What is an "apostate"?

[Darth J]

You, Darth J, are just one poster in a sea of posters on your main forum. I don't necessarily think you are expressing bigotry in this particular thread, but you are certainly trying to spring a trap.

I don't know why everyone is calling this a trap. I threw the hunting preserve thing out as one example regarding one of my questions about apostasy. In what way is trying to reconcile the Church's teachings with real world examples "springing a trap?"

Premise 1: The Church farms are managed by the Farm Management arm of the Church for the purpose of growing grains and raising animals in order to feed the hungry and the poor.

Premise 2: The wildlife preserves, which are also owed by the Church and managed by Farm Management (a Church subsidy).

Conclusion: Both the Church farms and wildlife preserves serve the fourth mission of the church, which is giving aid to those in need.

Oxygendam, let me help you a little here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_four_terms

You haven't brought in any evidence yet that the hunting preserves are there to give aid to those in need. You're still just supposing this.

You brought it up, not me. I assume that they hunt the animals, and take home the meat. The meat they don't want is donated to the Bishop's Storehouse.

Leaving still unresolved the following:

1. Reconciling the Church's teachings about killing animals for more meat when it is not a time of need.

2. There is still no evidence for seriously believing that someone who has been on a waiting list to pay a large amount of money to hunt for recreation is there to donate the meat to the bishop's storehouse.

Who are you to determine whether someone is in need of the meat or not? Simply because they are wealthy, white collar hunters?

It's not just in need of meat; it's in need of food. Go read what I quoted earlier from the D&C, President Kimball, President Benson, and church manuals.

Can you prove that they are not giving the meat to someone who does need it?

Are you sure that Spock is the best avatar for you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof

Can you prove that they don't come from a place where meat is more scarce?

Besides the negative proof problem in your question, again, it's not just in need of meat; it's in need of food. Go read what I quoted earlier from the D&C, President Kimball, President Benson, and church manuals.

Remember, the Lord said in a revelation that it is pleasing to him that meat should be eaten sparingly. Church leaders have reiterated and expounded on that principle.

Entities which are owned by the church are involved in various types of investing, yes. That is my speculation. So what?

You are confusing where the revenue comes from with where the revenue goes.

I am sure you could find out, if you contacted the Church. As it stands now, I don't really care to find out. It doesn't interest me in the slightest.

Good luck with the former. As to the latter, that's fine.

[Darth J]

I wasn't asking for your opinion,

And I didn't give one. There is nothing I have ever seen you post that isn't ultimately, "the Church is true, and nothing else really matters."

I made a CFR (surely, even you can understand the difference, or am I asking too much?).

And, I take your conspicuous silence as a tacit admission that you failed the test and thus proved your denial to be inane on at least two accounts. Nice going.

Post #84:

Some of the quibbling over this fairly uncontroversial word is beyond silly. It puts the nonsense over the words "Christian" and "Ani-Mormon" to shame, and sinks to the subterrainin level of word-nazism. From what I have observed, for the most zealous participant(s) on this thread it isn't about advancing human understanging, but a lame "gotcha". What a waste of time.

EDIT: Post #149:

I would hope that the increase in illumination and understanding will be focused less on words or symbols, and more on that which the words symbolize. I believe we are better served by disengaging from semantic debates and wars over words, and employing our energies instead in improving ourselves and the human condition--in both a physical and spiritual sense, healing the sick and afflicted, clothing the naked and feeding hungry and caring for the poor. That is really what the restored gospel is all about.

So the OP is itself a waste of time, as is any further discussion. You did not address the OP or say what "this fairly uncontroversial word" means, which is interesting since the claims that I'm "setting a trap" by asking people here who frequently use the word "apostate" to apply it to specific hypotheticals show that "apostate" is in fact a controversial term.

In other words, none of this matters........because the Church is true, and anything that distracts from that should be put on the shelf.

