Gender: an eternal characteristic

[Jason]

Those are functions of the brain, which is a physical organ. If you poke and prod the right places, you can change the way someone thinks, approaches social situations, perceives the world, etc.

If you break the head off of a hammer you can change how someone uses the hammer too. That doesn't mean the hammer was what decided how it was going to be used before.

[Jason]

See the rest of my previous comment to see why this is non-sense. If you can't see it, then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your mind is focused on the other threads/fronts you are fighting.

You only see it as nonsense because you insist that gender is biological/physical.

[the narrator]

You only see it as nonsense because you insist that gender is biological/physical.

No. I'm calling it non-sense because you haven't given anything to show what sense it has.

[Ahab]

See the rest of my previous comment to see why this is non-sense. If you can't see it, then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your mind is focused on the other threads/fronts you are fighting.

I can see that it's not nonsense, and I think you think it's nonsense because you can't see how it does make sense.

[the narrator]

I can see that it's not nonsense, and I think you think it's nonsense because you can't see how it does make sense.

Please show how it makes sense. Show how saying a premortal spirit is a "he" is different that saying that a premortal spirit is a "sudan."

[Ahab]

Please show how it makes sense. Show how saying a premortal spirit is a "he" is different that saying that a premortal spirit is a "sudan."

First, please explain what a "sudan" is, while also telling me what I have told you about what a "he" is.

[the narrator]

First, please explain what a "sudan" is, while also telling me what I have told you about what a "he" is.

excuse me... "sedan."

and when you haven't told me what a "she" is, defining a he as a not-she is utterly useless.

[Storm Rider]

Please show how it makes sense. Show how saying a premortal spirit is a "he" is different that saying that a premortal spirit is a "sudan."

Narrator, assuming that you are male, go to a mirror fully nude and look at yourself. Do you have any difficulty identifying yourself as male? The same way you can identify your sex is the same way you can identify the sex of a spirit. They have both image and form. This isn't rocket science.

[LeSellers]

Please show how it makes sense. Show how saying a premortal spirit is a "he" is different that saying that a premortal spirit is a "sudan."

Let's assume that there are two kinds of intelligences. Call them (for convenience) "X" and "Y".

While there is no "sex" attached to either X or Y, whatever characteristics each type has are general within the class and may be considered as representative of the class.

Further, each class is attracted to the other in ways that emphasize the complementary aspects of the typical characteristics of the class. Each is, in effect, incomplete with out the other. This does not necessarily mean that they pair up, although it could be the case. It does not mean (and cannot mean, because intelligences are eternal and not created) that they reproduce or have any sort of "intimate relations". It means they are comfortable with each other for no other reason than that they are complementary.

Intelligences aside, I have become convinced that the phrase "opposite sex" is misleading and distractingly confrontational. I also believe that there is a much better alternative: "complementary sex" used in the same contexts so as to describe the true nature of the relationship of the sexes. It's a bit more work to type and even to say (five versus three syllables

[Ahab]

excuse me... "sedan."

and when you haven't told me what a "she" is, defining a he as a not-she is utterly useless.

Okay, I'll try again.

First of all, we're talking about children of God, our Father in heaven, which are created as EITHER males OR females, with either not being able to be both, or neither.

So, now, so far, you should know that we're talking about a particular kind of living being, rather than something like a car which isn't a living being.

To go a little further, we're talking about how it takes both a male and a female of this kind of living being to create another person of the same being, which will also be either male or female.

So, now, so far, you should know that we're talking about a particular kind of living being which is either male or female and that it takes one of each sex/gender to create another person of the same kind of being, which will also be either male or female.

I hope that makes a least a little bit of sense to you now, but if not, ask our Father in heaven for more details, because he can explain it all to you a lot better than I can.

And who knows, it may be something you'll never understand until you meet another person of the opposite sex, and you can see the differences between that person of that sex/gender and you.

[Ahab]

Narrator, assuming that you are male, go to a mirror fully nude and look at yourself. Do you have any difficulty identifying yourself as male? The same way you can identify your sex is the same way you can identify the sex of a spirit. They have both image and form. This isn't rocket science.

Some people, like Darin, think it's possible that a female spirit child of God wound up in a male "human" body, or vice versa, though, so that can make the issue a little more complicated.

And btw, rather than disputing that idea, I'm simply saying that if that particular spirit child of God was indeed a female when God created her, she is still a female EVEN IF she wound up in a male "human" body, because her gender was determined when God created that person, with her gender being what her gender was then.

[the narrator]

Narrator, assuming that you are male, go to a mirror fully nude and look at yourself. Do you have any difficulty identifying yourself as male? The same way you can identify your sex is the same way you can identify the sex of a spirit. They have both image and form. This isn't rocket science.

