The Origin of the Temple Garment

[mfbukowski]

Coptic Orthodox Christians have a baptismal service and annointing in which the body is first washed and then different parts of the body are annointed.

Many believe that the Coptic Orthodox church contains may rites which go back to the very origins of Christianity. I think that should start becoming obvious as we see more and more similar symbols coming from the same area all around two thousand years old.

Furthermore, after the Baptism, the child is clothed in white garments which represent purity and have some references to the Garden of Eden, covering his nakedness with the Grace of God.

Wearing the new white garments after baptism has much significance:

[mfbukowski]

Oh yes, and I forgot to mention that the habits of Catholic nuns and priests, depending on the order, often include a rope worn around the waist which has three knots in it.

[mfbukowski]

I would say that Joseph was taught about the garment, and he passed the teaching on to us.

I don't think "Joseph Smith came up with this idea."

I think you are right!

[Calm]

Thomas Alexander has some info on changes in temple clothing over the years in his Mormonism in Transition book (highly recommended by me if anyone is interested).

When they were looking into going to a shorter length garment, there was investigation into what actually was revealed and what wasn't and IIRC, it was discovered that ties were used at the wrists and ankles not because of symbolic significance, but because of lack of buttons. I am not sure if the ties being discussed above are the same, but if so, Bro. Alexander's documentation was pretty thorough so I would trust his assessment most myself. Now they may have been given symbolic meaning after the initial construction...I am not insisting that wasn't possible.

[mfbukowski]

Thomas Alexander has some info on changes in temple clothing over the years in his Mormonism in Transition book (highly recommended by me if anyone is interested).

When they were looking into going to a shorter length garment, there was investigation into what actually was revealed and what wasn't and IIRC, it was discovered that ties were used at the wrists and ankles not because of symbolic significance, but because of lack of buttons. I am not sure if the ties being discussed above are the same, but if so, Bro. Alexander's documentation was pretty thorough so I would trust his assessment most myself. Now they may have been given symbolic meaning after the initial construction...I am not insisting that wasn't possible.

Before velcro and all, as I recall, in the temple ceremony itself there were other things tied with bows, in two sections of the ceremony, three ties at the same time.

It is my opinion that the bow itself has symbolic significance. I am not saying it necessarily had significance at the wrists and ankles, but we have seen historically that in other faiths, knots made around the waist and at the shoulder may have some significance.

[thatjimguy]

Masons have been linked to the Knights Templar. They had special undergarments as well.

They never washed them. (How easy do you think it was to live the law of Chastity with that stipulation?) I don't think they ever took them off either. (which may lead as to why so many think LDS never do anything without them.)

So somehow, it probally just migrated from Templars to Masons to Mormons.

[Ariarates]

What about Quinn's explanation that the garment is a sort of amulet that protects the person wearing it? Seems like an explanation that is very close to the garment's original and current meaning and sounds logical given Joseph Smith's early background in magic.

Coptic, Zoroastran and Egyptian connections are all very nice but appear rather ex post facto and far-fetched to me.

[Maidservant]

What I wanted to say from the very first reading of the OP, and then riffing from this and Bro. Christensen I believe, and really in line with what most have had to say:

It is this: our bodies and our mortal earth life IS the garment that we are putting on.

The temple walk is a sign or symbol of the reality.

The process was a transformation from the earthly to heavenly, from mortality to divinity. The temple is a ritualized heavenly ascent or deification.

[mfbukowski]

What about Quinn's explanation that the garment is a sort of amulet that protects the person wearing it? Seems like an explanation that is very close to the garment's original and current meaning and sounds logical given Joseph Smith's early background in magic.

Coptic, Zoroastran and Egyptian connections are all very nice but appear rather ex post facto and far-fetched to me.

It is fairly obvious it could be seen as an "amulet" by someone like Quinn.

The point of that exercise was to show, assuming one believes that this is actually the restored church of Jesus Christ, that there is a likely "ancestor" of the garment which dates to ancient times.

[consiglieri]

sig, beware of the UMW. Should I send flowers or just make a contribution to a charity in your name?

I was speaking tongue-in-cheek, but you are right, of course.

The UMW are notorious for their lack of a sense of humor about these things.

A modest charitable contribution will do just fine . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Ariarates]

It is fairly obvious it could be seen as an "amulet" by someone like Quinn.

