Cumorah_Ramah revisited

[againandagain]

Here are some reasons why I favor Mesoamerica...

That's wonderful. Now, where are there HUNDREDS of remnant dirt fortifications described in the Book of Mormon?

[Anijen]

Thank you for admitting ignorance. And those three books, you remember what they say? I suggest you revisit those and look for the words "corn" and "copper."

Lets put the lie "no official position" to rest once and for all. Official church history, read it and weep:

LATTER DAY SAINTS' MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE, Volume I. No. 1. KIRTLAND, OHIO, OCTOBER, 1834, p. 157-158

Btw, this church history was reprinted in the Times and Seasons (1840), and Gospel Reflector (1841) and Letters by Oliver, Liverpool (1844).

The following WAS given over the pulpit by an APOSTLE:

We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property. When we went up there and looked around, we felt that we were standing on holy ground. The brethren located, as near as they thought was possible, the place from which the plates of the Book of Mormon were taken by the Prophet. We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill. Evidence of the great battles that have been fought there in days gone by are manifest in the numerous spear and arrow-heads that have been found by farmers while plowing in that neighborhood. We were fortunate enough to obtain a few of the arrowheads. (George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, Third Day

[Anijen]

That's wonderful. Now, where are there HUNDREDS of remnant dirt fortifications described in the Book of Mormon?

the dirt fortifications described in the Book of Mormon were to strengthen the defenses of its cities now you please show me theses hundreds of mounds you are speaking of that was built up for a strategical defense. That is quite a bit of difference compared to a small hill to bury a few natives and their pipes and beads.

[againandagain]

Ah yes the Sampson quote. Sampson profited greatly selling these artifacts as leftovers from the final battle.... Of course Sampson had a motive to say things like that he was making money off the mormons.... Show me one arrowhead or stone tool or metal tool any war tool or skeleton that was found at the New York hill Cumorah. I mean there were thousands right? It least one museum should have some of these that were farmed up from the Hill Cumorah site. just one that is from that hill that dates to the Book of Mormon.

Anijen, which is easier:

a. Travel to a flint quarry and make a new arrow head.

b. Gather thousands off an old battle field.

[Anijen]

Who were the Adena Indians and how did they farm?

The Adena Indians used tools made of stone, animal bone, and tortoise shell to grow crops of squash, pumpkins, gourds, sunflowers and maize. The primary agrcultural product of the Ohio Indians, shortly after the introduction of agriculture to Knox County, was maize. After the introduction

"What they depended on were a variety of native plants that provided relatively small seeds...And they planted these things in what we assumer were relatively small gardens and harvested those things on a regular basis. They were situating themselves where they could do farming but also would be able to go up into the hills to take some wild game and probably also a variety of different plants would be available."

Nick Kardulius, Kenyon College Professor

100 BCE Hopewell Indians largely replaced the Adena Indians

Who were the Hopewell Indians?

The Hopewell relied on farming as well as hunting, fishing, and gathering for food. They grew a variety of crops including squash and corn. To the left is a picture of the Hopewell Indians gathering native plants.

Photo from Library of Congress

How did Native Americans farm?

Before the arrival of white settlers, the only tools which the Indians of this area had were stone hatchets, pointed sticks, and bone shovels and hoes. After the settlers arrived, Indian agricultural began to change. The Ohio Indians of the 1700's combined methods of the Adena Indians with new methods which were influenced by white settlers. The Ohio Indians planted corn, their largest crop, in May. They would first soak the kernels in water and then plant them in holes three or four feet apart. Ohio Indians also relied on beans, nuts, and wild fruits for their diet. The Indian tribes would abandon their land every five or ten years, despite the difficulty of clearing new land, because they believed that overusing the land would ruin the soil. This method may have been the first form of rotational farming in the area.

Edited to say again every expert I can find on the Adena or the Hopewell tradition have them as foragers with limited agriculture, nothing within its limits to support large populations.