I addressed this in an earlier comment. The shape of my body and that I have a penis is determined by DNA from both of my parents. That I have a penis is randomly chosen based on which sperm of my fathers reached my mothers egg first. My height, hair color, body shape, eyes, and every other form of my body is based on the genetic combination that I randomly received from both of my parents (other non-genetic aspects are a result of my life and activities, such as the fat across my stomach and the length of my hair. My genitals are the type and shape they are because of my cells following the instructions encoded into my DNA. All biological lifeforms in the world have their shape because of the same thing. My DNA is why I have the shape that I have and not the shape of horse, spider, or evergreen. This is all gross and biological matter, that which my spirit is not composed of. Because premortal spirits do not have biological DNA or biological matter, it makes no sense to say that they are gendered/sexed in the same way that biological lifes are gendered/sexed.

[the narrator]

Let's assume that there are two kinds of intelligences. Call them (for convenience) "X" and "Y".

While there is no "sex" attached to either X or Y, whatever characteristics each type has are general within the class and may be considered as representative of the class.

Further, each class is attracted to the other in ways that emphasize the complementary aspects of the typical characteristics of the class. Each is, in effect, incomplete with out the other. This does not necessarily mean that they pair up, although it could be the case. It does not mean (and cannot mean, because intelligences are eternal and not created) that they reproduce or have any sort of "intimate relations". It means they are comfortable with each other for no other reason than that they are complementary.

Intelligences aside, I have become convinced that the phrase "opposite sex" is misleading and distractingly confrontational. I also believe that there is a much better alternative: "complementary sex" used in the same contexts so as to describe the true nature of the relationship of the sexes. It's a bit more work to type and even to say (five versus three syllables

[Ahab]

My DNA is why I have the shape that I have and not the shape of horse, spider, or evergreen. This is all gross and biological matter, that which my spirit is not composed of. Because premortal spirits do not have biological DNA or biological matter, it makes no sense to say that they are gendered/sexed in the same way that biological lifes are gendered/sexed.

Try thinking you have something like spiritual DNA from God which determined whether your spirit was created as either male or female.

Your "spirit" body does consist of some type of substance, even though it isn't the same substance as your "human" body, and the "code" that determined whether your spirit was born male or female was something you received from God's spiritual substance, something like DNA.

[the narrator]

First of all, we're talking about children of God, our Father in heaven, which are created as EITHER males OR females, with either not being able to be both, or neither.

What does it mean to say they were created as spirit males or females?

"First of all, we're talking about children of God, our Father in heaven, which are created as EITHER sedans OR sport cares, with either not being able to be both, or neither

So, now, so far, you should know that we're talking about a particular kind of living being, rather than something like a car which isn't a living being.

I never said cars on earth were living beings. I sad that premortal spirits were cars. Just as you want to say premortal gender is not physical biological sex, i'm saying that premortal cars are not physical worldly cars.

To go a little further, we're talking about how it takes both a male and a female of this kind of living being to create another person of the same being, which will also be either male or female.

Are you saying that premortal spirits reproduce? If not, then your argument doesn't hold.

So, now, so far, you should know that we're talking about a particular kind of living being which is either male or female and that it takes one of each sex/gender to create another person of the same kind of being, which will also be either male or female.

"So, now, so far, you should know that we're talking about a particular kind of living being which is either sedan or sports car and that it takes one of each automobile to create another person of the same kind of being, which will also be either sedan or sports car (which latter point hasn't been shown to be true with regards to premortal spirits)"

I hope that makes a least a little bit of sense to you now, but if not, ask our Father in heaven for more details, because he can explain it all to you a lot better than I can.

It's still just as hollow.

And who knows, it may be something you'll never understand until you meet another person of the opposite sex, and you can see the differences between that person of that sex/gender and you.

I'm quite aware of both my wife;s different sex and gender. Not sure how those things make any sense with non-biological premortal spirits though. And you still haven't shown anything to claim they do have sense.

[Jason]

The Narrator - do you actually believe in spirits in the first place? If not then debating with you what gender they are and what gender means to them is pointless.

[the narrator]

Try thinking you have something like spiritual DNA from God which determined whether your spirit was created as either male or female.

Your "spirit" body does consist of some type of substance, even though it isn't the same substance as your "human" body, and the "code" that determined whether your spirit was born male or female was something you received from God's spiritual substance, something like DNA.

Ok. i'm imagining spiritual DNA (whatever that would be)... now what do they do and what does it mean to say they determine premortal non-biological sex/gender?

[the narrator]

The Narrator - do you actually believe in spirits in the first place? If not then debating with you what gender they are and what gender means to them is pointless.

Yes. I believe we had some sort of premortal existence as spirits/intelligences.

[Ahab]

What does it mean to say they were created as spirit males or females?

"First of all, we're talking about children of God, our Father in heaven, which are created as EITHER sedans OR sport cars, with either not being able to be both, or neither

Well, at least you seem to recognize the fact that sedans and sports cars are 2 kinds of cars, with a sedan being something other than a sports car, but I don't think it's a valid analogy because a sports car isn't necessarily the opposite of a sedan, while a male is the opposite of a female. Equals, but opposites, and both good.

To make your analogy work a little better, try thinking of some kind of living being, rather than something like a car, which isn't living.

I never said cars on earth were living beings. I sad that premortal spirits were cars. Just as you want to say premortal gender is not physical biological sex, i'm saying that premortal cars are not physical worldly cars.

A person's spirit is a biological entity with sex/gender, though, even though it doesn't have a physical "human" body.