I don't know that it's necessary to poison the well. Just about anybody would think "amulet" when you describe something symbolic you wear to protect you from evil. Kinda makes the OP's "magic Mormon underwear" rather poignant, doesn't it?

The point of that exercise was to show, assuming one believes that this is actually the restored church of Jesus Christ, that there is a likely "ancestor" of the garment which dates to ancient times.

Was it? I thought the OP wanted to know where Joseph Smith came up with the idea, whether it is something he would have picked up from other sources, or a Mormon original. The garment as an amulet to protect you from evil is the most logical explanation given its function (to protect you from evil - duh) and Joseph Smith's background and active involvement in magic. Fits the bill perfectly without having to invent anything new.

[mfbukowski]

I don't know that it's necessary to poison the well. Just about anybody would think "amulet" when you describe something symbolic you wear to protect you from evil. Kinda makes the OP's "magic Mormon underwear" rather poignant, doesn't it?

Was it? I thought the OP wanted to know where Joseph Smith came up with the idea, whether it is something he would have picked up from other sources, or a Mormon original. The garment as an amulet to protect you from evil is the most logical explanation given its function (to protect you from evil - duh) and Joseph Smith's background and active involvement in magic. Fits the bill perfectly without having to invent anything new.

The "amulet from evil" part is the totally obvious part.

Did you even read the other quotes I put up? What about all the other similarities between garments and the ancient parallels which were raised?

Adam in the garden being found naked? What does that have to do with an "amulet"?? Marks and their locations? Symbolic meanings of marks being paralleled in ancient sources? Did you read the Coptic material? Pretty clearly not- none of it has to do with "protecting from evil"

[volgadon]

I think I'll throw in a rather unknown bit of trivia. The cave dwellers of the Hebron hills at least until the 1980s wore a white undergarment. They have no idea why, but the area was heavily Christian before the Muslim conquest.

[Ariarates]

Did you even read the other quotes I put up? What about all the other similarities between garments and the ancient parallels which were raised?

Even better, the quotes you put up are the very reason for my first post in this thread. My explanation in simple and elegant (and based on relevant, known facts), while yours are nothing but unrelated and far-fetched speculations.

So, in your opinion, did "old Joe Smith get around knowing all these things" about Zoroastrian Parsis and Coptic Orthodox Christians? If not, aren't you just saying that the origin of the LDS garment is revelation, or else what is the meaning of the ancient parallels you so freely draw?

[mfbukowski]

Even better, the quotes you put up are the very reason for my first post in this thread. My explanation in simple and elegant (and based on relevant, known facts), while yours are nothing but unrelated and far-fetched speculations.

Lol. I love it. Far fetched speculations about what?? All I did was draw parallels. And you didn't even offer an explanation- all you said is that Quinn said it was amulet against evil. It is explicitly said to be a protective object, so calling it an "amulet" really isn't even an insight. It is just a rather perjorative synonym for what it is stated to be.

So, in your opinion, did "old Joe Smith get around knowing all these things" about Zoroastrian Parsis and Coptic Orthodox Christians? If not, aren't you just saying that the origin of the LDS garment is revelation, or else what is the meaning of the ancient parallels you so freely draw?

You really think I was saying that Joe Smith knew these things intellectually? Sorry- that is called "sarcasm". Of course he didn't know it intellectually- that is the entire point!

I know this is hard for you to understand apparently but I actually believe that Joseph actually restored by revelation ancient practices the only evidence of which we have are those I cited which are, I believe in their "apostate" form.

I don't know what is so hard to understand about that. Do you think the post about the Egyptian burial clothing was posted as evidence of Joseph's ability to research archaeology?

The entire point for the thread as I understand it, is to point to evidences for the origin of temple garments, which I believe I have shown to be of ancient origin and this could not have been intellectually known to Joseph, and so he must have restored them by revelation.

You really did not understand that was what I was saying?

I will have to learn to write better for those who are much more literally minded than I am I suppose and spell everything out very clearly.

"This thing will protect you from evil"

"Oh- it's an "amulet"?

Not much of an insight. Yes, that's what we call things like that if we want to remove any notion of the sacred. In that context, I suppose the St Christopher medal is an "amulet" too for Catholics.

