What is an "apostate"?

[the narrator]

I see this word thrown around over and over, but am not quite sure about how it is being used.

Is there a difference between an apostate and a former and non-believing Mormon?

Can one criticize the Church, leaders, history, theology, without being accused of being an apostate?

[Uncle Dale]

I see this word thrown around over and over, but am not quite sure about how it is being used.

Is there a difference between an apostate and a former and non-believing Mormon?

Can one criticize the Church, leaders, history, theology, without being accused of being an apostate?

We had this question come up in another thread -- in which the trend

of the answers seemed to be that apostasy=meanness or a vile attitude.

I thought I scored it fairly well, in the simple illustration of

Brigham portraying Emma Hale Smith as an apostate -- but some

folks didn't see it that way.

If I can deny that Brigham Young was a true prophet, and simultaneously

quote from the revelations of Joseph Smith III, as the word of God,

I'd think that somebody would have the clarity of thought to notice

that such stuff was an apostasy from Mormon doctrine.

But perhaps not.

Perhaps the so-called "Great Apostasy" went on for many hundreds

of years, with no apostates preaching Great & Abominable doctrines.

Seems that the LDS Urban Dictionary is in the process of a re-write.

UD

.

[Scott Lloyd]

I see this word thrown around over and over, but am not quite sure about how it is being used.

Is there a difference between an apostate and a former and non-believing Mormon?

Can one criticize the Church, leaders, history, theology, without being accused of being an apostate?

It is derived from apostasy , which means "an abandoning of what one has believed in, as a faith, cause or principles." Ergo, one who has once embraced Mormonism but now rejects it is, by definition, an apostate from Mormonism. To use another form of the word, he/she has apostatized (not "apostacized") from Mormonism.

Of course, the term would not apply to an unbeliever who has never accepted Mormonism in the first place.

[mfbukowski]

Why is it an important question?

It would only be important if it were taken as a derogatory term I suppose.

Technically I suppose it would apply to one who had a disciplinary council for "apostasy" and was excommunicated. Routinely these are only done for those who have formally joined another church or who have taken on active opposition to the church.

The judgment would be made based on individual circumstances, by the disciplinary council, so no blanket definition can be given other than those I have stated.

[Scott Lloyd]

Perhaps the so-called "Great Apostasy" went on for many hundreds

of years, with no apostates preaching Great & Abominable doctrines.

Seems that the LDS Urban Dictionary is in the process of a re-write.

How so?

There has long been a differentiation in LDS thought between individual apostasy and general apostasy, the latter denoting the loss of truth and priesthood authority that transpired within the first two centuries after the death of Christ.

I don't think any definitions are being rewritten as pertaining to that.

[Scott Lloyd]

Why is it an important question?

It would only be important if it were taken as a derogatory term I suppose.

Technically I suppose it would apply to one who had a disciplinary council for "apostasy" and was excommunicated. Routinely these are only done for those who have formally joined another church or who have taken on active opposition to the church.

The judgment would be made based on individual circumstances, by the disciplinary council, so no blanket definition can be given other than those I have stated.

If you're saying one cannot be considered apostate unless he has formally been declared so by a disciplinary council, I would take exception.

[Uncle Dale]

...

I don't think any definitions are being rewritten as pertaining to that.

Good -- then this fellow is still listed on the official LDS tabulation?

Julian the Apostate (355-360)

a.k.a. Flavius Claudius Julianus

UD

[Darth J]

Deleted. Do not post copyrighted material.

[Darth J]

How about practicing plural marriage prior to the Church officially discontinuing the practice, but practicing plural marriage contrary to the requirements the Lord gave in Doctrine and Covenants 132?

Is that apostasy?

[Scott Lloyd]

Church Handbook of Instructions

Book 1

Stake Presidencies and Bishoprics

Pages 94-95

Apostasy

As used here, apostasy refers to members who:

1. Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its

leaders.

Page 95

2. Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after

they have been corrected by their bishops or higher authority

3. Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those that advocate plural

marriage) after being corrected by their bishop or higher authority.

How about a General Authority teaching things as if those things were doctrine, which later generations of apologists decide are not church doctrtine?

Is that General Authority apostate?

Well now, if he had not been "corrected ... by higher authority," (i.e., confronted by the authority and told personally to stop teaching the erroneous doctrine) the definition you quote here would not apply, would it?

[Darth J]

How about knowingly and deliberately engaging in business practices that are contrary to official teachings of the Church?

Is that apostasy?

[Scott Lloyd]

How about knowingly and deliberately engaging in business practices that are contrary to official teachings of the Church?

Is that apostasy?

Apostasy entails rejecting, not merely disobeying, such teachings.

[Uncle Dale]

Apostasy entails rejecting, not merely disobeying, such teachings.

So was Marcion of Sinope an apostate from the One True Church?

Was Lucy Mack Smith an apostate for following J. J. Strang,

or for later supporting the Presidency of her son William?

