Cumorah_Ramah revisited

[poulsenll]

Sometime ago there was a discussion about proposals for the Hill Cumorah other than the one in New York. Here is a new possibility.

In

Mormon 6:4

4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of amany waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

An in

Ether 9: 3

3 And the Lord awarned Omer in a dream that he should depart out of the land; wherefore Omer bdeparted out of the land with his family, and traveled many days, and came over and passed by the hill of cShim, and came over by the place dwhere the Nephites were destroyed, and from thence eastward, and came to a place which was called Ablom, by the seashore, and there he pitched his tent, and also his sons and his daughters, and all his household, save it were Jared and his family.

In 1962 David Ramirez Lavoignet described this area as follows:

abunden manantiales, lagunas y arroyos.Los grandes rios forman una verdadera red hidrografica y es notableque aun en los cerros se encuentran pequnos fuentes.

Translation for those who do not read Spanish.

lagunas = lagoons

Rios = rivers

Manantiales = fountains

Fuentes = springs

This area meets all of the geographic constraints found in Mormon 6:4 and Ether 9:3

There are two hills, one to the west and another to the east that are oriented correctly to be the Hill Shim, sugested by Palmer and others to mean Corn Hill, and Cumorah/Ramah. The one to the west is just north of an arqueological ruins called Paxil. According to Brian Stross at the Univ of Texas, Paxil is a Totonaca word meaning Maize Mountain (corn hill) and is proposed to be one of three locations proposed for the place where maize originated. The one to the east is called Omitepl also known as Cerro del Hueso (English Bone Hill).

Al noreste,..., se encuentra se encuentran los cerros de Mazatepec,Campeche y del Hueso, el ultimollamado originalmente Omiteptl

Edited to correct the name of the eastern hill. This information comes from Dsvid Ramirez Lavoignet, Relacion de ?, page 42, 1962.

Larry P

[Brant Gardner]

Larry:

Slight correction. Ometepec is nahuatl and is derived from "ome" ="two" and "tepec" "place/land of a hill". It is therefore "two hill," or another source I saw said "between two hills." There is no etymology that gives us "bone."

[poulsenll]

Sometime ago there was a discussion about proposals for the Hill Cumorah other than the one in New York. Here is a new possibility.

In

An in

In 1962 David Ramirez Lavoignet described this area as follows:

Translation for those who do not read Spanish.

lagunas = lagoons

Rios = rivers

Manantiales = fountains

Fuentes = springs

This area meets all of the geographic constraints found in Mormon 6:4 and Ether 9:3

There are two hills, one to the west and another to the east that are oriented correctly to be the Hill Shim, sugested by Palmer and others to mean Corn Hill, and Cumorah/Ramah. The one to the west is just north of an arqueological ruins called Paxil. According to Brian Stross at the Univ of Texas, Paxil is a Totonaca word meaning Maize Mountain (corn hill) and is proposed to be one of three locations proposed for the place where maize originated. The one to the east is called Ometepec or in English Bone Hill.

Larry P

Brant

The designation as "bone hill" was from a report about the local area designation and not necesarily a translation of ometepec.

Larry P

[poulsenll]

There was a need for some corrections to the origiunal post. Brant's note about the meaning sent me back to the original citation and I found that I had misremembered the name of the hill. The graphic has been corrected and more info, but not all, about the location has been added. I am hoping that some will try to locate the area on their own. One hint, it is on this continent.

Larry P

[mapman]

It is by the town Misantla, Veracruz, Mexico:

[poulsenll]

It is by the town Misantla, Veracruz, Mexico:

Nice detective work Mapman. How did you find it? or had you already been there?

For those interested the site is described in "Relacion de MIlanta" by David Ramirez Lavoignet

Larry P

[mapman]

Nice detective work Mapman. How did you find it? or had you already been there?

For those interested the site is described in "Relacion de MIlanta" by David Ramirez Lavoignet

Larry P

I went up along the coastline west from el Cerro Vigia in Google Earth until I found the hill that looked like the one in your picture.