[Hick Preacher]

Side note-

On the day Adam covered his naked body for the first time, he beheld in clothing a mark of human dignity, and offered God a thanksgiving of incense (Book of Jubilees, iii. 22). The garments made by God were not of skin, but of light (Gen. R. xx.), and robes of glory were made of the serpent's skin (Targ. Yer. Gen. iii. 21).

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=758&letter=A&search=adam#1860

I have heard that certain old African Church traditions provide new garments to newly baptized members.

The Book of Jasher also mentions the skins of Adam being acquired by Nimrod. It is written that these skins of Adam gave Nimrod special powers and protection.

As I recall certain traditions indicate that Adam's clothes were serpent skins, which provided protection from meat eating beasts.

[mfbukowski]

Side note-

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=758&letter=A&search=adam#1860

I have heard that certain old African Church traditions provide new garments to newly baptized members.

The Book of Jasher also mentions the skins of Adam being acquired by Nimrod. It is written that these skins of Adam gave Nimrod special powers and protection.

As I recall certain traditions indicate that Adam's clothes were serpent skins, which provided protection from meat eating beasts.

Interesting stuff! Thanks!

[cinepro]

So when was the last time anyone heard a claim about the Temple garments providing actual physical protection from physical threats (like bullets, fire, impact blows, etc.)?

I heard several stories about such things growing up, but it's been years since I've heard anyone bring it up. Are these stories falling out of fashion?

[TAO]

So when was the last time anyone heard a claim about the Temple garments providing actual physical protection from physical threats (like bullets, fire, impact blows, etc.)?

I heard several stories about such things growing up, but it's been years since I've heard anyone bring it up. Are these stories falling out of fashion?

No, I have a friend whose Grandparent's clothes caught fire while he was working in a factory... all burnt... 'cept for these. These clothes probably made his burns tons less serious than they were.

Also have heard a story about a person being saved when they fell on top of a running motor in a boat by the clothes in some way... don't remember...

[tana]

So when was the last time anyone heard a claim about the Temple garments providing actual physical protection from physical threats (like bullets, fire, impact blows, etc.)?

I heard several stories about such things growing up, but it's been years since I've heard anyone bring it up. Are these stories falling out of fashion?

One day while riding our ponies (bicycles) down the street, playing catch with a tennis ball with my missionary companion. I made a valiant try for an overthrow, just as my front wheel decided to turn left. After a few mins of doing the trained seal act on the pavement, trying to breathe..... and an overnight stay in the ER, I realized I had about three sq. feet of membrane missing from my garments....and my vest....and my suit jacket ...and my....shoulder. Dang!

In the overall scheme of things does this have any bearing?...none whatsoever....just a silly tale.

[Palerider]

"31 He had on a loose robe of most exquisite ^awhiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom. "

He also said, "The angel Moroni

drew aside his robe and showed his marks."

"It was while they were living in Nauvoo that the Prophet came to my mother, who was a seamstress by trade, and told her that he had seen the Angel Moroni with the garments on, and asked her to assist him in cutting out the garments."

Anyone see a discrepancy here...........?

[TAO]

"31 He had on a loose robe of most exquisite ^awhiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom. "

"It was while they were living in Nauvoo that the Prophet came to my mother, who was a seamstress by trade, and told her that he had seen the Angel Moroni with the garments on, and asked her to assist him in cutting out the garments."

Anyone see a discrepancy here...........?

Na, I think where Moroni was there was little need for other clothes, no?

[LeSellers]

Anyone see a discrepancy here.

In order for there to be a discrepancy, you'd have to assume that the two accounts were of the same event. There is no evidence to support that assumption.

Lehi

[Sevenbak]

In order for there to be a discrepancy, you'd have to assume that the two accounts were of the same event. There is no evidence to support that assumption.

Lehi

Right, Joseph would neither be required to or even ready to receive the higher laws represented by the garments when he first visited with Moroni. I believe the garment to be an earthly requirement to help us in mortality, and if Moroni chose to share that revealed truth with Joseph, it was for Joseph's purposes, not necessarily the normal state of Moroni's appearance.

By most counts, Joseph had 21 separate visitations from Moroni over the years.

[Lachoneus]

I believe the garment to be an earthly requirement to help us in mortality, . . ..

Having spent part of my time in the temple yesterday administering the initiatory ordinances, I agree that the garment is meant as a protection until this life is finished.