[Anijen]

Anijen, which is easier:

a. Travel to a flint quarry and make a new arrow head.

b. Gather thousands off an old battle field.

Its easier to gather off an old battlefield. But that is what Sampson did from all over not from the Hill Cumorah, he then sold them to the unsuspecting mormons and telling them what they wanted to hear which was they wanted to buy one from Cumorah oh wait a second he happens to have one here. Its called being gullible.

[againandagain]

the dirt fortifications described in the Book of Mormon were to strengthen the defenses of its cities now you please show me theses hundreds of mounds you are speaking of that was built up for a strategical defense. That is quite a bit of difference compared to a small hill to bury a few natives and their pipes and beads.

Very observant, nearly. Dirt remnant fortification = a city. 100 remnant fortifications = 100 Nephite cities supported by sustainable food sources, i.e. agriculture. Good job!

Its easier together off an old battlefield. But that is what Sampson did from all over not from the Hill Cumorah, he then sold them to the unsuspecting mormons and telling them what they wanted to hear which was they wanted to buy one from Cumorah oh wait a second he happens to have one here. Its called being gullible.

Am I missing something in this encounter:

"In 1901 Elder Claude Taylor and myself visited the Hill Cumorah and had an interview with Mr. and Mrs. Samson who then owned the Hill and the farm adjoining. Mr. Samson was the brother of Admiral Samson, but he was very prejudiced against the Mormon people. However, we spent some time talking with him."Outside the farmhouse Elder Taylor and myself noted

several bushel baskets filled with arrow heads

and I asked Mrs. Samson what they were. She said they had just begun to plow up the hill Cumorah and around the hill, to plant some crops, and

they turned up these arrow heads

BY THE BASKET FULL

.

"I asked her what she did with them. She replied that she sold them to tourists who passed by. I inquired the price of them, and she replied, 'Twenty-five cents.' I purchased two and when I returned home I gave one to President Joseph F. Smith. The other one I have kept and it is still in my possession.

"This seems good evidence of the wars which have been fought around this historical hill." (J. M. Sjodahl,

An Introduction to the Study of the Book of Mormon

, pp.7-

Lastly, the lack of remnant dirt fortifications dating to BoM times in Cumorah is a plus for Palmyra - a requirement that must be met for a model:

1. Hundreds of remnant dirt fortifications.

2. None in Cumorah.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

That's wonderful. Now, where are there HUNDREDS of remnant dirt fortifications described in the Book of Mormon?

Dirt fortifications. If you know where to look, theres a few of them.

I'd like to know some of the things Anijen is questioning you on. Or perhaps, to counteract my arguments, instead of just dismissing them.

Because in the Great Lakes Region, there is no evidence of any writing system. Nor multiple cultures with influences from an original culture that had spread across the land. Battles fought at a certain time of the year that coincides with the dry season as found in Mesoamerica. Cultural practices among the Lamanites that mirror that shown among the Mesoamerican tribes.

Care to address those concerns?

[againandagain]

Dirt fortifications. If you know where to look, theres a few of them.

I'd like to know some of the things Anijen is questioning you on. Or perhaps, to counteract my arguments, instead of just dismissing them.

Because in the Great Lakes Region, there is no evidence of any writing system. Nor multiple cultures with influences from an original culture that had spread across the land. Battles fought at a certain time of the year that coincides with the dry season as found in Mesoamerica. Cultural practices among the Lamanites that mirror that shown among the Mesoamerican tribes.

Care to address those concerns?

In the hierarchy of evidences, surely you admit nothing is greater than a multitude of dirt fortifications as described in the Book of Mormon? Let's consider the evidences anijen types demand:

1. Writing system. The Nephites were destroyed, whose writing system is being required?? Who says there was no writing system in North America?

