Gender: an eternal characteristic

[the narrator]

Except that a female spirit is sent to a female body and male spirit to male body.

Except that there is no such thing as a female premortal spirit.

[the narrator]

I appreciate your understanding of simple biology, but spirit has form and matter or substance. Why do you think your understanding of biology applies exactly or appropriately to the spirit world? You are attempting to apply the understanding of man to the workings of the God of the universe.

My point is that biological concepts are a part of the physical (aka gross material) biological world and can't be applied to a non-physical (it an ordinary sense) and not biological world. Saying that a word or concept can be stripped of its context and applied elsewhere in a completely different context leaves the term meaningless (without giving it a new definition, which would then mean it can not mean the same thing as it originally did).

Why do you think that is possible? There is so much that we don't understand. More important, we do not have the capacity at this point to understand very much. You really think the arm of flesh can understand the nature of God or how he creates all things. What we know is that we are created in the image and likeness of God. We know that families are forever; families centered around the union of male and female. This is sufficient for most of us to understand the meaning of male and female. To kick against the pricks because you don't agree or refuse to accept the obvious is not the best use of your time. What is that old saying....repeating the same action over and over again and expecting a different outcome is the definition of what?

I'm making a grammatical point. Saying that a word or concept can be stripped of its context and applied elsewhere in a completely different context leaves the term meaningless (without giving it a new definition, which would then mean it can not mean the same thing as it originally did).

As an aside, biology is hardly gross.

I'm not saying it is discussing I'm saying that biology is strictly about the physical observable world. If you disagree go to a biology class and start talking about spirit matter. See how far it gets you.

[the narrator]

So in your view it was completely random that your wife and you ended up in different gendered bodies and could therefore marry?

Yes. And it is also completely random that I happened to even meet my wife. If I hadn't met her, there would have been a hundred other women I could have met that I would have been pleased to marry.

[Tsuzuki]

Those are functions of the brain, which is a physical organ. If you poke and prod the right places, you can change the way someone thinks, approaches social situations, perceives the world, etc.

If you break the head off of a hammer you can change how someone uses the hammer too. That doesn't mean the hammer was what decided how it was going to be used before.

Hammers are inanimate objects, while everything "non-physical" about you is in your brain. It's not a mysterious black box independent of your spirit. We actually know how it works. Your brain, or more specifically the neurochemistry and configuration of synapses in your brain, is your spirit.

[LeSellers]

But what are those "characteristics"?

It is really unimportant.

The (assumed) fact that there were two separate and complementary kinds of intelligences (and later, spirits) is all we need to be able to claim that there were two sexes in premortality. Why God assigned the "X" type to be females and the "Y" type to be males is uncomprehended, and perhaps incomprehensible.

Now, as to the differentiation between male and female spirits, I believe that this is clear: men have male sexual characteristics and female have female sexual characteristics. We can safely assume this because our spirits looked like our future bodies. Or, at least, like our perfect future bodies. My spirit did not have a tip missing on my little finger, nor a (thankfully now missing in the physical realm, as well) a pot belly.

The intelligence I was prior to being "born" in spiritual premortality (to distinguish between that and intelligence premortality) may or may not have had a head, much less a beard.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

Except that there is no such thing as a female premortal spirit.

In your obstinate and uniformed opinion.

Lehi

[the narrator]

It is really unimportant.

Actually it's quite important. If you are going to say that something is "X" then in order for it to have sense, "X" must be definable in a manner that distinguishes it from any other variable.

The (assumed) fact that there were two separate and complementary kinds of intelligences (and later, spirits) is all we need to be able to claim that there were two sexes in premortality. Why God assigned the "X" type to be females and the "Y" type to be males is uncomprehended, and perhaps incomprehensible.

That's the problem. I'm not assuming it's a fact. I'm claiming it's non-sense.

Now, as to the differentiation between male and female spirits, I believe that this is clear: men have male sexual characteristics and female have female sexual characteristics.

BUT WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? WHAT ARE THOSE "SEXUAL" CHARACTERISTICS?

We can safely assume this because our spirits looked like our future bodies.

I don't assume that our premortal spirits looked like our future bodies. Do you know how genetics work?

Or, at least, like our perfect future bodies.

Why would our spirits look like that? Are our future bodies unrelated to our present bodies?

My spirit did not have a tip missing on my little finger, nor a (thankfully now missing in the physical realm, as well) a pot belly.

