Gender: an eternal characteristic

[Jason]

I mean... "what does it mean? What are those characteristics?

Characteristics typical of a gender that are not strictly physical. Ways of thinking, approaches to social situations, methods of perceiving the world, etc.

What is premortal gender? What is premortal sex?"

You might as well ask "what is gender? What is sex?"

It's a descriptive term for humanity, dividing it into two subsets which share common characteristics. It is also a fundamental and important difference between the two subsets.

[the narrator]

Characteristics typical of a gender that are not strictly physical. Ways of thinking, approaches to social situations, methods of perceiving the world, etc.

You might as well ask "what is gender? What is sex?"

It's a descriptive term for humanity, dividing it into two subsets which share common characteristics. It is also a fundamental and important difference between the two subsets.

I know how those lines are drawn in our biological existence. How are they drawn in non-biological preexistence?

[Jason]

I know how those lines are drawn in our biological existence. How are they drawn in non-biological preexistence?

You can't name any of the non-biological differences between men and women?

[the narrator]

You can't name any of the non-biological differences between men and women?

I can name some in mortality that are culturally constructed and based on a biological context of sex.

Not sure how those have any relevance to non-biological premortal spirits.

[Jason]

I can name some in mortality that are culturally constructed and based on a biological context of sex.

You forgot to add "...that I belive are culturally..."

LDS doctrine confirms that not all of the differences between men and women are culturally constructed and biologically based.

[the narrator]

You forgot to add "...that I belive are culturally..."

LDS doctrine confirms that not all of the differences between men and women are culturally constructed and biologically based.

which ones are those?

[Jason]

which ones are those?

Characteristics typical of a gender that are not strictly physical. Ways of thinking, approaches to social situations, methods of perceiving the world, etc.

[the narrator]

Characteristics typical of a gender that are not strictly physical. Ways of thinking, approaches to social situations, methods of perceiving the world, etc.

I need specifics. Otherwise we aren't saying anything.

[Jason]

I need specifics. Otherwise we aren't saying anything.

Allright, I admit I don't have anything that specific.

The revelation specifies that gender is a characteristic of spirit without going into specifics, so I can only guess what specific characteristics are strictly spiritual - I only know that there must be some such characteristics in order for the revelation to be meaningful.

[the narrator]

Allright, I admit I don't have anything that specific.

Then it isn't saying anything.

Might as well say that we had automobiles in the preexistence.

The revelation specifies that gender is a characteristic of spirit without going into specifics, so I can only guess what specific characteristics are strictly spiritual - I only know that there must be some such characteristics in order for the revelation to be meaningful.

what revelation?

[Ahab]

For my Race, Class, Gender and Ethnicity course, I will be writing a paper on the following statement on the following statement from the Proclamation on the Family...

...and how it relates to eternal marriage. Any ideas on what I should include? One thing I want to spend a few sentences on is trans-sexuality as a function of brain anatomy and how our spirits do not have that problem. That's only a small part of my paper, though, so please don't turn this into a thread about LGBT and SSA issues. My main intent is to help bring the Church out of obscurity and darkness and show people who we really are.

Yours under the gospel-exposing oaks,

Nathair /|\

I would say something about how our gender is determined by the gender of our spirit and our gender will always be the same regardless of any changes our "physical" body will go through.

[Jason]

Then it isn't saying anything.

Might as well say that we had automobiles in the preexistence.

Perhaps we did.

what revelation?

The Proclamation on the Family.

[the narrator]

The Proclamation on the Family.

that's a revelation? why do you say so?

[Jason]

that's a revelation?

Yes.

why do you say so?

On the most basic level, because the Spirit of God has testified to me that it is a true revelation. But also beacuse it matches my personal experience.

[Daniel2]

I agree with Narrator that "The Proclamation on the Family" isn't a revelation by LDS standards. In fact, my apologetics standards, it isn't even within the doctrinal cannon of the Church.