2. Culture. Nephites were destroyed. Whose culture is being required?

3. What about those torrential rains, flash floods, and typhoons in Mesoamerica? Dirt forts would not work.

4. Seasons. Does it hail in Mesoamerica? Would her inhabitants recognize Nephi's use of the word "snow"?

5. Land promises. Is the nation in the purported lands supporters of Israel? Is it greater than all nations on earth? Etc.

6. Land prophecies. Do white Gentiles own the purported lands? Are they the larger ethnic group? Etc.

7. Did the indigenous peoples jointly found a government with those white Gentiles?

The reluctance by Anijen and others to give land prophecies any weight at all is odd, no?

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

In the hierarchy of evidences, surely you admit nothing is greater than a multitude of dirt fortifications as described in the Book of Mormon? Let's consider the evidences anijen types demand:

1. Writing system. The Nephites were destroyed, whose writing system is being required?? Who says there was no writing system in North America?

2. Culture. Nephites were destroyed. Whose culture is being required?

3. What about those torrential rains, flash floods, and typhoons in Mesoamerica? Dirt forts would not work.

4. Seasons. Does it hail in Mesoamerica? Would her inhabitants recognize Nephi's use of the word "snow"?

5. Land promises. Is the nation in the purported lands supporters of Israel? Is it greater than all nations on earth? Etc.

6. Land prophecies. Do white Gentiles own the purported lands? Are they the larger ethnic group? Etc.

7. Did the indigenous peoples jointly found a government with those white Gentiles?

The reluctance by Anijen and others to give land prophecies any weight at all is odd, no?

1. All of the evidence points to a complete lack of a writing system in North America. Nephites taught the Lamanites how to write and engage in trade in the Book of Helaman. Evidence for this writing system is indeed seen in Mesoamerica.

2. I specifically referred to the Lamanite culture for that reason, as well as the Jaredite culture that preceded it. There was quite a bit of Olmec influence in later cultures in the Book of Mormon. Not so much for the Hopewells. Even the Lamanites would have had stories to tell, write, or paint about, as is evidenced in several ruins in Mesoamerica.

3. They would work if put in a strategic position, above the floodwaters. Also, whereas Mesoamerica does have a five month long rainy season, there are seven months out of the year where it doesn't rain hardly at all.

4. On my mission I did indeed encounter hail a few times. And not in the higher elevations, this was borderline tierra caliente/tierra templada, 500 meters of elevation. Snow is mentioned ONCE in the Book of Mormon, by Nephi, who would have known about snow in Jerusalem, given that it has been known to snow there in Jerusalem itself and the hills and mountains that surround it. In Mesoamerica, snow simply does not fall below 3500 meters, unless you have a very rare climatological pattern. An occasional snow might happen as low as 2000-3000 meters in the dry season, but is extremely rare (as in multiple decades and sometimes centuries between events).

5. They are quickly becoming a very powerful nation. Mexico is now the number 11 economy in the world, projected to become among the top 5 by 2050. If you got rid of the corruption of the government there, Mexico could very easily with just its resources stand toe to toe with the USA.

6. It might surprise you this fact, but those of pure Spanish descent are indeed just as white as many Americans. And until the Mexican Revolution they did indeed own nearly all the land. Even after the Revolution, they continue holding huge tracts of land.

7. Could you kindly show me an example of how that happened? The founders of the American Republic were of pure European stock. The founders of several Latin American countries were a mixture of European and indigenous stock.

[againandagain]

1. All of the evidence points to a complete lack of a writing system in North America. Nephites taught the Lamanites how to write and engage in trade in the Book of Helaman. Evidence for this writing system is indeed seen in Mesoamerica.

For the writing "requirement" to have relevance (if you agree its weight is significant in the first place), it must be Book of Mormon related, i.e. verified Lamanite or Nephite. Mesoamerica has writing, it's just not BoM, thus fails the "written language" "requirement." Sorry!