[poulsenll]

I went up along the coastline west from el Cerro Vigia in Google Earth until I found the hill that looked like the one in your picture.

That darn coastline gave it away. Incidentally, I only found it last week while looking for a plausible northern boundary for the land of Desolation. After seeing the orientation of the two mountains I went to the library at UT where I found the rest of the information that ties it into the Book of Mormon description of the land of Cumorah/Ramah.

Here is a nice map of the rivers in this area. They stretch from the mountain range just north of the Papaloapan basin to the Rio Tecolutla.

From the Book of Ether 15:8-11

8 And it came to pass that he came to the waters of Ripliancum, which, by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all; wherefore, when they came to these waters they pitched their tents; and Shiz also pitched his tents near unto them; and therefore on the morrow they did come to battle.

9 And it came to pass that they fought an exceedingly sore battle, in which Coriantumr was wounded again, and he fainted with the loss of blood.

10 And it came to pass that the armies of Coriantumr did press upon the armies of Shiz that they beat them, that they caused them to flee before them; and they did flee southward, and did pitch their tents in a place which was called Ogath.

11 And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did ahide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.

Coriantumr and Shiz first encountered a land of waters that were large, or to exceed all. After fighting there they moved southward to the area of Cumorah/Ramah where they camped near each other and then gathered their forces for four years and then commenced the final battle. The land of Misantla is in the southern part of this land filled with many, many rivers.

Larry P

[againandagain]

Here is a nice map of the rivers in this area. They stretch from the mountain range just north of the Papaloapan basin to the Rio Tecolutla.

From the Book of Ether 15:8-11

8 And it came to pass that he came to the waters of Ripliancum, which, by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all; wherefore, when they came to these waters they pitched their tents; and Shiz also pitched his tents near unto them; and therefore on the morrow they did come to battle.

9 And it came to pass that they fought an exceedingly sore battle, in which Coriantumr was wounded again, and he fainted with the loss of blood.

10 And it came to pass that the armies of Coriantumr did press upon the armies of Shiz that they beat them, that they caused them to flee before them; and they did flee southward, and did pitch their tents in a place which was called Ogath.

11 And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did ahide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.

Coriantumr and Shiz first encountered a land of waters that were large, or to exceed all. After fighting there they moved southward to the area of Cumorah/Ramah where they camped near each other and then gathered their forces for four years and then commenced the final battle. The land of Misantla is in the southern part of this land filled with many, many rivers.

Larry P

That's a third verse bearing on the location of Cumorah...not sure why you did not cite it up front in the op, but since you now acknowledge that body of water north of Cumorah, where is it on Google Earth? And since you reference the Hill Shim as another reference point, where are the south and west seas on Google Earth? Inquiring minds want to know.

[poulsenll]

That's a third verse bearing on the location of Cumorah...not sure why you did not cite it up front in the op, but since you now acknowledge that body of water north of Cumorah, where is it on Google Earth? And since you reference the Hill Shim as another reference point, where are the south and west seas on Google Earth? Inquiring minds want to know.

Except for the reference to Mormon 6:4, these scriptures are all to the Book of Ether. The Book of Ether does not mention any seas, it only refers to a seashore to the east. Mormon 6:4 refers to the Land of Cumorah/Ramah, a land located in the Land Northward where there is only an east sea. The south and west seas mentioned in Mormon's abridgment of the Nephite records are with reference to the Land of Zarahemla. Centering the Land of Zarahemla in the Chiapas depresion of Mesoamerica results in the Pacific ocean to the south and to the west with the Carrabean sea to the east and the Gulf of Mexico to the north. The area under discusion in the OP is the Jaradite lands that are spoken of in the Book of Ether. The only area common to both is the Land and Hill of Cumorah/Ramah and we only know of they refer to the same area because of a comment by Moroni while abstracting the plates of Ether.

