Mormonism and the United Firm

[rockslider]

I find it psychologically fascinating (hehe I always feel like one of the big boys when I say that), that any TBM would disagree with what David has presented here.

If there comes a fork in the road and I see David taking the left fork, I

[David Bokovoy]

At any rate, I am fairly aware of how the PEF was originally funded.

Funding is a separate issue from "creation." And that's all I'm going to ever say on the topic.

[Avatar4321]

Here's an interesting question:

The Law of Consecration is a Celestial Law

The Mllinial Earth will be Terrestial World.

Will we only be living a Celestial Law on a Terrestrial world? Or is there some Terrestrial law of economy that we don't know about that will also be in play?

[David Bokovoy]

What is the point of this thread? To be vauge? How does that help any of use out?

Please go back and review the thread looking for principles and historical application. This was always the objective and I believe that such principles and the historical application thereof have been set forth with considerable clarity.

[zerinus]

I find it psychologically fascinating (hehe I always feel like one of the big boys when I say that), that any TBM would disagree with what David has presented here.

I am not really sure what he is standing for (or against) to be able to agree or disagree with him.

[David Bokovoy]

I find it psychologically fascinating (hehe I always feel like one of the big boys when I say that), that any TBM would disagree with what David has presented here.

If there comes a fork in the road and I see David taking the left fork, I

[rockslider]

I am not really sure what he is standing for (or against) to be able to agree or disagree with him.

I had to only review the OP before making that statement

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Please go back and review the thread looking for principles and historical application. This was always the objective and I believe that such principles and the historical application thereof have been set forth with considerable clarity.

Yeah so you went into great detail in the OP about "historical patterns and revelations are being applied with considerable success in some third world settings."

I must have missed that.

[WalkerW]

How is it "voluntary" if failure to submit lands you outside the Celestial Kingdom?

Celestial is a spiritual state one becomes through voluntary actions and thoughts. I for one do not think of the different kingdoms as locations similar to countries or planets, but degrees of glory or spiritual states as they are described.

[David Bokovoy]

Yeah so you went into great detail in the OP about "historical patterns and revelations are being applied with considerable success in some third world settings."

I must have missed that.

Look. There's absolutely nothing more superfluous than arguing over the principles of Zion and to the extent that I have allowed myself to get sucked into responding with contention, I have been wrong. I know that the information I have presented from the D&C and the way the Saints of God have historically understood and applied those revelations is difficult for you to accept because it runs counter to your world view. If you want to try to understand my perspective, there's now a lot more to review than simply the OP, but I'm really not interested in bickering over the doctrine of unity.

[Calm]

Note: How is it "voluntary" if failure to submit lands you outside the Celestial Kingdom?

Since in that case you will want what is outside of the CK greater than that which is in, it is voluntary just as deciding which college (in general) one goes to is voluntary based on how much commitment you are willing to give to your academics, how much you are spend on tuition or work for scholarships, etc. The limitations that exist in my analogy are not present when it comes to the CK because the Lord gives full access based on what one can do and what one is willing to accept and do (even if not capable of doing it due to the limitations of mortal life) as well as what one does.

[Doctor Steuss]

Sans the occasional inevitable pitfalls of emotionalism that tends to find its way into topics we are passionate about, I would just like to say that I have really enjoyed this thread.

Mercyngrace,

Some of your comments about the spiritually based philosophical aspects of how you view the application of the LOC have really been eye (and heart) opening for me.

Thank you David for starting this fascinating (and internal retrospection inspiring) thread. Although I believe your primary objective was to focus mainly upon the historical aspects of the LOC, I have been thoroughly spellbound by the

[volgadon]

but I'm really not interested in bickering over the doctrine of unity.

Great way of putting it. Just to lighten the mood a bit, I recommend watching this

[David Bokovoy]

Sans the occasional inevitable pitfalls of emotionalism that tends to find its way into topics we are passionate about, I would just like to say that I have really enjoyed this thread.

Mercyngrace,

Some of your comments about the spiritually based philosophical aspects of how you view the application of the LOC have really been eye (and heart) opening for me.

Thank you David for starting this fascinating (and internal retrospection inspiring) thread. Although I believe your primary objective was to focus mainly upon the historical aspects of the LOC, I have been thoroughly spellbound by the

[mercyngrace]

I'm going to come right out and postulate (based on the fact, among others, that the Church has said it's not a communal life) that the application of the LoC in our society will not involve an initial selling of our property for redistribution. Can you imagine the problems that would cause? Why not remain in your own house? The Church has defined "equal" as not materially equal, but equal according to wants and needs. So what if my family of 9 has a 2700 sq ft house and someone else's family of 9 has a 5000 sq ft house? What would the purpose be to sell both houses and put each family in a 3850 sq ft house other than an antiGospel-like equalization? For some very extreme cases, perhaps a selling off of multiple properties to meet some existing need, but generally there will be no such thing. We are no longer a community of subsistence farmers where such an initial redistribution might make some sense.

I don't see that happening either, BCSpace. I don't think it is about having everything the same simply having enough of what we need and taking care of each other so that there are no poor among us.

What about those with no place to live? The proper application of the LoC in our modern society will simply be an expansion of tithing and fast offerings imho.

Or someone with plenty of space takes them in and shares their home. Families do this for each other all the time already.