That's interesting...yet you have repeatedly attempted to, in your own twisted way, tell me what I have said. I will take this as a tacit admission (your last mistaken sentence being a case in point) that you don't know what you are talking about in regards to what I have said...and I couldn't agree more.

Here's what you've said in this thread:

1. It doesn't matter.

2. My behavior is insipid.

3. World record for variations on the word "inane" in a single thread.

4. Badgering me with ad hominem attacks. (And look how quickly Skylla swooped down and told you to stop it. I'm so glad we have moderators to enforce board rules.)

In hopes of saving you some unwitting embarrassment, the next time you make the claim that "I don't know what rings true in the alternate dimension you live in", it would help if in the next paragraph you didn't diametrically contradict yourself by claiming you are sure of what is going on in my mind or heart. But, then, what's a little embarrasment when your posts are awash with it.

So, Wade.......how about that apostasy thing, huh? You know----the subject of this thread.

I'm not surprized that you would confuse "my playing your game" with "You're really good at addressing the issues". Seems you are bent (whether consciously intending or not) on setting the record for the most inane statements in a single thread. Truth be told, you already took that prize several pages back, and have now put it beyond anyone elses reach.

Thanks for clearing that up. My questions about apostasy have all been competently and intelligently addressed now.

It is at least consistent that you would make this false insinuation given your auto-biography HERE.

7 ways to know someone is losing an online debate

1) The person reverts to ad hominem fallacies. Ad hominem attacks question the validity of an argument based on an irrelevant characteristic of the person advocating the premise. This one is pretty obvious. For example, if I am having a debate with someone about the President (who I wish the best for and support in general, though have some differences in thought on some policies) and they have to revert to discussing my race or gender, or infer that I support him because of race, the conversation is over. What has surprised me is that generally intelligent and educated people have made such assertions...not the usual internet trolls. I remind them that I also voted for Gore and Kerry, who are very much White. I vote based on beliefs and that most closely match mine, and even in smaller elections, I tend to vote for candidates registered as Democrat or Independent.

However, I am starting to lose interest since you are such an easy target for your own game.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

But you never had any interest in the OP to begin with. Remember what you said in post #84? Why are you even here if you think the OP is so silly and pointless?

You're welcome, -Darth J-

[Darth J]

healing the sick and afflicted, clothing the naked and feeding hungry and caring for the poor. That is really what the restored gospel is all about.

How about losing sight of these things and getting caught up in activities that do not seem to pertain to what "the restored gospel is really all about"? Is that apostasy?

[Skywalker]

I don't know why everyone is calling this a trap. I threw the hunting preserve thing out as one example regarding one of my questions about apostasy. In what way is trying to reconcile the Church's teachings with real world examples "springing a trap?"

It seems like the purpose of this thread was to discuss the wildlife preserve. I know you threw it out there as one example, but it is the example that you and everyone else are focusing on.

Oxygendam, let me help you a little here: http://en.wikipedia....y_of_four_terms

You haven't brought in any evidence yet that the hunting preserves are there to give aid to those in need. You're still just supposing this.

I am willing to admit when I've only supposed something. But I suppose it because it makes sense to me. I don't always see the negative side of things that the Church does. I believe that they follow the four-fold mission in every activity they are involved in, therefore I accept that there is a suitable reason for this hunting preserve, and that is enough for me. It should be enough for you as well.

Leaving still unresolved the following:

1. Reconciling the Church's teachings about killing animals for more meat when it is not a time of need.

2. There is still no evidence for seriously believing that someone who has been on a waiting list to pay a large amount of money to hunt for recreation is there to donate the meat to the bishop's storehouse.

Re: #2, we don't know the intentions of the hunters. Some hunting enthusiasts that I know love the sport, but don't like the meat, so they give it to those in need after their expeditions. It seems likely that, either these white collar hunters use the meat, or give it to the needy. It's really not that big of a deal to most Latter-day saints. It is only a big deal to those who only look for the negative in things.

