What is an "apostate"?

[Skywalker]

Regarding this question:

For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.

Doctrine and Covenants 3:4

And?

[Darth J]

So which one of these conditions would your scenario fall under?

Although I am the one who brought up the HOI, I am using that as an example of apostasy, not as all-encompassing of apostasy.

So I don't think that rejecting the teachings of the Church because those teachings conflict with your business interests is answered by the HOI alone.

In all ages of time, why have so many people rejected or ignored prophets

[Darth J]

And?

And the Doctrine and Covenants says that even someone who receives revelations but disregards the counsels of God for his carnal desires is going to have a problem. Is rejecting the counsels of God to follow carnal desires not what apostasy is?

EDIT: Soundbite from Marion G. Romney:

In each gospel dispensation, men have rejected the gospel and as a consequence have sunk into apostasy, debauchery, and darkness.

[Skywalker]

And the Doctrine and Covenants says that even someone who receives revelations but disregards the counsels of God for his carnal desires is going to have a problem. Is rejecting the counsels of God to follow carnal desires not what apostasy is?

EDIT: Soundbite from Marion G. Romney:

In each gospel dispensation, men have rejected the gospel and as a consequence have sunk into apostasy, debauchery, and darkness.

Well did they receive valid revelation for their stewardship?

[Skylla]

Darth J: Stop badgering.

Skylla

[Daniel Peterson]

I haven't read through the thread, and perhaps somebody's already brought this up, but, in case nobody has, I will. I think it's potentially relevant to a definition:

Etymologically, the word apostate/apostasy comes from the Greek ????????? [apostas

[Darth J]

Well did they receive valid revelation for their stewardship?

I'll give you a hypothetical.

To promote our health and happiness, the Lord created all things of the earth for us to use and benefit from. They are to

[Darth J]

Darth J: Stop badgering.

Skylla

Where specifically was I badgering someone? Scott Lloyd claimed to have answered my questions ("asked and answered rule"). Where did he do this?

Since you are here, can I assume that you will also enforce the board rules vis-a-vis my CFR to Scott Lloyd about where his substantive answers are?

[Skywalker]

I'll give you a hypothetical.

To promote our health and happiness, the Lord created all things of the earth for us to use and benefit from. They are to

[Darth J]

Yes, if you've been counseled by a Bishop or Stake President not to.

Okay. Then is the Church engaging in an apostate practice by operating the business I described?

Tending the flock

By Carrie A. Moore

Deseret News religion editor

Published: Monday, July 10, 2000 9:42 a.m. MDT

ELBERTA, Utah County

[Daniel Peterson]

LOL. Darth J seems to have worked long and hard to spring his trap. But it seems a pretty ineffective one.

If there's any evidence in the article that the "harvest" of wildlife it speaks of is typically "wasted," I guess I missed it.

I'm guessing, too, that most of the hunters eat what they kill, and I can't recall anything that says that Mormons have to eat their meat live.

Moreover, as most wildlife biologists will readily tell you, regulated hunting helps to preserve an optimum wildlife population and to prevent both destruction of crops and starvation of animals.

I say this as somebody who grew up in a family very oriented to guns and hunting -- and to eating what was killed -- but eventually chose not to continue in the tradition.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The reality is that we are all apostate to some degree or another. I guess a "real" apostate is one that has completely stopped trying and even fights against the church.

[Scott Lloyd]

LOL. Darth J seems to have worked long and hard to spring his trap. But it seems a pretty ineffective one.

If there's any evidence in the article that the "harvest" of wildlife it speaks of is typically "wasted," I guess I missed it.

I'm guessing, too, that most of the hunters eat what they kill, and I can't recall anything that says that Mormons have to eat their meat live.

Moreover, as most wildlife biologists will readily tell you, regulated hunting helps to preserve an optimum wildlife population and to prevent both destruction of crops and starvation of animals.

I say this as somebody who grew up in a family very oriented to guns and hunting -- and to eating what was killed -- but eventually chose not to continue in the tradition.