2. I specifically referred to the Lamanite culture for that reason, as well as the Jaredite culture that preceded it. There was quite a bit of Olmec influence in later cultures in the Book of Mormon. Not so much for the Hopewells. Even the Lamanites would have had stories to tell, write, or paint about, as is evidenced in several ruins in Mesoamerica.

Ridiculous as ignoring DNA. Why? Because people migrate, integrate, and get killed off. Instead of focusing on moving targets why not first address the non-moving ones. Would you trade a culture hit for a 100 dirt fortification hit? Why ask, because a single archaeological find can alter the ENTIRE field of archaeology and anthropology, that's why!

3. They would work if put in a strategic position, above the floodwaters. Also, whereas Mesoamerica does have a five month long rainy season, there are seven months out of the year where it doesn't rain hardly at all.

The rainy season would decimate dirt fortification within hours and you know that, but will you accept that fact? It says that such dirt fortifications "stayed."

4. On my mission I did indeed encounter hail a few times. And not in the higher elevations, this was borderline tierra caliente/tierra templada, 500 meters of elevation. Snow is mentioned ONCE in the Book of Mormon, by Nephi, who would have known about snow in Jerusalem, given that it has been known to snow there in Jerusalem itself and the hills and mountains that surround it. In Mesoamerica, snow simply does not fall below 3500 meters, unless you have a very rare climatological pattern. An occasional snow might happen as low as 2000-3000 meters in the dry season, but is extremely rare (as in multiple decades and sometimes centuries between events).

The point was, Nephi wrote for the understanding of future generations. The "snow" reference makes sense to people in North America.

5. They are quickly becoming a very powerful nation. Mexico is now the number 11 economy in the world, projected to become among the top 5 by 2050. If you got rid of the corruption of the government there, Mexico could very easily with just its resources stand toe to toe with the USA.

Ever watch the show "Border Wars?" You're right, it's about governments, and for ANYONE to fight via Book of Mormon geography models against the government of the United States and its constitution has serious cognitive dissonance filtering at work.

6. It might surprise you this fact, but those of pure Spanish descent are indeed just as white as many Americans. And until the Mexican Revolution they did indeed own nearly all the land. Even after the Revolution, they continue holding huge tracts of land.

What a waste to have this discussion. You ignore the the totality of land promises and land prophecies and pit that non-sense against colonial history? The Gentiles would "buy" BoM lands, and they would NEVER loose them, i.e. it's an inheritance. Likewise, the will be larger in numbers. And on and on the prophecies go. You served your mission down there, your bias is noted.

7. Could you kindly show me an example of how that happened? The founders of the American Republic were of pure European stock. The founders of several Latin American countries were a mixture of European and indigenous stock.

You have some homework. But if you won't respect the massive requirement of hundreds of remnant dirt fortifications, you'll never investigate early colonial history.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

For the writing "requirement" to have relevance (if you agree its weight is significant in the first place), it must be Book of Mormon related, i.e. verified Lamanite or Nephite. Mesoamerica has writing, it's just not BoM, thus fails the "written language" "requirement." Sorry!

Not as sorry as the ZERO evidence of ANY written languages in North America. Any investigative experience would show that Mesoamerica has several written languages, and you could make an argument for the Andean Quipus being a form of written communication. And this was shown AFTER the Spaniards ran roughshod over the region and tried to destroy everything, and yet, they could not. The Great Lakes Region abounds for its lack of evidence of ANY writing system or even anything resembling what could be written communication.

Ridiculous as ignoring DNA. Why? Because people migrate, integrate, and get killed off. Instead of focusing on moving targets why not first address the non-moving ones. Would you trade a culture hit for a 100 dirt fortification hit? Why ask, because a single archaeological find can alter the ENTIRE field of archaeology and anthropology, that's why!

Thats like asking, would I trade a tree for a single leaf. A specific hit like what you mention here could be part of a larger generalized hit later on. If you are looking for a dirt fortification in Mesoamerica, the ruins of Be K'an might be able to help you out, as well as Tikal. There are other zones that used this type of defences that you are referring to, such as the ruins of Edzna, fairly close to Be K'an.