Ripliancum stretchs from the mountain range just north of the Papaloapan basin to the Rio Tecolutla. It includes the waters around Cumorah/Ramah. The map only includes the area around Misantla but the abundance of rivers, streams and Manantials continues north to the Rio Tecolutla.

Larry P

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Interesting position of Cumorah/Ramah. There were still rather sizable ruins to the north of there (TAJIN being an example), but your position would put Cumorah and Shim deep in the heart of Olmec territory, but dislodged a bit to the north (whereas the Hill Vigia would put it further south of the Olmec Heartland).

Interesting maps that you have put here.

[againandagain]

Except for the reference to Mormon 6:4, these scriptures are all to the Book of Ether. The Book of Ether does not mention any seas, it only refers to a seashore to the east.

It does mention, as you quote, Ripliancum to the north. Where is that on Google Earth?

[poulsenll]

Interesting position of Cumorah/Ramah. There were still rather sizable ruins to the north of there (TAJIN being an example), but your position would put Cumorah and Shim deep in the heart of Olmec territory, but dislodged a bit to the north (whereas the Hill Vigia would put it further south of the Olmec Heartland).

Interesting maps that you have put here.

The Hill Vijia is actually in the Olmec hertland between La Venta and Tres Zapotes.

There are also numerous ruins in the Misantla basin as well. One is located at lat 21.924495, long 98.811378. It is just south of what I propose as the Hill Shim and is called Paxil a location described in the Popul Vuh as the place of origin of Maize.

Larry P

[againandagain]

The Hill Vijia is actually in the Olmec hertland between La Venta and Tres Zapotes.

There are also numerous ruins in the Misantla basin as well. One is located at lat 21.924495, lat 98.811378. It is just south of what I propose as the Hill Shim and is called Paxil a location described in the Popul Vuh as the place of origin of Maize.

Larry P

That was a rhetorical question as there are no "large to exceed all" bodies of water north of Misantla. There are other sea references in regards to the Hill Shim, which is mentioned by both writers.

[Anijen]

Very very cool!

[poulsenll]

It does mention, as you quote, Ripliancum to the north. Where is that on Google Earth?

Lat 20.232 to lat 19.93 and long 96.63 to long 97.16 aproximately.

Larry P

[poulsenll]

That was a rhetorical question as there are no "large to exceed all" bodies of water north of Misantla. There are other sea references in regards to the Hill Shim, which is mentioned by both writers.

Read the scripture carefully. It says "Waters of Ripliancum". It then defines Ripliacum as "large to exceed all". both mentions of water in this verse are plural and therefore can not refer to a single body of water. Rivers are bodies of water and can get very large during the rainy season, sometimes flooding whole valleys in this area of Mesoamerica. The Jaredites including Ether, the recorder of events, were there for four years so certainly they were there during at least several rainy seasons.

Larry P

[againandagain]

Read the scripture carefully. It says "Waters of Ripliancum". It then defines Ripliacum as "large to exceed all". both mentions of water in this verse are plural and therefore can not refer to a single body of water. Rivers are bodies of water and can get very large during the rainy season, sometimes flooding whole valleys in this area of Mesoamerica. The Jaredites including Ether, the recorder of events, were there for four years so certainly they were there during at least several rainy seasons.

Larry P

Your need to interpret like that is apparent, however, "Ripliancum" is not a plural, and the use of the word "river" already occurred. Thirdly, rivers can be crossed, and in a fight for your life, can provide the easiest of escapes by swimming or floating depending on the current, to safety. Ripliancum was not used.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Read the scripture carefully. It says "Waters of Ripliancum". It then defines Ripliacum as "large to exceed all". both mentions of water in this verse are plural and therefore can not refer to a single body of water. Rivers are bodies of water and can get very large during the rainy season, sometimes flooding whole valleys in this area of Mesoamerica. The Jaredites including Ether, the recorder of events, were there for four years so certainly they were there during at least several rainy seasons.

