Gender: an eternal characteristic

[Ahab]

"Absolute truth" or not, I'm curious if he could even demonstrate the specifics he adds in his interpretation of the proclamation from anything within LDS doctrine or cannon.

All it takes is the realization that we were born as either sons or daughters of God, rather than as a hybrid of both wherein a person is both a son and a daughter at the same time.

You're either a son, OR you're a daughter, and I'm not interested in trying to guess at what you really are.

[Daniel2]

All it takes is the realization that we were born as either sons or daughters of God, rather than as a hybrid of both wherein a person is both a son and a daughter at the same time.

You're either a son, OR you're a daughter, and I'm not interested in trying to guess at what you really are.

I believe the point that you and I seem to be talking past each other on, however, is the concept that LDS doctrine is silent on the issue of whether or not a spirit son or daughter of God could be erroneously born into a physical body that does not conform to his/her eternally-existent spiritual gender.

That is... 'whole' spirit children are born into bodies with physical 'birth defects.' Common LDS thought suggests that a man born without an arm does not have a 'one-armed' spirit. Or that a child born with a chemical imbalance causing a mental disorder (bi-polar) does not have a 'bi-polar' spirit. Or that an individual born with any biological compenents that cause him or her to be attracted to the same gender would not have a 'gay' spirit.

It follows, then, that a spirit could be erroneously born into a body of the 'wrong' (mismatched) gender, just as these physical manifestations vary or are different from the make-up of a child's eternal spirit--especially in the case of intersexed individuals (that is, individuals born with ambiguous genitalia, or genitals of both genders, or mismatched DNA/hormones/physical genitals).

Although it's a common believe/assertion that "gender is an essential part of pre-mortal, mortal, and post-mortal character and destiny," I haven't seen anything in LDS doctrine or theology that definitively seeks to state that an individual's physical body ALWAYS is in the exact similitude of their spiritual gender.

Darin

P.S. You don't need to speculate on whether or not I'm a man or a woman. I'm physically, biologically, hormonally, and emotionally a man--I'm NOT transgendered or intersexed.

[the narrator]

Now let me ask you this: If a person who is truly "male" in gender undergoes a surgical procedure to have a part added or removed from his body, down in those nether regions, do you think that male is still going to be male, or do you think it's possible that he could somehow become a person who is truly "female" in gender?

Sex and gender are not necessarily identical. If sex is determined by DNA, then not matter of snipping and tucking is going to change one's sex. Since gender is largely performative, one can quite easily change their gender without changing their sex.

Hint: Any person who is truly "male" in gender will always be "male" in gender.

"truly"?

Not sure what you mean here.

[Ahab]

I believe the point that you and I seem to be talking past each other on, however, is the concept that LDS doctrine is silent on the issue of whether or not a spirit son or daughter of God could be erroneously born into a physical body that does not conform to his/her eternally-existent spiritual gender.

That is... 'whole' spirit children are born into bodies with physical 'birth defects.' Common LDS thought suggests that a man born without an arm does not have a 'one-armed' spirit. Or that a child born with a chemical imbalance causing a mental disorder (bi-polar) does not have a 'bi-polar' spirit. Or that an individual born with any biological compenents that cause him or her to be attracted to the same gender would not have a 'gay' spirit.

It follows, then, that a spirit could be erroneously born into a body of the 'wrong' (mismatched) gender, just as these physical manifestations vary or are different from the make-up of a child's eternal spirit--especially in the case of intersexed individuals (that is, individuals born with ambiguous genitalia, or genitals of both genders, or mismatched DNA/hormones/physical genitals).

Although it's a common belief/assertion that "gender is an essential part of pre-mortal, mortal, and post-mortal character and destiny," I haven't seen anything in LDS doctrine or theology that definitively seeks to state that an individual's physical body ALWAYS is in the exact similitude of their spiritual gender.

I think we're agreed on those points, and I was simply talking about what we have been told about gender.

P.S. You don't need to speculate on whether or not I'm a man or a woman. I'm physically, biologically, hormonally, and emotionally a man--I'm NOT transgendered or intersexed.