So that's where this was all headed? I got bored waiting for Darth J to get to his point. Now, like you, I see it was much ado about nothing.

[so-so saint]

Based on the Church Handbook of Instruction definition of "apostacy," would posting on a message board (repeatedly, let's say) that one no longer believes in the church or points out perceived faults of the church, etc, constitute "Repeatedly act[ing] in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders?"

[Scott Lloyd]

The reality is that we are all apostate to some degree or another. I guess a "real" apostate is one that has completely stopped trying and even fights against the church.

Again, I don't accept the notion that disobedience in an of itself necessarily amounts to apostasy.

[Darth J]

LOL. Darth J seems to have worked long and hard to spring his trap. But it seems a pretty ineffective one.

I see. If someone is wondering about the Church applying its own standards to itself, it's a "trap." As soon as you're able to reconcile this with D&C 49 and 89, let me know.

If there's any evidence in the article that the "harvest" of wildlife it speaks of is typically "wasted," I guess I missed it.

Are you suggesting that white collar professionals who pay fees that are cost-prohibitive to most people (as the Deseret News acknowledges) are doing it because they need the meat?

Even when the missionary who works there specifically refers to it as recreation, and compares it to camping?

I'm guessing, too, that most of the hunters eat what they kill,

You're guessing. Do you know? Do you have a reference you could share where the Church requires people hunting on its reserves to eat what they kill?

and I can't recall anything that says that Mormons have to eat their meat live.

I don't recall this statement being remotely related to anything. But I do recall this:

Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine

D&C 89:12-13

And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.

D&C 49:21

Are white collar professionals paying large amounts of money to hunt for recreation doing it because they really need the meat?

Moreover, as most wildlife biologists will readily tell you, regulated hunting helps to preserve an optimum wildlife population and to prevent both destruction of crops and starvation of animals.

Irrelevant. The article is talking about the Church running commercial operations, not sending people out in the wild to cull the herd. Do you have some information that the Church is doing this to control wildlife population? Is there anything in the article that would justify that inference?

I say this as somebody who grew up in a family very oriented to guns and hunting -- and to eating what was killed -- but eventually chose not to continue in the tradition.

Did your family wait for years to spend $1,500 or more on an exclusive permit to hunt in an area specifically developed for commercial interests? Were the white collar professionals discussed in the article unable to afford some steaks down at the grocery store, thus compelling them to seek another food source?

As to the OP, these questions are entirely relevant. If God has said something and those words are rejected, is that not apostasy, regardless of who is doing it?

[Darth J]

So that's where this was all headed? I got bored waiting for Darth J to get to his point. Now, like you, I see it was much ado about nothing.

So you also are unable to reconcile the Church's business practices with the scriptures?

What about my other questions? Do you have any answers, or are you going to get a moderator to come tell me to stop "badgering" you again?

[Darth J]

Based on the Church Handbook of Instruction definition of "apostacy," would posting on a message board (repeatedly, let's say) that one no longer believes in the church or points out perceived faults of the church, etc, constitute "Repeatedly act[ing] in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders?"

If you're going by the HOI standard, then it would mean I would have had to have been counseled by a priesthood leader to stop, That has not happened.

But where in this thread did I act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church? How is my asking why the Church does not apply its own standards to itself "apostasy"?

And the hunting reserve thing isn't the only question I asked. I presented one example about my business practices question. All I'm asking is if someone can explain why the Church disregarding scriptural teachings is not apostate.

[Darth J]

Again, I don't accept the notion that disobedience in an of itself necessarily amounts to apostasy.

All right. Besides what you accept, what does the Church teach about the relationship between rejecting prophetic counsel and apostasy?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Again, I don't accept the notion that disobedience in an of itself necessarily amounts to apostasy.

Hmmm, ok, I think I can see both sides of the issue. See for me when I go see an R rated movie is that not a type of open rebellion? Now I am not arguing that it is hugely serious.

What is disobedience?