I don't even think your premortal spirit had fingers.

The intelligence I was prior to being "born" in spiritual premortality (to distinguish between that and intelligence premortality) may or may not have had a head, much less a beard.

The notion that intelligences were born into spirits is unscriptural. Joseph Smith used the terms intelligence, spirit, and soul interchangably. The idea that intelligences were born into spirts didn't happen until long after Joseph Smith. In fact, Joseph Smith never even taught that we were literally children of God.

[Ahab]

Your brain, or more specifically the neurochemistry and configuration of synapses in your brain, is your spirit.

No, not your brain, silly. Your mind is your spirit, and your mind isn't the same thing as your brain or those things in your head.

[the narrator]

In your obstinate and uniformed opinion.

Lehi

Wow. No need to be rude. Just because I disagree with your speculative theology doesn't mean that I am uninformed. I feel quite confident that I have done much more study on preexistence in Mormonism than you have.

[the narrator]

No, not your brain, silly. Your mind is your spirit, and your mind isn't the same thing as your brain or those things in your head.

Looks like we have a Cartesian in the house.

[Daniel2]

Narrator,

I'm not really sure what it is that you're trying to get at with the line of questioning asking "what is it about a spirit body that makes it male or female?"

I would presume that it seems self-evident to most Latter-day Saints that the things that make spirits male or female is their sexual organs--that is, spirit bodies are, for the most part, 'in the similitude' of physical bodies. Namely, on the whole, spirit children of Heavenly Father have one head, two eyes, a torso, two arms and legs, ten fingers and toes, and yes--male and female genitals--only their bodies are 'perfect,' and any of the mortal 'flaws' we experience on earth (birth defects, moles, birth marks, baldness, amputation, malformed appendages, etc) are because of biological imperfections.

Is it any stretch, or even controversial, to assert that most Mormons simply assume that spirits have male and female genitalia...?

Darin

[Nathair/|\]

Narrator,

I'm not really sure what it is that you're trying to get at with the line of questioning asking "what is it about a spirit body that makes it male or female?"

I would presume that it seems self-evident to most Latter-day Saints that the things that make spirits male or female is their sexual organs--that is, spirit bodies are, for the most part, 'in the similitude' of physical bodies. Namely, on the whole, spirit children of Heavenly Father have one head, two eyes, a torso, two arms and legs, ten fingers and toes, and yes--male and female genitals--only their bodies are 'perfect,' and any of the mortal 'flaws' we experience on earth (birth defects, moles, birth marks, baldness, amputation, malformed appendages, etc) are because of biological imperfections.

Is it any stretch, or even controversial, to assert that most Mormons simply assume that spirits have male and female genitalia...?

Darin

Thank you, Darin. That's pretty much how I understand it. Mind if I use that (in my own words) in my paper?

[the narrator]

Narrator,

I'm not really sure what it is that you're trying to get at with the line of questioning asking "what is it about a spirit body that makes it male or female?"

I would presume that it seems self-evident to most Latter-day Saints that the things that make spirits male or female is their sexual organs--that is, spirit bodies are, for the most part, 'in the similitude' of physical bodies. Namely, on the whole, spirit children of Heavenly Father have one head, two eyes, a torso, two arms and legs, ten fingers and toes, and yes--male and female genitals--only their bodies are 'perfect,' and any of the mortal 'flaws' we experience on earth (birth defects, moles, birth marks, baldness, amputation, malformed appendages, etc) are because of biological imperfections.

Is it any stretch, or even controversial, to assert that most Mormons simply assume that spirits have male and female genitalia...?

Darin

Not controversial, but non-sense. It makes a good image (as most fantasy does), but once you look at it, it stops making sense. As I just mentioned before, the scriptures do not teach that we are literal (sexually reproduced and birthed) children of God, and Joseph Smith did not teach it. To make that step just dives into non-sense.

[Daniel2]

I think we're agreed on those points, and I was simply talking about what we have been told about gender.

Cool.

Ah, but what if you're really a woman, spiritually, trapped in a man's body, and you've just become so accustomed to your male body that you believe you are a man.

You just admitted that it's possible that a spirit could be erroneously born into a body of the 'wrong' (mismatched) gender, just as these physical manifestations vary or are different from the make-up of a child's eternal spirit--especially in the case of intersexed individuals (that is, individuals born with ambiguous genitalia, or genitals of both genders, or mismatched DNA/hormones/physical genitals).