Ah, but what if you're really a woman, spiritually, trapped in a man's body, and you've just become so accustomed to your male body that you believe you are a man.

You just admitted that it's possible that a spirit could be erroneously born into a body of the 'wrong' (mismatched) gender, just as these physical manifestations vary or are different from the make-up of a child's eternal spirit--especially in the case of intersexed individuals (that is, individuals born with ambiguous genitalia, or genitals of both genders, or mismatched DNA/hormones/physical genitals).

I do believe you believe you're a man, but maybe you haven't had enough therapy, yet.

[Ahab]

Sex and gender are not necessarily identical. If sex is determined by DNA, then not matter of snipping and tucking is going to change one's sex.

I'm operating under the premise that our gender is in perfect harmony with our sex, spiritually speaking, and that our sex/gender is determined by what we were when God created us as his spirit children, either male or female.

In other words, the spirit body God created for us when he created us, spiritually, is either male or female.

Since gender is largely performative, one can quite easily change their gender without changing their sex.

The premise I'm operating under is that God created his sons as sons and that his sons will always be sons, spiritually, even if some of his sons alter their physical bodies to develop some female attributes.

In other words, a man doesn't become a woman, even though he may be surgically altered to look like a woman, because that man will always be a man, spiritually, who will never be a woman.

[the narrator]

I'm operating under the premise that our gender is in perfect harmony with our sex, spiritually speaking, and that our sex/gender is determined by what we were when God created us as his spirit children, either male or female.

In other words, the spirit body God created for us when he created us, spiritually, is either male or female.

The premise I'm operating under is that God created his sons as sons and that his sons will always be sons, spiritually, even if some of his sons alter their physical bodies to develop some female attributes.

In other words, a man doesn't become a woman, even though he may be surgically altered to look like a woman, because that man will always be a man, spiritually, who will never be a woman.

what does it mean to be spiritually created as a male?

[Ahab]

what does it mean to be spiritually created as a male?

When our Father in heaven created us, as his children, he created our spirits, which is what I meant by "spiritually", and when he did that, we were either boys or "male" children, while the others of us were girls or "female" children.

There were no hybrids, where some of us were both a boy and a girl, or a male and a female, at the same time.

We were either a boy or "male" child, or we were a girl or "female" child, in the day God created us as his children, spiritually.

[the narrator]

When our Father in heaven created us, as his children, he created our spirits, which is what I meant by "spiritually", and when he did that, we were either boys or "male" children, while the others of us were girls or "female" children.

There were no hybrids, where some of us were both a boy and a girl, or a male and a female, at the same time.

We were either a boy or "male" child, or we were a girl or "female" child, in the day God created us as his children, spiritually.

what is a "male" spirit child? how is it different from a "female" spirit child?

also, did God control the sperm that conceived me to ensure that i was born a male and not a female biologically?

[staccato]

Loved the psychic story, Darin!

[Ahab]

what is a "male" spirit child? how is it different from a "female" spirit child?

A male and female are equal but opposite sex/gender members of the same species, at least as those terms relate to our species.

Didn't anyone ever tell you about the birds and the bees?

Ask God for more details. He can tell you the truth of anything.

also, did God control the sperm that conceived me to ensure that i was born a male and not a female biologically?

Why don't you go ahead and ask God about that, too.

[Nathair/|\]

So, in a paper on that portion of the PotF, what else would be interesting to talk about to get exposure for LDS thought?

Yours under the approaching-deadline oaks,

Nathair /|\

[Pahoran]

So, in a paper on that portion of the PotF, what else would be interesting to talk about to get exposure for LDS thought?

Yours under the approaching-deadline oaks,

Nathair /|\

One thing you might want to point out (after glancing back over this thread) is that for Latter-day Saints, the biological details that pertain only to our mortal existence may be interesting, but they aren't actually relevant to our religious views. For us, as for most believers, the mechanism of how things work is largely (if not entirely) irrelevant to the great questions of why things are so.

Perhaps blurring this important distinction is a fairly crucial milestone on the road to apostasy.

