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Gender: an eternal characteristic


Nathair/|\

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For my Race, Class, Gender and Ethnicity course, I will be writing a paper on the following statement on the following statement from the Proclamation on the Family...

Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

...and how it relates to eternal marriage. Any ideas on what I should include? One thing I want to spend a few sentences on is trans-sexuality as a function of brain anatomy and how our spirits do not have that problem. That's only a small part of my paper, though, so please don't turn this into a thread about LGBT and SSA issues. My main intent is to help bring the Church out of obscurity and darkness and show people who we really are.

Yours under the gospel-exposing oaks,

Nathair /|\

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For my Race, Class, Gender and Ethnicity course, I will be writing a paper on the following statement on the following statement from the Proclamation on the Family...

...and how it relates to eternal marriage. Any ideas on what I should include? One thing I want to spend a few sentences on is trans-sexuality as a function of brain anatomy and how our spirits do not have that problem. That's only a small part of my paper, though, so please don't turn this into a thread about LGBT and SSA issues. My main intent is to help bring the Church out of obscurity and darkness and show people who we really are.

Yours under the gospel-exposing oaks,

Nathair /|\

You might want to devote a paragraph or two on how this theology deals with the intersexed which is quite different than trans-sexuality.

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You might want to devote a paragraph or two on how this theology deals with the intersexed which is quite different than trans-sexuality.

I think about one paragraph to the effect that there are various kinds of birth defects, none of which are seen as having any eternal ramifications, ought to suffice.

Regards,

Pahoran

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I think about one paragraph to the effect that there are various kinds of birth defects, none of which are seen as having any eternal ramifications, ought to suffice.

Regards,

Pahoran

That's an easy response. But what is the fate of someone with XY chromosomes who is born with a vagina and breasts? For example, google the sad case of Caster Semenya. Many "women" born in this state do not realize they are genetically "men" until much later in life. My understanding is it is not simple ones chromosomes that determine sex but the advent of certain hormonal stages during pregnancy. So if I am genetically a man but physiologically a woman from birth, what does the Church say that I am? What sex is my spirit? If it is so essential to our being, how could it be that we cannot answer the question?

So if you are going to submit a paper "showing who you really are" you had better be ready for questions that would likely be essential in a class on gender identity.

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That's an easy response. But what is the fate of someone with XY chromosomes who is born with a vagina and breasts? For example, google the sad case of Caster Semenya. Many "women" born in this state do not realize they are genetically "men" until much later in life. My understanding is it is not simple ones chromosomes that determine sex but the advent of certain hormonal stages during pregnancy. So if I am genetically a man but physiologically a woman from birth, what does the Church say that I am? What sex is my spirit? If it is so essential to our being, how could it be that we cannot answer the question?

So if you are going to submit a paper "showing who you really are" you had better be ready for questions that would likely be essential in a class on gender identity.

Well John, there are various kinds of birth defects, none of which are seen as having any eternal ramifications.

Regards,

Pahoran

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Well John, there are various kinds of birth defects, none of which are seen as having any eternal ramifications.

Regards,

Pahoran

If Mormonism is superior because of the doctrine of eternal gender, than what is the eternal gender of Caster Semenya?

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has any one made the claim yet that ones mortal physical anatomy always matches ones spirit?

How does one determine the sex of one's spirit? You seem to have opened a can of worms here. Could it be that homosexuality is merely the product of trans-sexed spirits?

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How does one determine the sex of one's spirit? You seem to have opened a can of worms here. Could it be that homosexuality is merely the product of trans-sexed spirits?

Homosexual behavior is punishable, therefore it must be volitional.

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How does one determine the sex of one's spirit? You seem to have opened a can of worms here. Could it be that homosexuality is merely the product of trans-sexed spirits?

That men are called and foreordainded as High Priests shows, at least within the realm of LDS doctrine and scripture, that sex is determined premortally.

Homosexual behavior is punishable, therefore it must be volitional.

Assuming you mean homosexuality is not genetic, I don't think it necessarily follows. For example, there is an alcoholism gene yet such are not exempted from the Word of Wisdom. Ether 12:27 shows that our weaknesses are inborn. So while there is no evidence yet that homosexuality is inborn, it might be and of course such would not necessitate a change in LDS policy or doctrine.

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perhaps you can write about how it is nonsense to talk about a non-biological entity as having gender without a prior biological context .

In other words, our sexual characteristics are determined by our biological DNA. The shape of my body is what it is because of chromosomes passed from both of my parents during physical and biological sexual intercourse. My body has the shape it has and not the shape of a horse or dragonfly because of my DNA. My body has the sex it does because of my DNA. If a different sperm from my father fertilized the egg from my mother, I could have been born a female instead of a male.

It is non-sense to say that my premortal spirit was sexed. Sex is a biological factor and my premortal spirit, being non-biological, could not have had a sex.

Gender, while not being entirely biological, is parasitic upon a biological context of sex. It only makes sense t talk of gender with a biological context. Masculinity and femininity only have sense if male and female have sense.

Furthermore, because my being born biologically male or female is due to a random and arbitrary factor determined by the single-celled sperm, to tie a supposed pre-mortal gender with biological sex (as Mormon leaders seem to want to do) is quite problematic.