I do believe you believe you're a man, but maybe you haven't had enough therapy, yet.

It looks like I need to clarify something, Ahab: although I was born and raised in the church, am quite familiar with LDS scripture, belief, and culture, served a mission (and read all the 'deep doctrine' books by Joseph F. Smith, Bruce McConkie, Joseph Fielding Smith, Spencer Kimball, etc), I'm a total non-believer when it comes to LDS theology. For me, when discussing doctrine, it's rather like someone taking a profound interest in discussing Greek Mythology, or the dense and detailed works of J.R.R. Tolkien. I find Mormonism fascinating on a mythic and intellectual and even spiritual level, but not in any literal sense.

I don't believe in any Heavenly Father or Mother, nor do I hold any concrete belief that any of our physical bodies are animated by pre-existent 'spirits.' I am a secular humanist, naturalist, Unitarian Universalist. I appreciate religious philosophy and belief, and believe the myths humans create to attempt to understand life, death, and the meaning behind everything is intreaguing.

As such, I don't and can't buy into the concept that I have a spiritual body that could actually be female (of course, if I'm mistaken, and LDS doctrine is true, it wouldn't matter what I believed one way or the other--so, from that vantage point, I guess you could presume to believe that I'm really a woman trapped in a man's body that's fooled into thinking I'm simply gay... but I even if I do have a spirit, I'm fairly certain I'm just a guy, inside and out! )

Darin

[Jason]

Yes. And it is also completely random that I happened to even meet my wife. If I hadn't met her, there would have been a hundred other women I could have met that I would have been pleased to marry.

I don't believe that events of such importance as who you will be with for the rest of eternity are determined completely randomly.

[Ahab]

Narrator,

I'm not really sure what it is that you're trying to get at with the line of questioning asking "what is it about a spirit body that makes it male or female?"

I would presume that it seems self-evident to most Latter-day Saints that the things that make spirits male or female is their sexual organs--that is, spirit bodies are, for the most part, 'in the similitude' of physical bodies. Namely, on the whole, spirit children of Heavenly Father have one head, two eyes, a torso, two arms and legs, ten fingers and toes, and yes--male and female genitals--only their bodies are 'perfect,' and any of the mortal 'flaws' we experience on earth (birth defects, moles, birth marks, baldness, amputation, malformed appendages, etc) are because of biological imperfections.

Is it any stretch, or even controversial, to assert that most Mormons simply assume that spirits have male and female genitalia...?

Darin

Very well put.

Now why didn't I think of saying it as clearly as that?

[Jason]

Hammers are inanimate objects, while everything "non-physical" about you is in your brain. It's not a mysterious black box independent of your spirit. We actually know how it works. Your brain, or more specifically the neurochemistry and configuration of synapses in your brain, is your spirit.

If that's what you believe then there is no reason for you to participate any further in a thread about immortal spirits and whether or not they have gender.

And no, we don't really know how it works.

[the narrator]

I don't believe that events of such importance as who you will be with for the rest of eternity are determined completely randomly.

Well it did take some work to convince my sweetheart to marry me. If you marriage were destined, inevitable, or some stupid Saturday's Warrior nonsense, I wouldn't want it.

Hmm... I think I just figured out the problem.

The problem is Saturday's Warrior. It's screwed everyone up into thinking it was real.

[the narrator]

If that's what you believe then there is no reason for you to participate any further in a thread about immortal spirits and whether or not they have gender.

And no, we don't really know how it works.

Yes. His reasoning which points out the problems of assuming premortal gender should not be allowed into the discussion.

[Jason]

Yes. His reasoning which points out the problems of assuming premortal gender should not be allowed into the discussion.

He doesn't appear to believe in the pre-mortal existence of a spirit in the first place, which would make the discussion rather trivial to him.

Jesus appeared to the Brother of Jared in "the body of his spirit" and said that he would appear in his actual physical body the same way.

According to you his gender was completely random. What would have happened if Jesus had been born a woman instead of a man? Would he have been lying to the Brother of Jared?

What of Isaiah's prophecy that the Messiah would be a son? If Jesus had been born female would Isaiah have been mistaken?

[the narrator]

He doesn't appear to believe in the pre-mortal existence of a spirit in the first place, which would make the discussion rather trivial to him.

Jesus appeared to the Brother of Jared in "the body of his spirit" and said that he would appear in his actual physical body the same way.