Regards,

Pahoran

[the narrator]

A male and female are equal but opposite sex/gender members of the same species, at least as those terms relate to our species.

I know what that means with biology. Not sure what it means with SPIRITS.

What does it mean for a SPIRIT to be male?

[staccato]

I know what that means with biology. Not sure what it means with SPIRITS.

What does it mean for a SPIRIT to be male?

It is blue, silly.

[maupayman]

For my Race, Class, Gender and Ethnicity course, I will be writing a paper on the following statement on the following statement from the Proclamation on the Family...

...and how it relates to eternal marriage. Any ideas on what I should include? One thing I want to spend a few sentences on is trans-sexuality as a function of brain anatomy and how our spirits do not have that problem. That's only a small part of my paper, though, so please don't turn this into a thread about LGBT and SSA issues. My main intent is to help bring the Church out of obscurity and darkness and show people who we really are.

Yours under the gospel-exposing oaks,

Nathair /|\

You are writing a paper about the spirit and the proclamation to the family? What school is this for? How will you address hermaphrodites in this argument?

[maupayman]

Your question reminds me of an unusual experience I once had with an LDS "spiritual healher (a.k.a. "psychic"--I know--that sounds like an oxy-moron--and I felt the same way...) by the name of Judy Nebel. She considers herself a conduit to the Spirit World, and claims that several of the Bretheren have acknowledged her apparent 'gift,' but that they coudln't/shouldn't acknowledge her publically (this, alone, places her in the realm of 'apostate' by many devout Latter-day Saints--and please don't misunderstand: I'm not trying to convince anyone she should be taken legitimately, I'm just describing how she presents herself).

Judy operates mostly with an LDS paradigm about the Plan of Salvation (often discussing individuals' pre-Mortal existence, referring to one's Patriarchal Blessing, and seeks to tap-into loved ones who have left mortality and crossed into the Spirit World).

Several years ago while I was still LDS and trying to find my own answers to my own homosexuality, an LDS friend of mine who was "attempting to overcome his SSA" found her to be helpful and encouraging in his quest to find LDS-related answers that helped him resist his temptations, and he referred me to her, belieiving she might say something that could benefit me. He arranged and paid for a phone consultation with Judy (apparently, spirtual psychic-ness works long-distance over the phone).

So, here's the relevant portion of my post... lol... Judy asked me some questions about my life, including my attractions towards members of my own gender. She then proceeded to offer me the following answer to 'my problem' of SSA:

I was a noble and great spirit in the war led by Satan in the pre-existence that followed the counsel in which Christ and Lucifer presented their opposing plans for the salvantion of Heavenly Father's children. In fact, so great had been my faith that I was a general in one of the armies... When I chose to follow Christ and helped in the efforts to cast Satan and his followers out of heaven, and chose to come down to earth to continue to progress by gaining a mortal body, Satan began planning my downfall.

To that end, [remember, this is all according to Judy], following my birth, Satan assigned the spirits of three of his female followers to surround my being, inhabit my body, and influence my attitudes, choices, and behaviors. Today, the spirits of these three women now fight my spirit for possession of my own body. Given that they crave physical intimacy that they will never have due to their non-embodied state because of their choice to follow Satan, and given that their spirits live and occassionally posses my own body, their sexual appetites affect my own spirit, and are actually the real source of my attractions for men.

Judy's recommendations were for me to seek out frequent Priesthood blessings, and to repeat a series of spiritual affirmations and supplications to Heavenly Father in my daily prayers that would help cast the spirits of these evil women out of my body, and therefore stop/lessen my 'same-sex attraction.' After telling me that full story, she then guided me through the series of affirmations for about half an hour. That was the one and only time I ever spoke with her (though she offers ongoing pychic therapy sessions for her clients for just $60 an hour!!!)

Of course--this isn't a doctrinally-binding explanation that's representative of the official LDS position on the subject. But such is how one woman tried to make sense of my "SSA".......

Darin

That has to be one of the craziest stories i've ever heard. Thanks for sharing Darin.

[Tsuzuki]

Characteristics typical of a gender that are not strictly physical. Ways of thinking, approaches to social situations, methods of perceiving the world, etc.