Of course, a big question still remains of what is meant by "gender" in the Proclamation. Due to the tendency of some Church leaders to avoid the S-E-X word at all costs, it is not clear whether the Proclamation was referring to actual gender (in a sociological/anthropological/psychological sense) or was simply avoiding the S-E-X word and using gender to refer to biological sex.

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Assuming you mean homosexuality is not genetic...

I mean that no one is forced by their inherent nature to engage in homosexual behavior - there is always personal choice involved at some level.
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It is non-sense to say that my premortal spirit was sexed. Sex is a biological factor and my premortal spirit, being non-biological, could not have had a sex.

I beleive your definition of sex is too narrow.
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Because you see it as strictly physical when it is in fact a characteristic of our spiritual nature as well.

Your next question is probably "how do you know?"

No. My next question is, "what does that even mean?"

Here is an analogous discussion:

"My dog has scales and lays eggs."

"That doesn't make sense. A dog is a hairy mammal that gives live birth."

"Your definition of dog is too narrow."

"How so?"

"You are defining dog as a hairy mammal that gives live birth when it is a fact that dogs also have scales and lay eggs."

Or a better analogy:

"This triangle has four sides."

"That doesn't make sense. A triangle has three sides."

"Your definition of triangle is too narrow."

"How so?

"You are defining triangle as having three sides when it is a fact that a characteristic of triangles is that they have four sides."

Or another analogy:

"My color of my dog's fur is D minor."

"That doesn't make sense. D minor is not a color, it is a musical note. You can't see it. It doesn't emit light. Color is measurement of light."

"Your definition of color is too narrow"

"How so?"

"You are defining color as a measurement of light when it is a fact that a characteristic of color is that they emit sounds."

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No. My next question is, "what does that even mean?"

It means that at least some of the characteristics that we identify as typical to one or the other gender do not have their origins solely in a person's biology, as they were also present before the person's birth.
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How does one determine the sex of one's spirit? You seem to have opened a can of worms here. Could it be that homosexuality is merely the product of trans-sexed spirits?

Your question reminds me of an unusual experience I once had with an LDS "spiritual healher (a.k.a. "psychic"--I know--that sounds like an oxy-moron--and I felt the same way...) by the name of Judy Nebel. She considers herself a conduit to the Spirit World, and claims that several of the Bretheren have acknowledged her apparent 'gift,' but that they coudln't/shouldn't acknowledge her publically (this, alone, places her in the realm of 'apostate' by many devout Latter-day Saints--and please don't misunderstand: I'm not trying to convince anyone she should be taken legitimately, I'm just describing how she presents herself).

Judy operates mostly with an LDS paradigm about the Plan of Salvation (often discussing individuals' pre-Mortal existence, referring to one's Patriarchal Blessing, and seeks to tap-into loved ones who have left mortality and crossed into the Spirit World).

Several years ago while I was still LDS and trying to find my own answers to my own homosexuality, an LDS friend of mine who was "attempting to overcome his SSA" found her to be helpful and encouraging in his quest to find LDS-related answers that helped him resist his temptations, and he referred me to her, belieiving she might say something that could benefit me. He arranged and paid for a phone consultation with Judy (apparently, spirtual psychic-ness works long-distance over the phone).

So, here's the relevant portion of my post... lol... Judy asked me some questions about my life, including my attractions towards members of my own gender. She then proceeded to offer me the following answer to 'my problem' of SSA:

I was a noble and great spirit in the war led by Satan in the pre-existence that followed the counsel in which Christ and Lucifer presented their opposing plans for the salvantion of Heavenly Father's children. In fact, so great had been my faith that I was a general in one of the armies... When I chose to follow Christ and helped in the efforts to cast Satan and his followers out of heaven, and chose to come down to earth to continue to progress by gaining a mortal body, Satan began planning my downfall.

To that end, [remember, this is all according to Judy], following my birth, Satan assigned the spirits of three of his female followers to surround my being, inhabit my body, and influence my attitudes, choices, and behaviors. Today, the spirits of these three women now fight my spirit for possession of my own body. Given that they crave physical intimacy that they will never have due to their non-embodied state because of their choice to follow Satan, and given that their spirits live and occassionally posses my own body, their sexual appetites affect my own spirit, and are actually the real source of my attractions for men.

Judy's recommendations were for me to seek out frequent Priesthood blessings, and to repeat a series of spiritual affirmations and supplications to Heavenly Father in my daily prayers that would help cast the spirits of these evil women out of my body, and therefore stop/lessen my 'same-sex attraction.' After telling me that full story, she then guided me through the series of affirmations for about half an hour. That was the one and only time I ever spoke with her (though she offers ongoing pychic therapy sessions for her clients for just $60 an hour!!!)

Of course--this isn't a doctrinally-binding explanation that's representative of the official LDS position on the subject. But such is how one woman tried to make sense of my "SSA".......

Darin

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I mean that no one is forced by their inherent nature to engage in homosexual behavior - there is always personal choice involved at some level.

can you choose to engage in homosexual behavior and engage in such behavior?

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On another note, though gender of a spirit is determined and set, I think it is reasonable - given all the numerous "birth defects" - that perhaps, that not ALL spirits end up the with a mortal body gender that matches the gender of the spirit.

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can you choose to engage in homosexual behavior and engage in such behavior?

What do you mean? I thought my statement that "homosexual behavior is volitional" already answered that question.
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