I have just learned that there are degrees or levels to everything in life. I think it applies here. I know you disagree that is fine. I just wanted to share my view.

[Uncle Dale]

...I see it was much ado about nothing.

So, now that you are finished up with that "nothingness"

will you condescend to grant us some real-life, flesh and blood

examples of "apostates?"

If you can here communicate the mind and will of God, then pray

tell us whom God has judged to be in apostasy from the true Gospel?

I think it reasonable to ask for a list of 50 such names, from,

say, the year 100 C.E. down to 1847.

But, I assume that you will ignore any mention of earlier "apostates"

and focus narrowly on examples from Mike Quinn on down to today.

Can you even provide that much?

UD

.

[Darth J]

Hmmm, ok, I think I can see both sides of the issue. See for me when I go see an R rated movie is that not a type of open rebellion? Now I am not arguing that it is hugely serious.

What is disobedience?

I have just learned that there are degrees or levels to everything in life. I think it applies here. I know you disagree that is fine. I just wanted to share my view.

Maybe addressing the relationship between disobedience and apostasy could be enlightened by some counsel from church leaders. Like Elder David A. Bednar:

Sister Bednar and I are acquainted with a returned missionary who had dated a special young woman for a period of time. He cared for her very much, and he was desirous of making his relationship with her more serious. He was considering and hoping for engagement and marriage. This relationship was developing during the time that President Hinckley counseled the Relief Society sisters and young women of the Church to wear only one earring in each ear.

The young man waited patiently over a period of time for the young woman to remove her extra earrings, but she did not take them out. This was a valuable piece of information for this young man, and he felt unsettled about her nonresponsiveness to a prophet

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Maybe addressing the relationship between disobedience and apostasy could be enlightened by some counsel from church leaders. Like Elder David A. Bednar:

Sister Bednar and I are acquainted with a returned missionary who had dated a special young woman for a period of time. He cared for her very much, and he was desirous of making his relationship with her more serious. He was considering and hoping for engagement and marriage. This relationship was developing during the time that President Hinckley counseled the Relief Society sisters and young women of the Church to wear only one earring in each ear.

The young man waited patiently over a period of time for the young woman to remove her extra earrings, but she did not take them out. This was a valuable piece of information for this young man, and he felt unsettled about her nonresponsiveness to a prophet

[Skywalker]

Okay. Then is the Church engaging in an apostate practice by operating the business I described?

Tending the flock

By Carrie A. Moore

Deseret News religion editor

Published: Monday, July 10, 2000 9:42 a.m. MDT

ELBERTA, Utah County

[Darth J]

Well now, if he had not been "corrected ... by higher authority," (i.e., confronted by the authority and told personally to stop teaching the erroneous doctrine) the definition you quote here would not apply, would it?

Elder Orson Pratt of the Quorum of the Twelve publicly criticized Brigham Young's teachings about the relationship between Adam and God the Father. The FAIR wiki links to an article discussing those debates (footnote 4 on the wiki entry).

While some people dispute whether Brigham Young actually taught the Adam-God theory, many have acknowledged that he did teach this. This is from the FAIR wiki again, quoting Elder Bruce R. McConkie:

Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the [polygamous] cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel. But, be it known, Brigham Young also taught accurately and correctly, the status and position of Adam in the eternal scheme of things. What I am saying is that Brigham Young, contradicted Brigham Young, and the issue becomes one of which Brigham Young we will believe. The answer is we will believe the expressions that accord with the teachings in the Standard Works.

Here's a summary of the dispute from Wikipedia:

However, some other prominent members of the church took issue with the doctrine. Most significantly, apostle and philosopher Orson Pratt disagreed with the doctrine, and expressed that disagreement publicly

and in private meetings with other apostles.

Pratt also published his disagreement in his East-coast publication The Seer.

Since the idea that Adam and God the Father are the same person contradicts the Standard Works, was Brigham Young apostate for teaching this? Or was Orson Pratt apostate for publicly disputing the teachings of a higher priesthood authority, since President Young was the prophet and Elder Pratt was an apostle?