As far as "what is gender?"... it's a very complicated question to answer, even if it seems so deceptively simple in most of the population. All of the following may affect/alter/change/determine "gender":

cultural constructs

DNA

secondary sex characteristics

physical anatomy

hormones

A person may have the physical anatomy of one gender, but structural DNA of the other. Or a variety of the above characteristics. The simple language of the LDS Proclamation on the family doesn't really address the complexity of the issue of "what is gender?"

Darin

[Jason]

I agree with Narrator that "The Proclamation on the Family" isn't a revelation by LDS standards. In fact, my apologetics standards, it isn't even within the doctrinal cannon of the Church.

Obviously I disagree.

The simple language of the LDS Proclamation on the family doesn't really address the complexity of the issue of "what is gender?"

Except to state that it's an essential characteristic of our being, whether we are currently just spirits or spirits and bodies together, and to describe some of the general responsibilities of each gender.

[the narrator]

Except to state that it's an essential characteristic of our being, whether we are currently just spirits or spirits and bodies together, and to describe some of the general responsibilities of each gender.

but if what is meant by 'gender' isn't clear or have sense, then it isn't saying anything about our premortal spirits. We might as well say that our premortal spirits have mustaches, and then add that those mustaches are different than our worldly understanding of mustaches.

[Ahab]

but if what is meant by 'gender' isn't clear or have sense, then it isn't saying anything about our premortal spirits. We might as well say that our premortal spirits have mustaches, and then add that those mustaches are different than our worldly understanding of mustaches.

What the people who wrote that Proclamation were saying, as it relates to you, is that you are either male, or you are female, and you will always be whatever gender you are forever and ever, because whether you are male or female is something that you have no power to change.

You can change the look of your body, even adding a part or 2 or 3 here, or removing a part or 2 or 3 there, but you will always be either a male or a female, regardless of whatever gender you think you are.

[the narrator]

What the people who wrote that Proclamation were saying, as it relates to you, is that you are either male, or you are female, and you will always be whatever gender you are forever and ever, because whether you are male or female is something that you have no power to change.

You can change the look of your body, even adding a part or 2 or 3 here, or removing a part or 2 or 3 there, but you will always be either a male or a female, regardless of whatever gender you think you are.

What is "male" and "female" ?

[Ahab]

What is "male" and "female" ?

I'll tell you this much: it takes one of each to create another person.

Now let me ask you this: If a person who is truly "male" in gender undergoes a surgical procedure to have a part added or removed from his body, down in those nether regions, do you think that male is still going to be male, or do you think it's possible that he could somehow become a person who is truly "female" in gender?

Hint: Any person who is truly "male" in gender will always be "male" in gender.

[Jason]

Sometimes the world over-simplifies religion. Other times it over-complicates what is pretty simple.

In neither case is the motivation to find the truth. It can be to ridicule, or to confuse, or to excuse.

[Daniel2]

Sometimes the world over-simplifies religion. Other times it over-complicates what is pretty simple.

In neither case is the motivation to find the truth. It can be to ridicule, or to confuse, or to excuse.

Actually, on the matter of gender, I don't think "the world" can 'over simplify' or 'over-complicate' the issue: for those individuals born intersexed, they simply exist, regardless of how complicated or simple the religion suggests the issue may be. The external world doesn't force itself to be "too complex" or "too easy"--it would be foolish to attempt to suggest "the world" isn't cooperating with your religious beliefs when the simplicity of the situation is that sometimes "the world" just doesn't match.

Darin

[frankenstein]

I would say something about how our gender is determined by the gender of our spirit and our gender will always be the same regardless of any changes our "physical" body will go through.

Can you demonstrate that as absolute truth?

[Ahab]

Can you demonstrate that as absolute truth?

No, because I can't show you I've followed someone around forever and ever to see that his/her gender has never changed.

I can tell you it's true, though, and I did.

[Daniel2]

Can you demonstrate that as absolute truth?

"Absolute truth" or not, I'm curious if he could even demonstrate the specifics he adds in his interpretation of the proclamation from anything within LDS doctrine or cannon.