Mike Reed Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 After dredging back through the mud over there, here's one reference for the conversation I had over at Mormon Coffee 2 weeks or so ago: (I posted as dltayman. This is one of the only two of their blog posts I'd commented in over there - the one before it being the other. I spent a couple days calmly and peacefully responding to nearly everything that Rick and f_melo tossed out at me. Realized it was useless, and left. No regrets. ): I did not make an audio recording of the times such claims were verbally made to me in person, and thus cannot provide mp3s of said conversations to fulfill your CFR that this has been said to me on those personal occasions. Thanks for the reference. I had my doubts that anyone would be ridiculous enough to assert that this passage is presently being hidden by the Church. And I can see how you can infer such from the quote you give--but this specific passage isn't mentioned in the blog, is it?
mfbukowski Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 Yep. Divining Rods were associated with the Rod of Aaron and called sprouts.I am an old guy, and I remember growing up in Western NY in the early 1950's and there were guys who would find a spot for you to dig a well by using divining (dowsing) rods- I remember my dad actually used one of these guys- and we went out into the field where he looked for and found a newly sprouted stick from a sapling in a "Y" shape and whittled off the green ends and then walked around until he found a spot where the stick dipped in his hands- and he said to dig in that spot, and we called the well digger and he found water. But he made the point that the stick had to be a green one- a "sprout".Of course we were a few hundred feet from a creek, so the water table was probably the same over the entire area, but that is a different story!Nack- thanks for the heads up on this site!
Mike Reed Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 I am an old guy, and I remember growing up in Western NY in the early 1950's and there were guys who would find a spot for you to dig a well by using divining (dowsing) rods- I remember my dad actually used one of these guys- and we went out into the field where he looked for and found a newly sprouted stick from a sapling in a "Y" shape and whittled off the green ends and then walked around until he found a spot where the stick dipped in his hands- and he said to dig in that spot, and we called the well digger and he found water.Of course we were a few hundred feet from a creek, so the water table was probably the same over the entire area, but that is a different story!Nack- thanks for the heads up on this site!I was in kentucky a couple months ago, and asked my wife's relative (an elderly man who is in the oil-drilling industry) whether or not he saw someone use a divining rod for locating oil. To my surprise, he said he could find oil with one.
David T Posted October 28, 2010 Author Posted October 28, 2010 Thanks for the reference. I had my doubts that anyone would be ridiculous enough to assert that this passage is presently being hidden by the Church. And I can see how you can infer such from the quote you give--but this specific passage isn't mentioned in the blog, is it?Aw, you had a really nice end to my having provided a reference, and then you went and edited it *sigh* No, Mike, that specific passage is not spelled out in that one conversation I mentioned. Nor did I claim it was in that instance.I said, "Just a couple weeks ago, actually, over at Mormon Coffee (I posted there for 2 days, period.) I was told the Church is hiding their history, and especially the changes in the revelations, and never tell anyone about them."To which you replied, "CFR." - Which was answered by my quote and link. And yes, his comments (as are all over the place there) refer to any and all changes that have been made. Including this one.
mapman Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 And William Clayton's Nauvoo journal . . . and the Council of Fifty notes . . . (it goes on and on).Be patient. They've only begun publishing this series. By the way, William Clayton's journal is here for you to read.
Mike Reed Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 Aw, you had a really nice end to my having me provided a reference, and then you went and edited it *sigh* No, Mike, that specific passage is not spelled out in that one conversation I mentioned. Nor did I claim it was in that instance.Ok. Thanks for the clarification.
David T Posted October 28, 2010 Author Posted October 28, 2010 From here:"When completed, The Joseph Smith Papers will include accurate and unabridged transcripts of all extant Joseph Smith documents to which the editors can gain access."Seeing as my understanding is that they've been given access to everything related in the Church Archives (the publication of Revelation Book 1 itself coming from the First Presidency's vault), the reference to 'which the editors can gain access' refers to documents that may be outside the Church's control. I have seen nothing to make me believe that the Church is doing anything to limit access. CFR for thoughts otherwise.