The rainy season would decimate dirt fortification within hours and you know that, but will you accept that fact? It says that such dirt fortifications "stayed."

Not if the dirt fortifications surrounded cities, such as the instance in Be K'an, where they survive to this day and the fortifications thereof are timed back to 150-450 AD.

The point was, Nephi wrote for the understanding of future generations. The "snow" reference makes sense to people in North America.

I disagree. None of the prophets that lived on the land after Nephi ever make any references to snow or even markers indicating cold days. In fact, the contrary is true. People fainted on the battlefield due to the heat of the day, it is written. Which makes a lot of sense for someone familiar with Mesoamerican climate because in the tierra caliente temperatures are regularly above 100 degrees from mid March to when the rainy season starts in mid June. Not a dry heat mind you, these are very humid places down there.

Ever watch the show "Border Wars?" You're right, it's about governments, and for ANYONE to fight via Book of Mormon geography models against the government of the United States and its constitution has serious cognitive dissonance filtering at work.

Sounds like someone's frustrated here. That by no means was an attack on the United States. Rather, I am kind of going along President Kimball's prophecies to the Lamanites, which are coming to pass even in these days as Latin America is finally starting to assert itself on the world stage, especially Brasil, Mexico, and to a certain degree Chile.

What a waste to have this discussion. You ignore the the totality of land promises and land prophecies and pit that non-sense against colonial history? The Gentiles would "buy" BoM lands, and they would NEVER loose them, i.e. it's an inheritance. Likewise, the will be larger in numbers. And on and on the prophecies go. You served your mission down there, your bias is noted.

I am not aware of any indigenous people coming up and representing the colonial forms of government, albeit there were a few colonists such as William Penn that were friendlier to the natives than were other colonists. Once again, instead of showing generalizations that you know about the colonial history that I am unaware of, be the honest man and share me your links. In the end we'll see who has the more open mind.

You have some homework. But if you won't respect the massive requirement of hundreds of remnant dirt fortifications, you'll never investigate early colonial history.

See last two sentences above.

[againandagain]

Not as sorry as the ZERO evidence of ANY written languages in North America....

The plates are the evidence. Do you have SINGLE sentence pertaining to the Book of Mormon from the language(s) you think cover a multitude of errors on whatever lands you imagine BoM lands to be? No. That's +1 for North America. o_o

If you are looking for a dirt fortification in Mesoamerica, the ruins of Be K'an might be able to help you out, as well as Tikal. There are other zones that used this type of defences that you are referring to, such as the ruins of Edzna, fairly close to Be K'an.

Wrong. They must have a ditch on the outside of the dirt wall, and the dirt wall must contain remnants of wood timbers in and on top of them. And they must be in the hundreds, including whatever cities you postulate are BoM cities. If not, then they're not, it's as simple as that.

Nephi..references...snow...even markers indicating cold days. In fact, the contrary is true. People fainted on the battlefield due to the heat of the day

Ignoring? Who did Nephite write to the understanding of? Future readers receiving the record on ancient BoM land. Secondly, they had a cold/flu season because of "the climate" "some seasons of the year." The heat of the day reference is pathetic as every place in North America has hot days, and America Indians hardly wore anything. Why are earthquakes, volcanoes, typhoons, hurricanes, torrential rains, flash floods or mud slides not cited EVER destroying fortifications, towns, or being used to impede the enemy?

Latin America is finally starting to assert itself on the world stage, especially Brasil, Mexico, and to a certain degree Chile.

Wow...since the Times of the Gentiles are over, they're a few decades late, and they still have not even approached the glory of America, nor ever will they - sorry. Oh, church member retention numbers don't reflect well either.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

The plates are the evidence. Do you have SINGLE sentence pertaining to the Book of Mormon from the language(s) you think cover a multitude of errors on whatever lands you imagine BoM lands to be? No. That's +1 for North America. o_o

And it came to pass...in Mayan, only one glyph is needed. Such glyph has been found in the Temple of the Inscriptions at Palenque. There are a few others as well.

