El Cerro del Hueso is part of a circle of mountains with a central valley that opens to the east. There is a river with its headwaters in the foothills inside the circle of mountains, that with abundant springs in the area, would provide water and even today cultivated areas can be seen using Google Earth.

Maija

Even though Cerro Bernal fits half of the description of the Land of Cumorah/Ramah, not only does it lack a significant hill that fits the description of Shim, all the cultivatable land is in the plain surrending the hill and would be very difficult to defend. Remember, even though Mormon knew this would be the final battle place, the Nephites had a different opinion and would not accept a location that failed to provide a significant defensive benefit.

Larry P

[poulsenll]

Seems to meet requirements of: Riplicancum on the north (a river in your interpretation of varying size depending on the season), and an actual seashore east of your hill Cumorah. The only other questions are: were is the west sea and narrow neck, since Moron, from which Omer came, was near there.

The only scripture that mentions the location of Moron is found in

Ether 7:3

6 Now the land of Moron, where the king dwelt, was near the land which is called Desolation by the Nephites.

Although the Land desolation may have extended to near the west sea in the narrow neck it was generally described to be near the land northward and significantly north of Zarahemla as described in

Alma 22: 30-32

30 And it bordered upon the land which they called aDesolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bbones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their first landing.

31 And they came from there aup into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called cDesolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful, it being the wilderness which is filled with all manner of wild animals of every kind, a part of which had come from the land northward for food.

The people of Zarahemla came up into the Land of Zarahemla from the north.

If the Isthmus of Tehuantepec is the Narrow neck then the land of desolation must have extended from the Pacific Ocean (west sea) northward to the Gulf of Mexico and along the gulf coast into the land northward. Based on this rational, the land Moron could be anywhere west , northwest of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec, probably somewhere in the state of Oaxaca.

Omer traveled many days before coming to the Land of Cumorah/Ramah probably from the northwest somewhere in Oaxacaa although he may have come directly from the west traveling eastward all the way. Either possibility fits.

Larry P

[poulsenll]

In Mormon 6:4

4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

we read mormon's description of the Land of Cumorah/Ramah. He describes it as "a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains".

In the "Relacion de Misantla" we read.

abunden manantiales, lagunas y arroyos.Los grandes rios forman una verdadera red hidrografica y es notableque aun en los cerros se encuentran peque

[Skylla]

I'll believe that when I see it. You have not addressed the fact that:

a. Official church history states the final battle was near Palmyra.

b. That Moroni and Mormon knew their people would be destroyed, thus they secured the plates for Joseph Smith prior to going "before my 10,000."

b. That Moroni and Mormon knew their people would be destroyed, thus they secured the plates for Joseph Smith prior to going "before my 10,000."

You mean like "land" prophecies and promises? Like Sorenson did, with his ONE reference? You're fooling no one Poulsen - no offense.

You could find less inflammatory ways to state your disagreement with the OP. Start your own thread and stop derailing this one.

Skylla

[Robert F. Smith]

The only thing anyone needs to know is whether Joseph believed the final battle occurred near Palmyra. Did he? Yes, here it is in black and white:

LATTER DAY SAINTS' MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE, Volume I. No. 1. KIRTLAND, OHIO, OCTOBER, 1834, p. 157-158

Can you answer where the numerous DIRT AND WOOD FORTIFIED CITIES ARE down there??? There are none.

Readers listen up, Nephite cities were fortified by LARGE dirt walls interspersed with timber and topped with timber, with DITCHES; LARGE, DEEP DITCHES ON THE OUTSIDE OF THEIR FORTS.

YOUR MODEL BETTER HAVE HUNDREDS OF THESE THINGS DOCUMENTED AND STANDING. If not, it's not Book of Mormon land, sorry.

Over time, Joseph held a wide array of views on where Book of Mormon events took place, and any of us might have done likewise in his day. He knew no more about where such events took place than any other person who had read the Book of Mormon in those times. What is noteworthy is that, when he got hold of the 1841 2-volume work by John Lloyd Stephens, Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan (N.Y.: Harper), it sparked the same sort of opinions in him which any of us might have come up with then as well. His responses placing some Book of Mormon events in Mesoamerica are listed at http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Statements/Nineteenth_century/Joseph_Smith's_lifetime_1829-1840/Joseph_Smith .

As to the well-known Mesoamerican feature of deep moats dug, and earthworks thrown up, with a wood palisade constructed on top for defensive fortifications, you might want to read http://www.jefflinds...om/BForts.shtml for a general view of such fortifications in Book of Mormon lands; see also http://en.wikipedia....iki/Mesoamerica on the early use of such palisades at San Jose Mogote in the Valley of Oaxaca; Bruce Owen discusses such fortifications at Becan in central Yucatan (5 meter deep moat, a 12 meter high earth embankment, with a timber palisade on top), and at other settlements at http://bruceowen.com...ist/3250s18.htm ; Ross Hassig, War and Society in Ancient Mesoamerica (1992), 219 n. 34, says that

"the relative absence of fortifications in the Maya lowlands is at least partly the result of not looking for them and because the primary thrust has been to look for earthen and stone walls, leading archaeologists to ignore possible organic remains of such defensive structures as wooden palisades. The large defensive wall and dry moat at Tikal were not recognized as such for years despite being pierced by paths along which archaeologists repeatedly passed between Tikal and Uaxactun. Palisades would leave even fewer traces (Webster 1976a:89;m 1979:148)."

The problem for you is that the evidence doesn't support your assertions, and you are unwilling to admit as much when confronted. You have not yet learned how to deal humbly with your own cognitive dissonance. In your case that leads to denial of reality.