Mike Reed Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 From here:"When completed, The Joseph Smith Papers will include accurate and unabridged transcripts of all extant Joseph Smith documents to which the editors can gain access."Seeing as my understanding is that they've been given access to everything related in the Church Archives (the publication of Revelation Book 1 itself coming from the First Presidency's vault), the reference to 'which the editors can gain access' refers to documents that may be outside the Church's control. I have seen nothing to make me believe that the Church is doing anything to limit access. CFR for thoughts otherwise.Certainly the Church is making efforts to give access to many of the documents they have in their possession. And I have personally found the Church history library to be very helpful and accommodating. But I get the impression (from older historians I've conversed with) that Camelot hasn't quite returned yet. When and if Camelot returns, hopefully he/it stays for a while, and there isn't an immediate swing back to retrenchment.
Wiki Wonka Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 I was in kentucky a couple months ago, and asked my wife's relative (an elderly man who is in the oil-drilling industry) whether or not he saw someone use a divining rod for locating oil. To my surprise, he said he could find oil with one.My grandfather taught me to use a divining rod when I was a teenager. We were searching for water on a piece of property we owned. He didn't believe that there was any "magic" involved in the process - he just thought that there was some sort of physical reason why it worked. In our case it was a forked branch that we cut from a tree. We ended up digging in a particular spot that the rod indicated, but we didn't go deep enough to find water. Eventually, we had the well dug at another location. I figured that you could pretty much dig anywhere on the property and strike water as long as you went deep enough. But my grandfather (who was also a temple worker) really believed that he could find water with the thing.WW
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 William Clayton's diaries don't fall under the purview of the JSP project as far as I know. As one project member told me: The William Clayton journals, while useful in annotation, do not fall under the category of a Joseph Smith document (not created by him, for him, or under his explicit instruction). Evidently, the Nauvoo diary Clayton wrote under JS's direction is part of the project. Clayton was scribe to one of JS's official journals in Nauvoo they'll be publishing that. Word.
cinepro Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 Including this element the Church is trying so hard to suppress:D&C 8 was given in 1829. The Joseph Smith Papers website has been made available by the Church in 2010.Just so I'm clear, between 1835 (when the change was made?) and 2009, has there been even a single instance of a Church publication (especially anything post-correlation) acknowledging and explaining the change? Were there any ways for LDS members to find out about the change without going to anti-Mormon or critical sources?
JAHS Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 I'm not aware of a "battle" to keep it from being identified as a divining rod. I personally think it was one, but I can't just put my own speculation in the wiki. I think that the original identification of the item as a "sprout" certainly strengthens the case for the item being identified as a divining rod. If someone can suggest a good article which discusses that possibility, then I would be happy to use it and add it as a citation. What we do know from the Joseph Smith Papers is that Sidney changed the wording from "sprout" and "thing of nature" to "rod" and "rod of nature."WWThere are indications that Oliver may have actually possesed a rod or staff, similar to Aaron's, which may have served as a symbol of this "gift of Aaron", which he used like a seer stone, to reveal truths from God; something he could hold in his hand as indicated in D&C 8:8. A notation in Anthon H. Lund's Journal for July 5,1901 states: "in the revelation to Oliver Cowdery in May 1829, Bro. [b. H.] Roberts said that the gift which the Lord says he has in his hand meant a stick which was like Aaron's Rod. It is said Bro. Phineas Young [brother-in-law of Oliver Cowdery and brother of Brigham Young] got it from him [Cowdery] and gave it to President Young who had it with him when he arrived in this [salt Lake] valley and that it was with that stick that he pointed out where the Temple should be built."
cinepro Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 A notation in Anthon H. Lund's Journal for July 5,1901 states: "in the revelation to Oliver Cowdery in May 1829, Bro. [b. H.] Roberts said that the gift which the Lord says he has in his hand meant a stick which was like Aaron's Rod. It is said Bro. Phineas Young [brother-in-law of Oliver Cowdery and brother of Brigham Young] got it from him [Cowdery] and gave it to President Young who had it with him when he arrived in this [salt Lake] valley and that it was with that stick that he pointed out where the Temple should be built."Wait...did he just say Brigham Young designated the SLC Temple location with a dowsing rod?