Wrong. They must have a ditch on the outside of the dirt wall, and the dirt wall must contain remnants of wood timbers in and on top of them. And they must be in the hundreds, including whatever cities you postulate are BoM cities. If not, then they're not, it's as simple as that.

Be K'an matches your description exactly. I don't see what your point is. You are dismissing valid points as if they didn't exist.

Ignoring? Who did Nephite write to the understanding of? Future readers receiving the record on ancient BoM land. Secondly, they had a cold/flu season because of "the climate" "some seasons of the year." The heat of the day reference is pathetic as every place in North America has hot days, and America Indians hardly wore anything. Why are earthquakes, volcanoes, typhoons, hurricanes, torrential rains, flash floods or mud slides not cited EVER destroying fortifications, towns, or being used to impede the enemy?

Who did Jacob, Alma, Mosiah, and the others write to who did NOT mention snow or markers for cold days, but mentioned hot days and warmth?

People suffer from changes of climate all the time, even if they would appear minute to us North Americans. I saw people get sick during the 'winter' months where the temperature still exceeded 80 degrees more often than not in southern Mexico. You act like its impossible, but it is not.

Earthquakes are mentioned as having destroyed several cities, and the destruction seen in 3 Nephi 8-10 is consistent with volcanic activity. The Great Lakes region is geologically stable and has very few quakes, and zero volcanic activity. The Mesoamerican and Andean regions are extremely unstable geologically and are prone to earthquakes and volcanos.

One look at the months of the wars in the Book of Mormon is also rather telling. They fought in certain times of the year, times that would be consistent with the Mesoamerican dry season--wintertime and early spring in North America, hardly the time to be fighting battles.

Wow...since the Times of the Gentiles are over, they're a few decades late, and they still have not even approached the glory of America, nor ever will they - sorry. Oh, church member retention numbers don't reflect well either.

Don't be too proud young one. It would be great to expand your horizons. The prophets have said otherwise concerning the fate of the lands of the Lamanites (they will blossom as the rose).

Conversely, the Gentiles, if they do not repent are to be destroyed. By who? The Lamanites.

Seeing what's going on in the world currently, America faces EXTREMELY tough times ahead. They will get out of it and succeed, but the makeup of the country will be transformed quite a bit, and the Lamanites will have a hand in it.

[Brant Gardner]

Am I missing something in this encounter:

Yes. You clearly miss the problems of dealing with texts dealing with archaeological artifacts that come both from outside the archaeological profession and long prior to the time it was developed as a profession. There are any number of "interesting" stories that come from the late 1800s, including stories of very large skeletons that were found. None of those can be corroborated by any modern archaeologist. If you attempt to use the pre-scientific evidence, you must do so in conjunction with the better work done more recently, or else you will swallow some whoppers. The kind of evidence you have cited for the finding of lots of arrowheads is notoriously imprecise (at best). Archaeological surveys have been made around Cumorah. Even with the amount of time that has passed with people picking up the surface remnants, archaeology would show some indication of what happened that would have led to those conditions. Archaeology faces that problem everywhere. They are still able to uncover much information about the past. In the case of Cumorah, there is no evidence supporting those assertions that there was a massive battle in the area.

[againandagain]

And it came to pass...in Mayan, only one glyph is needed. Such glyph has been found in the Temple of the Inscriptions at Palenque. There are a few others as well.

You may infer a connection, but with so much writing available you must verify history. Is there more to the "And it came to pass"?

Be K'an matches your description exactly. I don't see what your point is. You are dismissing valid points as if they didn't exist.

Very well, where's the link to a picture? And, I'll need a couple dozen more, to keep it simple. Also, state which BoM city it was. Thanks!