According to you his gender was completely random. What would have happened if Jesus had been born a woman instead of a man? Would he have been lying to the Brother of Jared?

What of Isaiah's prophecy that the Messiah would be a son? If Jesus had been born female would Isaiah have been mistaken?

Jesus's conception was hardly ordinary.

Also, this doesn't mean that the premortal Jesus always had human form. He could have just taken one to make communication with Mahonri a little easier, something like Contact--which is a fairly common argument for anthropomorphic descriptions of God in the OT.

[Daniel2]

Thank you, Darin. That's pretty much how I understand it. Mind if I use that (in my own words) in my paper?

Don't mind at all--feel free to use whatever you wish.

Darin

[Tsuzuki]

No, not your brain, silly. Your mind is your spirit, and your mind isn't the same thing as your brain or those things in your head.

If you were talking about intelligences, I would agree with you, but nowhere does it say that intelligences have any specific characteristics, let alone gender. They seem like naked consciousness outside of time and space. You can't really say much about them.

[Uncertain]

Well this is an interesting topic. If I understand Narrators point correctly he is arguing gender as it is commonly used and defined is entirely physical. When a baby is born we don't perform some kinda of spiritual gender definition test to determine the gender of the babies spirits (assuming spirits have gender). Instead we give the baby a spank turn it over get a look at what certain physical characteristics it has and write male or female on the birth certificate. Gender is entirely defined based on certain physical characteristics. Hence when someone states spirits have gender this is a nonsensical statement because gender as we use it is defined entirely by certain physical attributes and spirits don't have a body. And just saying spirits have gender without defining what that means in a context entirely devoid of the physical characteristics we use to define gender here on earth is not helpful and conveys no information. Suppose I was to claim Australians have a characteristic defined as "zoom" when asked to define exactly what that means I claim I don't know only that I know they have this characteristic. Well if I can't define what is meant by "zoom" then claiming Australians have "zoom" is meaningless I have in fact not described in a meaningful fashion anything about Australians.

Similarly claiming spirits have gender without defining what that means tells me nothing about the characteristics of spirits. I know what gender means here on earth it refers to specific physical attributes. Since spirits don't have bodies it can't mean the same thing so what does it mean?

Now as pointed out by Darrin you could simply claim spirits have those physical attributes we use to distinguish between genders in physical bodies. In which case gender simply means spirits are shaped like humans and have "spiritual" male or female parts. To me this seems somewhat reasonable except it still provides two different and possibly contradictory definitions of gender. Suppose a spirit with female parts was born into a male body according to the definition of gender we use everyday here on earth that person would be a male they have male parts. But according to the "spiritual" definition of gender they are female hence mutually exclusive genders are assigned which is messy to say the least. Narrators objection to this idea of spirits with male and female parts as I understand it is that gender is defined on the basis of physical attributes hence speaking of "spiritual" gender is nonsensical there can be no such thing because gender is defined physically. I can understand his viewpoint but will simply say gender in such things as the proclamation to the family is using a different definition of gender than everyday usage which is confusing to say the least but still seems fair to me. It is like finding a new flower and calling it a rose yes this is going to be very confusing but does not mean the flower being called a rose does not exist. There is such a flower it is just an unfortunate choice to call it a rose.

Now I still think my Australian example used above holds in this case. Simply saying gender in spirits is different than how we define gender here on earth may be legitimate. But unless I can define what I mean by spirits having gender then I have really not produced any meaningful information about spirits. Simply saying it is different than physically having male or female parts does not define what is does mean to claim spirits have gender.

Best,

Uncertain

[Ahab]

If you were talking about intelligences, I would agree with you, but nowhere does it say that intelligences have any specific characteristics, let alone gender. They seem like naked consciousness outside of time and space. You can't really say much about them.

I can say a lot, although you could just call it speculation.

An "intelligence" is a form of life, and our intelligence came from God, our Father in heaven, when he created our spirits. But not from out of nothing, or only beginning with him, as some people suppose, but from an eternal source of his and our form of intelligence which has been around forever, which we call God. Thus, life doesn't begin at conception, because life doesn't begin. Life continues as each kind of being reproduces however that kind of being reproduces, and we (all men/women and boys/girls on this planet) are the children of our Father in heaven, with Jesus Christ being the first one who was reproduced by our Father in heaven, in the spirit, as an embodied intelligence, gender/sex: male.