Some will be giving more than 10% and alll will be providing other things like physical labor or the resources of companies they own. But all will be living essentially as they are now. Making and saving money, building and amassing capital and resources, and having no one to tell them what or how to do it, succeeding or failing on their own merits. The Bishop will determine needs in the ward and ask everyone for what they can give and they will give.

Or people will simply see a need and fill it.

There will be no taking. People who consistently fail will be have to modify their behavior or be cast out or have their aid reduced, just as it is now.

Absolutely no room for compulsion - I agree.

I do take exception to Will's statement that people won't work for nothing. I used to routinely put 10 hours into my Sunday School lesson and I was an unpaid Seminary teacher for several years, talk about hours and hours of unpaid work!

Having never had the luxury of living in a ward so big that I didn't have at least one calling (in addition to Visiting teaching), I've seen plenty of people work long hours for no material compensation. In fact, I've been in a couple of wards where almost noone was without a calling that demanded several hours a week (again, in addition to VT/HT).

If you've ever seen a ward like this in action, you can easily visualize how the LOC could work among a small community.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Look. There's absolutely nothing more superfluous than arguing over the principles of Zion and to the extent that I have allowed myself to get sucked into responding with contention, I have been wrong. I know that the information I have presented from the D&C and the way the Saints of God have historically understood and applied those revelations is difficult for you to accept because it runs counter to your world view. If you want to try to understand my perspective, there's now a lot more to review than simply the OP, but I'm really not interested in bickering over the doctrine of unity.

You don't know jack about my world view. Don't pretend to know more than you do.

I did not realise that we were bickering over the doctrine of unity. Very well, thanks for the thread, it has been fun.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I do take exception to Will's statement that people won't work for nothing. I used to routinely put 10 hours into my Sunday School lesson and I was an unpaid Seminary teacher for several years, talk about hours and hours of unpaid work!

Were you really unpaid? There are more ways than one to get paid then just getting finanical gain.

I served a mission for 2 years. I did not recieve finacial gain. Why was the mission called the most rewarding 2 years of my life?

[WalkerW]

I do take exception to Will's statement that people won't work for nothing. I used to routinely put 10 hours into my Sunday School lesson and I was an unpaid Seminary teacher for several years, talk about hours and hours of unpaid work!

Having never had the luxury of living in a ward so big that I didn't have at least one calling (in addition to Visiting teaching), I've seen plenty of people work long hours for no material compensation. In fact, I've been in a couple of wards where almost noone was without a calling that demanded several hours a week (again, in addition to VT/HT).

If you've ever seen a ward like this in action, you can easily visualize how the LOC could work among a small community.

This is a great point and demonstrates the radical change that must take place within each individual. It is a worldview and moral structure entered into and bound by covenant and centered on God. That is why I say that all economic systems that lack these two things will inevitably be flawed.

[WalkerW]

Were you really unpaid? There are more ways than one to get paid then just getting finanical gain.

I served a mission for 2 years. I did not recieve finacial gain. Why was the mission called the most rewarding 2 years of my life?

I don't think that is quite what he meant. I think he was mainly speaking to the rooting out of the wordliness often associated with financial gain, not necessarily that financial gain was wrong.

[WalkerW]

Double post

[BCSpace]

Or someone with plenty of space takes them in and shares their home. Families do this for each other all the time already.

Or people will simply see a need and fill it.

Absolutely.

I do take exception to Will's statement that people won't work for nothing. I used to routinely put 10 hours into my Sunday School lesson and I was an unpaid Seminary teacher for several years, talk about hours and hours of unpaid work!

Having never had the luxury of living in a ward so big that I didn't have at least one calling (in addition to Visiting teaching), I've seen plenty of people work long hours for no material compensation. In fact, I've been in a couple of wards where almost noone was without a calling that demanded several hours a week (again, in addition to VT/HT).

If you've ever seen a ward like this in action, you can easily visualize how the LOC could work among a small community.

I have to agree with Will that no one works for nothing. Your example does not correlate because the assumption is that these volunteers are making a living as well whereas what they are volunteering for contributes nothing to that end. To make a living, I expect that someone or something gives me value for my labor and/or invested resources. There is no other way.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't think that is quite what he meant. I think he was mainly speaking to the rooting out of the wordliness often associated with financial gain, not necessarily that financial gain was wrong.

I think I understand that. I was just going on more about what Will might have said. No one will do something for nothing.

Just that most of the time there is a reward of some sort every time we do something. In life nothing is free.

[mercyngrace]

Sans the occasional inevitable pitfalls of emotionalism that tends to find its way into topics we are passionate about, I would just like to say that I have really enjoyed this thread.

Mercyngrace,

Some of your comments about the spiritually based philosophical aspects of how you view the application of the LOC have really been eye (and heart) opening for me.

Thank you David for starting this fascinating (and internal retrospection inspiring) thread. Although I believe your primary objective was to focus mainly upon the historical aspects of the LOC, I have been thoroughly spellbound by the

[Deborah]

Again, I'm not going to discuss this point. It's too politically charged and will violate board rules. We should be able to stick to the topic at hand without exploring these issues.

I wasn

[Nomad]

I threw that Hyrum Andrus quote from Doctrines of the Kingdom for you, Brother. Great stuff!

Best!

Why was Hyrum Andrus censured (actually threatened with excommunication, iirc) for his public teachings?