Was Amasa Lyman, or Sidney Rigdon or David Whitmer an apostate?

UD

.

[Darth J]

Well now, if he had not been "corrected ... by higher authority," (i.e., confronted by the authority and told personally to stop teaching the erroneous doctrine) the definition you quote here would not apply, would it?

But you said earlier that a disciplinary counsel isn't required for someone to be apostate.

So now that you are back to the legalistic definition, then I am not apostate if I have my family put on their temple clothing and pray to Heavenly Mother for family home evening, so long as I am not told by a priesthood authority to stop doing it.

Or am I apostate regardless of official church discipline, as you said earlier?

EDIT: fixed a typo.

[Darth J]

Apostasy entails rejecting, not merely disobeying, such teachings.

If I knowingly and deliberately disobey official church teachings in my business practices, am I not rejecting those teachings?

[Skywalker]

If I knowingly and deliberately disobey official church teachings in my business practices, am I not rejecting those teachings?

Well, were you corrected or counseled by a Bishop or Stake President?

[Darth J]

How about practicing plural marriage prior to the Church officially discontinuing the practice, but practicing plural marriage contrary to the requirements the Lord gave in Doctrine and Covenants 132?

Is that apostasy?

Why didn't you address this one, Scott?

[why me]

Church Handbook of Instructions

Book 1

Stake Presidencies and Bishoprics

Pages 94-95

Apostasy

As used here, apostasy refers to members who:

1. Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its

leaders.

Page 95

2. Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after

they have been corrected by their bishops or higher authority

3. Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those that advocate plural

marriage) after being corrected by their bishop or higher authority.

Thank you because this supports my understanding and why I called the former mormons now catholics on the catholic apologetic site apostates. They openly mock and show disdain toward the lds church and use inciteful language against the lds church.

However, I do not remember emma openly attacking the lds church when she stayed in the nauvoo era. No where did she claim the lds church false nor her husband a false prophet.

[Uncle Dale]

...

claim the lds church false...

Good Lord, man!

She was there at Amboy on April 6, 1860

literally anointing her son President of the Church.

If that is not apostasy, have your wife try the same

action with your own son, and see what happens to her.

UD

[why me]

So was Marcion of Sinope an apostate from the One True Church?

Was Lucy Mack Smith an apostate for following J. J. Strang,

or for later supporting the Presidency of her son William?

Was Amasa Lyman, or Sidney Rigdon or David Whitmer an apostate?

UD

.

It would depend on how they treated the lds church. If they were attempting to lead people away and if they were using inciteful language to stir up the mobs, well, yes, they were apostate. However if they left the lds church because they were confused and went in peace, well, I would say that they suffered from confusion.

However dale, both sidney and david bore their testimonies to their friends and families as they were about to face their maker. I believe that they did this to make things okay or right in the eyes of god.

[Darth J]

Well, were you corrected or counseled by a Bishop or Stake President?

When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy.

Gospel Library

Gospel Topics: Apostasy

So say I have not been corrected by priesthood leaders, but I still turn away from the principles of the gospel as taught in official church curriculum in my business practices. Am I apostate if I knowingly and deliberately ignore official church teachings because it would be good for business if I disobey the Church's teachings?

[Uncle Dale]

Marcion.......left the lds church... confused and went in peace

...

That does not compute.

UD

[Darth J]

Thank you because this supports my understanding and why I called the former mormons now catholics on the catholic apologetic site apostates. They openly mock and show disdain toward the lds church and use inciteful language against the lds church.

However, I do not remember emma openly attacking the lds church when she stayed in the nauvoo era. No where did she claim the lds church false nor her husband a false prophet.

That's fine, but my question was about teaching things as if they were doctrine which are not church doctrine.

Is a General Authority apostate if he teaches things as if they were doctrine but are merely his opinion?

If a higher authority does not correct him---if we're talking about the Handbook of Instructions standard---does this mean that higher authorities are consenting to him teachings his own speculation as if it were doctrine?

[why me]

Good Lord, man!

She was there at Amboy on April 6, 1860

literally anointing her son President of the Church.

If that is not apostasy, have your wife try the same

action with your own son, and see what happens to her.

UD

Let me put it this way: Emma may not have been in her right mind when we see just what she had been through. If I were to put myself in her shoes with all the violence against her and Joseph Smith and the murder of two men that she loved as husband and brother, Well, I can forgive emma. But I can place blame on the mobs and so called christians who acted violently toward the lds. And we need to remember she lost a child to the cold after the mobs stormed her home and dragged JS out into the street.

I can make allowances for emma.

[Scott Lloyd]

But you said earlier that a disciplinary counsel isn't required for someone to be apostate.

Not in a broader sense of the term.

So now that you are back to the legalistic definition, ...

No, I'm rejecting your implied premise that merely being mistaken or speaking with limited understanding amounts to apostasy.