Mike Reed Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 Wait...did he just say Brigham Young designated the SLC Temple location with a dowsing rod?No. Rod is just a metaphor for priesthood, silly.
Mormon Dude Posted October 29, 2010 Posted October 29, 2010 This may be old news, but the Church History Library is working with Archive.org to publish some of its collections online. I don't really know any of the details, but here is the link to access them: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=churchhistorylibrary.And I think the new papers website is awesome, glad they actually put stuff online like they wanted!
pcarthew Posted October 29, 2010 Posted October 29, 2010 http://beta.josephsmithpapers.org/homeSo much for the Church hiding everything, or making it so only the few members who are able to plop down the big bucks are able to see these deep dark documents that reveal the Church's TRUE deceptive history There's some interim content to show how it will be formatted, such as D&C 76: The Vision here.Very cool!
Fifth Columnist Posted October 29, 2010 Posted October 29, 2010 William Clayton's diaries don't fall under the purview of the JSP project as far as I know. As one project member told me: Evidently, the Nauvoo diary Clayton wrote under JS's direction is part of the project. Clayton was scribe to one of JS's official journals in Nauvoo they'll be publishing that. Word.My understanding is that all of Clayton's diaries have been published except the one he kept in Nauvoo that documented the more embarrassing aspects of JS's polygamy and domestic relationship with Emma. This one is kept under lock and key for obvious reasons (although a bunch of it leaked out already). Will this journal be published as part of the JS papers? It seems to be very relevant to JS.
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 29, 2010 Posted October 29, 2010 My understanding is that all of Clayton's diaries have been published except the one he kept in Nauvoo that documented the more embarrassing aspects of JS's polygamy and domestic relationship with Emma. This one is kept under lock and key for obvious reasons (although a bunch of it leaked out already). Will this journal be published as part of the JS papers? It seems to be very relevant to JS.I think your understanding needs a specific reference. And needs to check out the stated purview of the JSPP.
David T Posted October 29, 2010 Author Posted October 29, 2010 Under Editorial Method:The goal of the Joseph Smith Papers Project is to present verbatim transcripts of Joseph Smith
LifeOnaPlate Posted October 29, 2010 Posted October 29, 2010 Under Editorial Method:The project isn't for papers about Joseph. It is about Joseph's papers.Well now you gone and did all his homework for him. a fifth columnist will never learn to learn that way.
Fifth Columnist Posted October 29, 2010 Posted October 29, 2010 I think your understanding needs a specific reference. And needs to check out the stated purview of the JSPP.Here you go. http://goo.gl/HEMz
ttribe Posted October 29, 2010 Posted October 29, 2010 My understanding is that all of Clayton's diaries have been published except the one he kept in Nauvoo that documented the more embarrassing aspects of JS's polygamy and domestic relationship with Emma. This one is kept under lock and key for obvious reasons (although a bunch of it leaked out already). Will this journal be published as part of the JS papers? It seems to be very relevant to JS.*sigh* Unless it was written BY Joseph Smith, it's not in the JSP.
Fifth Columnist Posted October 29, 2010 Posted October 29, 2010 The project isn't for papers about Joseph. It is about Joseph's papers.Clayton produced a lot of papers for Joseph Smith. Maybe his journal isn't considered one of those (although it was relied on extensively to create the History of the Church) so that it is outside the scope of the project. Either way, the Church will be justifiably accused of hiding its history until it publishes materials such as Clayton's Nauvoo journal.
Fifth Columnist Posted October 29, 2010 Posted October 29, 2010 *sigh* Unless it was written BY Joseph Smith, it's not in the JSP.*double sigh* Very few of the papers in the collection were actually written BY Joseph Smith. I think you need to check your facts (nackhadlow quoted what you need to know).
ttribe Posted October 29, 2010 Posted October 29, 2010 *double sigh* Very few of the papers in the collection were actually written BY Joseph Smith. I think you need to check your facts (nackhadlow quoted what you need to know).I'm well aware of the editorial method on this. My comment was reflective of the spirit of that and was meant to be a simplification thereof.
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