Earthquakes are mentioned as having destroyed several cities, and the destruction seen in 3 Nephi 8-10 is consistent with volcanic activity.

Aside from singular, divinely orchestrated accounts (which you put to luck), where are the references to earthquakes, typhoons, floods, mud slides, etc. happening on a regular basis?

One look at the months of the wars in the Book of Mormon is also rather telling. They fought in certain times of the year, times that would be consistent with the Mesoamerican dry season--wintertime and early spring in North America, hardly the time to be fighting battles.

It's bad science to use present weather patterns to measure ancient ones.

Don't be too proud young one. It would be great to expand your horizons. The prophets have said otherwise concerning the fate of the lands of the Lamanites (they will blossom as the rose).

Obviously your placement of "Lamanites" in fulfilled prophecies, in Mexico, is off by hundreds of years! But to accept that, you must accept the fact that they haven't done a single thing to support Israel.

[Maya]

If the hartland modell would be true it would mean that Nephis boat came from east... I doubt they walked all the way from California... or flew over in to the inlakes. So where had they wandered from Jerusalem... east...east....east....east? Then they tok ships to north...why would it not be safer to walk to the other side of the lakes than to take boats? Why would they never tell that you could walk to the lands in the north an other way too not just by the narrow neck og land? Where are the northern civilizations or remines there of?

IMHO Heartland modell is all to patriotic modell... even so, that it will drive members and investigators away from church rather than in it.. everywher else than prehaps in USA. Sorry but "Americans" dont have such a good reputation in teh world any more, it would make the church look even more "American" to people who dont put the testimony first.

I dont have Google Earth on this laptop, so I can not provide a picturemap, but I been there (Google) looking at these mountains and also Cerro Bernal. I think Ramah/Siim can easily be one of the mountaqins postet by Larry, but I go for Cerro Bernal. On top of Cerro Bernal there even is a clean water fountain and fruit trees ... according to someone who has climbed on top and you sure can see far from the top. The sea in the east, there are many rivers and lakes and fountains around. It is surrounded by a thick forest with snakes. Any special unsuitable things from the BoM about that?

http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/6974419.jpg

Ops this jumped at me .. so here the map: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/6974419 Clikc - some 5 times and it will be seen on the left hand

[againandagain]

I think Ramah/Siim can easily be one of the mountaqins postet by Larry, but I go for Cerro Bernal. On top of Cerro Bernal there even is a clean water fountain and fruit trees ... according to someone who has climbed on top and you sure can see far from the top. The sea in the east, there are many rivers and lakes and fountains around. It is surrounded by a thick forest with snakes. Any special unsuitable things from the BoM about that?

Where is Ripliancum?

[Maya]

Right there where it has always been... I hope... it has not moved has it? Need to check that... but it is NOT by the big lakes in USA...

I just red it in the Ether.. I think it suits well to Cerro Bernal... Ripliacum is the sea to the east from Kumora (Cerro Bernal) on their way south they even go by the Mountains Larry put a picture here on. I dont see a problem, but it does not mean I am right.... but I think so.

[Robert F. Smith]

CUMORAH, HILL. See also Book of Mormon; Moroni, Son of Mormon; Smith, Joseph, Jr.

A small hill located in western New York, United States of America. Here an ancient prophet named Moroni hid the gold plates containing some of the records of the Nephite and Jaredite nations. Joseph Smith was directed to this hill in 1827 by the resurrected Moroni to get these plates and translate a portion of them. This translation is the Book of Mormon.

Nephites gathered at Cumorah, Morm. 6:2

[Rob Osborn]

For those who believe that the last great battles of the BoM were in the state of New York-

https://www.digitalegend.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=30

Here is a summary of what is described-

E.G. Squier was among the first to explore and survey the ancient "earthworks" of Western New York. Such defensive walled enclosures dotted the countryside by the hundreds in the early 1800's, but nearly all of these earthworks have nearly all been wiped out by farming and urbanization.