Are you sure that Spock is the best avatar for you? http://en.wikipedia..../Negative_proof

Okay, it's never been proven that the hunters do not give their meat to the needy or the Church, and its never been proven that they do. We simply cannot know their intentions. Again, it doesn't bother me, and it shouldn't bother you.

You are confusing where the revenue comes from with where the revenue goes.

I am not sure what you mean here. Revenue comes from real estate and other investments of the Church. Some of it then goes back into more real estate investments, like City Creek. What's the problem?

Good luck with the former.

Good luck getting uncle Sam to tell you where every cent of your tax money is going, too.

[rockslider]

Might it also help to understand that for many of us LDS, and the Church leaders in particular, our concern isn't with the exacting usage of the word "apostate", but rather about the state of the souls to which the word may reasonably apply?

That's exactly my feeling about our multi-generational "Wisconsin Apostate" UD, poor bugger does not have a chance!

[Uncle Dale]

...

poor bugger does not have a chance!

...

gulp!!!

UD

[wenglund]

And I didn't give one. There is nothing I have ever seen you post that isn't ultimately, "the Church is true, and nothing else really matters."

Post #84:

Some of the quibbling over this fairly uncontroversial word is beyond silly. It puts the nonsense over the words "Christian" and "Ani-Mormon" to shame, and sinks to the subterrainin level of word-nazism. From what I have observed, for the most zealous participant(s) on this thread it isn't about advancing human understanging, but a lame "gotcha". What a waste of time.

EDIT: Post #149:

I would hope that the increase in illumination and understanding will be focused less on words or symbols, and more on that which the words symbolize. I believe we are better served by disengaging from semantic debates and wars over words, and employing our energies instead in improving ourselves and the human condition--in both a physical and spiritual sense, healing the sick and afflicted, clothing the naked and feeding hungry and caring for the poor. That is really what the restored gospel is all about.

So the OP is itself a waste of time, as is any further discussion. You did not address the OP or say what "this fairly uncontroversial word" means, which is interesting since the claims that I'm "setting a trap" by asking people here who frequently use the word "apostate" to apply it to specific hypotheticals show that "apostate" is in fact a controversial term.

In other words, none of this matters........because the Church is true, and anything that distracts from that should be put on the shelf.

Here's what you've said in this thread:

1. It doesn't matter.

2. My behavior is insipid.

3. World record for variations on the word "inane" in a single thread.

4. Badgering me with ad hominem attacks. (And look how quickly Skylla swooped down and told you to stop it. I'm so glad we have moderators to enforce board rules.)

So, Wade.......how about that apostasy thing, huh? You know----the subject of this thread.

Thanks for clearing that up. My questions about apostasy have all been competently and intelligently addressed now.

7 ways to know someone is losing an online debate

1) The person reverts to ad hominem fallacies. Ad hominem attacks question the validity of an argument based on an irrelevant characteristic of the person advocating the premise. This one is pretty obvious. For example, if I am having a debate with someone about the President (who I wish the best for and support in general, though have some differences in thought on some policies) and they have to revert to discussing my race or gender, or infer that I support him because of race, the conversation is over. What has surprised me is that generally intelligent and educated people have made such assertions...not the usual internet trolls. I remind them that I also voted for Gore and Kerry, who are very much White. I vote based on beliefs and that most closely match mine, and even in smaller elections, I tend to vote for candidates registered as Democrat or Independent.

But you never had any interest in the OP to begin with. Remember what you said in post #84? Why are you even here if you think the OP is so silly and pointless?

You're welcome, -Darth J-

Good points all around. Nicely done. Congratulations...you are the winner!!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

How about losing sight of these things and getting caught up in activities that do not seem to pertain to what "the restored gospel is really all about"? Is that apostasy?

As intimated earlier, it doesn't matter to me whether it fits that label or not. What I deem worthy of consideration is regaining sight of those things.

But, you are free to think otherwise.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-