Those are functions of the brain, which is a physical organ. If you poke and prod the right places, you can change the way someone thinks, approaches social situations, perceives the world, etc.

[Tsuzuki]

...Satan assigned the spirits of three of his female followers to surround my being...

I wouldn't mind having a trio of succubi following me around.

[Ahab]

I know what that means with biology. Not sure what it means with SPIRITS.

What does it mean for a SPIRIT to be male?

If a spirit is male, it means that spirit is a "he" rather than a "she", and that "he" needs a "she" to create another person.

That's at least one thing that means.

[the narrator]

If a spirit is male, it means that spirit is a "he" rather than a "she", and that "he" needs a "she" to create another person.

That's at least one thing that means.

Your just playing with circular semantics, and you know it.

How does a "he" spirit differ from a "she" spirit?

[Ahab]

Your just playing with circular semantics, and you know it.

How does a "he" spirit differ from a "she" spirit?

I'm talking about gender here, at the most fundamental level.

I think you're hoping I'll talk about particular parts of a male or female body, or certain attitudes or feelings that you'd like me to classify as being either male or female, but I'm just going for the most basic ideas behind what it means to be either male or female, and that simply involves one being the opposite sex/gender of the other.

When one is male, one is not female. The two are mutually exclusive, in the same person. The two can join together in some ways, such as to create another person, and the two can also learn to know what the other is thinking, but a male is not and never will be a female, nor will a female ever be a male person. It's totally impossible.

If you're a male, at your most basic level, then you will always be a male, and never a female.

[the narrator]

I'm talking about gender here, at the most fundamental level.

....for the most basic ideas behind what it means to be either male or female, and that simply involves one being the opposite sex/gender of the other.

See the semantical circles? Your defining gender by gender.

When one is male, one is not female. The two are mutually exclusive, in the same person. The two can join together in some ways, such as to create another person, and the two can also learn to know what the other is thinking, but a male is not and never will be a female, nor will a female ever be a male person. It's totally impossible.

If you're a male, at your most basic level, then you will always be a male, and never a female.

"Our pre-mortal spirits were automobiles."

"What does it mean to say a spirit is an automobile?"

"It means that they were cars."

"Well then what does it mean to say they were cars?"

"It means they are automobiles."

"Semantic circles! What is mean to say that our premortal spirits were automobiles?"

"It means they were either sedans or sport cars."

"How do you tell the difference?"

"Well a spirit sedan is a sedan and a spirit sports car is a spirit car that is sporty."

"What does that even mean?"

"It means that a spirit sedan is not a sport car and and that a spirit sport car is not a sedan."

"You're not saying anything."

"Yes I am. I'm saying that at the most fundamental level if a premortal spirit is a sedan it will always be a sedan, and never a sports car."

[Ahab]

See the semantical circles? Your defining gender by gender.

Close, but not quite. I'm defining a gender by comparing it to another and opposite gender of the same species.

A male is the opposite sex/gender of a female of the same species, and vice versa for a female.

That may not tell you EVERYTHING you'd like to know about a particular sex/gender, but it does tell you something.

For example, whatever you are, whether you are male or female, you are not the opposite gender, and you never will be.

And FYI, you can know what one gender is like by knowing what gender YOU are, whatever gender you are, so you should know at least something about one gender.

[Jason]

You are writing a paper about the spirit and the proclamation to the family? What school is this for? How will you address hermaphrodites in this argument?

I suggest you use "Attention hermaphrodites! This is my argument."

[the narrator]

Close, but not quite. I'm defining a gender by comparing it to another and opposite gender of the same species.

A male is the opposite sex/gender of a female of the same species, and vice versa for a female.

That may not tell you EVERYTHING you'd like to know about a particular sex/gender, but it does tell you something.

For example, whatever you are, whether you are male or female, you are not the opposite gender, and you never will be.

And FYI, you can know what one gender is like by knowing what gender YOU are, whatever gender you are, so you should know at least something about one gender.

See the rest of my previous comment to see why this is non-sense. If you can't see it, then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your mind is focused on the other threads/fronts you are fighting.