Squier documented and illustrated in beautiful woodcut reproductions close to 100 of these walled enclosures which belong to a race of people whom he estimates to have last inhabited the region well before Columbus over a 1000 years ago.

Who were these people and what fearsome enemy caused them to build these hundreds of protective enclosures as the last bastion of defense which obviously failed to accomplish its desired objective?

http://www.archive.org/stream/antiquitiesofsta00squirich#page/n7/mode/2up

[againandagain]

For those who believe that the last great battles of the BoM were in the state of New York-

Oh Rob, now you spoiled all the fun! To add salt to the wound, here's one of the Nephite flint mines:

1. It's on the National Register.

2. It wasn't discovered until 1921! [You mean we haven't found everything to be found in Brant's back yard?? ]

3. "In the pits were hundreds of stone maul heads and hammers. The dumps were full of them. More than a thousand were picked up from the quarries and the investigators then ceased to collect them because of their numbers." [Who'd a thought?? More than a thousand workers in one spot! Wow!!]

4. "Mr. Ray, who worked on these sites, procured for us more than 1500 finished blades of various sizes." [Those were like the crumbs compared to the total numbers.]

5. "This locality is the first untouched aboriginal quarry site in the State examined by the Museum and seems to be unique. It must have been worked for several centuries and two or three hundred workers must have been continuously engaged in the excavating and chipping." [You don't say.]

[New State Museum Bulletin, Nos. 239-240, November-December 1920, pp. 46-47]

[Anijen]

For those who believe that the last great battles of the BoM were in the state of New York-

https://www.digitalegend.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=30

Here is a summary of what is described-

http://www.archive.org/stream/antiquitiesofsta00squirich#page/n7/mode/2up

Thank you for this link. Very informative.

[againandagain]

Yes, that is good enough to prove you wrong in your by-gosh and by-golly assumptions...

Christensen, you're embarrassing yourself. The only thing anyone needs to know is whether Joseph believed the final battle occurred near Palmyra. Did he? Yes, here it is in black and white:

LATTER DAY SAINTS' MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE, Volume I. No. 1. KIRTLAND, OHIO, OCTOBER, 1834, p. 157-158

How does one account for distance in light of the following...blah...blah...and more blah

Can you answer where the numerous DIRT AND WOOD FORTIFIED CITIES ARE down there??? There are none.

Readers listen up, Nephite cities were fortified by LARGE dirt walls interspersed with timber and topped with timber, with DITCHES; LARGE, DEEP DITCHES ON THE OUTSIDE OF THEIR FORTS.

YOUR MODEL BETTER HAVE HUNDREDS OF THESE THINGS DOCUMENTED AND STANDING. If not, it's not Book of Mormon land, sorry.

[poulsenll]

The discussion, although interesting, has wandered far from the original OP.

The question asked was

Do the hills shown in the picture fit the description of Cumorah/Ramah found in the Book of Mormon? especially the descriptions found in the book of Ether.

It matters not where they are located. However if the shoe fits, wear it. Dont throw it away because it is the wrong color or doesnt go with the outfit I am presently wearing.

Patriotism is great, however, to let it override the testimonies of eye witnesses who were prophets called by God to write these things and then hide them up for our benifit, is to put personal pride as a more important determinative than respect for God and His Prophets. Even though there may be remains of cultures in the United States that fit descriptions in the Book of Mormon, it is the cumulative explanation of all the data about geography in the text that must be accomodated in any theory of where the Book of Mormon culture was located. Sorenson and Joseph & Blake Allen are the only ones that I know of to date who have made such an effort. Much of the Allen's work has been summarized on the BMAF website and should be required reading for anyone that desires to opine about Book of Mormon locations.

So let us put aside the argument of whether there is more than one Cumorah and examine the text of the Book of Mormon comparing it to the location depicted in the OP.