Are you saying that premortal spirits reproduce? If not, then your argument doesn't hold.

No, not premortal spirits, because they haven't matured that much yet, but postmortal spirits can reproduce, yes.

Try thinking of a premortal spirit as either a baby to fully grown caterpillar, and a postmortal spirit in a resurrected body as a butterfly, with only the butterfly being able to reproduce more caterpillars with another butterfly of the opposite sex/gender, and with those baby caterpillars they create also being able to later become butterflies, themselves.

[Jason]

Yes. I believe we had some sort of premortal existence as spirits/intelligences.

But they had no gender?

Do you think you and your wife might just as likely have been born in the other gender?

[the narrator]

But they had no gender?

Do you think you and your wife might just as likely have been born in the other gender?

yes. i believe that the premortal intelligence that entered into my biological body could have been born into a female body if a different sperm had won the race, or if that spirit went into a different body on the other side of the world.

[the narrator]

Well, at least you seem to recognize the fact that sedans and sports cars are 2 kinds of cars, with a sedan being something other than a sports car, but I don't think it's a valid analogy because a sports car isn't necessarily the opposite of a sedan, while a male is the opposite of a female. Equals, but opposites, and both good.

I recognize that sedans and sports cars are two different types of physical automobiles on earth. My point is that, like gender, it's non-sense to say premortal spirits are those things.

To make your analogy work a little better, try thinking of some kind of living being, rather than something like a car, which isn't living.

But with premortal sedans are living! They are our premortal spirits!

A person's spirit is a biological entity with sex/gender, though, even though it doesn't have a physical "human" body.

non-physical biology is even more non-sense. we might as well talk about round squares and water made composed of sodium and chloride atoms.

No, not premortal spirits, because they haven't matured that much yet, but postmortal spirits can reproduce, yes.

I've always been taught that we needed PHYSICAL bodies to reproduce. Of course, I also think that physical bodies "reproducing" spirit bodies is also non-sense.

Try thinking of a premortal spirit as either a baby to fully grown caterpillar, and a postmortal spirit in a resurrected body as a butterfly, with only the butterfly being able to reproduce more caterpillars with another butterfly of the opposite sex/gender, and with those baby caterpillars they create also being able to later become butterflies, themselves.

it makes sense to talk of a resurrected and embodied being having sex. it even makes sense for a non-physical being who has experienced biological/sociological gender to be gendered. what does not make sense is to say that a premortal spirit with no biological context has gender.

[Deborah]

yes. i believe that the premortal intelligence that entered into my biological body could have been born into a female body if a different sperm had won the race, or if that spirit went into a different body on the other side of the world.

Except that a female spirit is sent to a female body and male spirit to male body. There are biological mistakes in mortality but those will be corrected in the resurrection.

One interesting case was that of a boy who was born with a body with no distinctive genitalia. The doctors told the parents to raise the child as a girl because it was easier. They did but with disastrous results as the child always felt he was a boy and suffered throughout his life because of it. Later genetic testing proved this.Fortunately we can do this now so that children aren't forced to grow up what they know inside they aren't. (This is only for those cases where genitalia may not be fully developed and recognized.)

[Storm Rider]

I addressed this in an earlier comment. The shape of my body and that I have a penis is determined by DNA from both of my parents. That I have a penis is randomly chosen based on which sperm of my fathers reached my mothers egg first. My height, hair color, body shape, eyes, and every other form of my body is based on the genetic combination that I randomly received from both of my parents (other non-genetic aspects are a result of my life and activities, such as the fat across my stomach and the length of my hair. My genitals are the type and shape they are because of my cells following the instructions encoded into my DNA. All biological lifeforms in the world have their shape because of the same thing. My DNA is why I have the shape that I have and not the shape of horse, spider, or evergreen. This is all gross and biological matter, that which my spirit is not composed of. Because premortal spirits do not have biological DNA or biological matter, it makes no sense to say that they are gendered/sexed in the same way that biological lifes are gendered/sexed.

I appreciate your understanding of simple biology, but spirit has form and matter or substance. Why do you think your understanding of biology applies exactly or appropriately to the spirit world? You are attempting to apply the understanding of man to the workings of the God of the universe. Why do you think that is possible? There is so much that we don't understand. More important, we do not have the capacity at this point to understand very much. You really think the arm of flesh can understand the nature of God or how he creates all things. What we know is that we are created in the image and likeness of God. We know that families are forever; families centered around the union of male and female. This is sufficient for most of us to understand the meaning of male and female. To kick against the pricks because you don't agree or refuse to accept the obvious is not the best use of your time. What is that old saying....repeating the same action over and over again and expecting a different outcome is the definition of what?

As an aside, biology is hardly gross. It does not answer everything and it is man's attempt to understand the physical world. Do not forget that this is not just a physcial world, but a union of both spiritual and physical; without both we would not be here.

[Jason]

yes. i believe that the premortal intelligence that entered into my biological body could have been born into a female body if a different sperm had won the race, or if that spirit went into a different body on the other side of the world.

So in your view it was completely random that your wife and you ended up in different gendered bodies and could therefore marry?