Larry P

Having served part of my mission in Tabasco, albeit further south than this area, I am quite familiar with the rivers rising and at times eating up towns down there. Same happens in the Papaloapan and Panuco basins as well, south and north of your map as well, respectively.

[mapman]

I think that it is interesting how the hill has steep sides but a fairly flat top and is nearly surrounded by rivers. I would imagine that that would be a military advantage.

[againandagain]

Having served part of my mission in Tabasco, albeit further south than this area, I am quite familiar with the rivers rising and at times eating up towns down there. Same happens in the Papaloapan and Panuco basins as well, south and north of your map as well, respectively.

Actually, that's evidence contrary to a model down there as NEVER does the record report rains, flash floods, or typhoons destroying their DIRT fortifications. Also, the Land of Desolation had a sea west and east of it.

I think that it is interesting how the hill has steep sides but a fairly flat top and is nearly surrounded by rivers. I would imagine that that would be a military advantage.

How would that be an advantage aside from offering the best seat in the house? Neither Mormon nor Moroni used that to attack the enemy as both where out in FRONT OF THEIR TEN THOUSAND EACH!

The Hill would have been the furthest place from the front line. Where was the front line in this hypothetical? And why did survivors only escape south? Keep in mind, the entire width of the Land of

Desolation was only 1.5 days wide!

[LeSellers]

Mormon [and] Moroni ... where [sic] out in FRONT OF THEIR TEN THOUSAND EACH![your emphasis]

This is the basis for a lot of confusion.

"Ten thousand" was not necessarily a number, it could (and probably was) the name of a military unit (similar to a Roman "Decade" or "Century"). It did not have to have a full complement (even if the name reflected the "doctrinal" head count). My experience with the military (but it was only 21+ years, so I could be wrong) shows that a "company" (nominally about 400 soldiers) could have as few as ten mission-capable soldiers, including the commander (whose command was what made it a "company", even if he had been killed).

There is no reason to suppose that Moroni led 10,000 men into the battle. It could have been many fewer.

And, yes, even though there were many "ten thousands", each under its commander, the fact that they could have been re-organized into one, larger and more "correct" (as to size) unit does not preclude the possibility (or probability) that under-manned units would maintain their command structure.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

.

[Rob Osborn]

I know you guys all realize that the church officially places the hill Cumorah in upstate New York but I am always drawn to the idea of "why" members insist that it wasn't? Very few scriptures give any certain data as to its location on the land. Only vague descriptions of it abound in scripture. We only know it was in the north country and that it was in a place of many waters.

I think what one must do is to positively first show that it wasn't in New York before they can honestly start looking elsewhere. Why doesn't New York fit? Was it too far away? But too far away from what? Was it too cold of a place? Was it not geographically in line with the text? But in comparison to what? We are not sure exactly where either the Jaredites or the Nephites reigned and had their cities of importance. How can we be sure that any ruin or ruins is from BoM peoples? Are we trying to make a shoe fit or are we truly trying to find the right shoe?

[Rob Osborn]

This is the basis for a lot of confusion.

"Ten thousand" was not necessarily a number, it could (and probably was) the name of a military unit (similar to a Roman "Decade" or "Century"). It did not have to have a full complement (even if the name reflected the "doctrinal" head count). My experience with the military (but it was only 21+ years, so I could be wrong) shows that a "company" (nominally about 400 soldiers) could have as few as ten mission-capable soldiers, including the commander (whose command was what made it a "company", even if he had been killed).

There is no reason to suppose that Moroni led 10,000 men into the battle. It could have been many fewer.

And, yes, even though there were many "ten thousands", each under its commander, the fact that they could have been re-organized into one, larger and more "correct" (as to size) unit does not preclude the possibility (or probability) that under-manned units would maintain their command structure.

Lehi

I feel confident that when it says "ten thousand" in the BoM that it pretty much meant exactly that- ten thousand individual souls. There is no reason to believe anything else. The BoM is pretty consistant with using numbers of actual counts of peoples in battles. Think of the Jaredites- at one time in their warring battles at the end there were "millions" slain.