Mormonism and the United Firm

[mfbukowski]

Is wealth created? If so, how?

I suppose the answer depends on whether or not we are talking about a global society in which the LOC is implemented (the millenium) or a more local, sub-culture of what are still called "Mormons" existing on our own in the larger culture.

If it is the former, I would suppose there would be no need for wealth creation.

If the latter, one can imagine other communal experiments in which certain cottage industries arise which contribute to the larger economy. The Shakers come to mind, as well as others. Perhaps we will transplant Provo to Missouri and all go into the computer business. I think there are many possibilities.

If this occurs in a post-apocalypse context, wealth creation may be a non-issue: the main concern might be an agrarian subsistence level culture.

On the other hand, would the existing wealth of the church be available?

Day trading, anyone? Just joking- please let's not turn this into an "LDS Inc." thread!

[mercyngrace]

Just in case my prior post got lost in the shuffle, here's the link to it: My Questions

Is wealth created? If so, how?

I think it depends on the definition of wealth. If you mean great quantity, I don't know. If you mean abundance such that there is no want, I think yes. As my husband told our kids "We are rich because we have enough and some to share." That wealth - and here's a key phrase, sufficient for our needs - is created by work and possibly by priesthood power.

Must wealth be created by those living the Law of Consecration?

Yes.

How is wealth created within the context of a society living the Law of Consecration?

Industry is essential however I believe that our efforts can be magnified according to our virtue. In a celestial world are there noxious weeds, for example?

[William Schryver]

Is wealth created? If so, how?

I think it depends on the definition of wealth. If you mean great quantity, I don't know. If you mean abundance such that there is no want, I think yes. As my husband told our kids "We are rich because we have enough and some to share." That wealth - and here's a key phrase, sufficient for our needs - is created by work and possibly by priesthood power.

"Wealth" is a great many things. Roads are wealth. Bridges are wealth. A dairy producing milk and cheese is wealth. Wheat growing in a field is wealth. Tractors to till the earth are wealth. Fuel to run the tractors is wealth. Water and the delivery systems constructed to bring it to homes and fields is wealth. Even in our present capitalist society, the vast majority of "wealth" is not personal in terms of who actually holds it.

Incidentally, what does your husband (and you, if applicable) do for a living? Or, in other words, where does your personal "wealth" come from?

How is wealth created within the context of a society living the Law of Consecration?

Industry is essential however I believe that our efforts can be magnified according to our virtue. In a celestial world are there noxious weeds, for example?

How can "virtue" magnify industrial efforts? I don't understand the connection.

And what does the "celestial world" have to do with these questions? We don't live in a celestial world.

Follow-up question to the first set of questions: How do you imagine large-scale transportation systems and other kinds of civilization infrastructure will be constructed in a society living according to the Law of Consecration?

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Will,

First of all, I must confess that I have not read this thread, not even the entire OP (although I did scan through it). So I may very well be missing important elements of the discussion that has already taken place. That said, (and forgive me if this has already been addressed; just point me to where) I do have a few general questions that are always on the list when it comes to the topic of the Law of Consecration and building up of Zion (topics very near and dear to my heart). So, here is my first set of questions:

• 
  
• Is wealth created? If so, how?
  `
  
• Must wealth be created by those living the Law of Consecration?
  `
  
• How is wealth created within the context of a society living the Law of Consecration?
  
  

I am overwhelmingly busy these days with pressing priorities, but I'll try to check back later today or this evening in order to see the progress of the thread.

Riches have been given to man by God. So in the ultimate sense, the Lord is the creator of all wealth. In terms of the Law of Consecration, wealth is generated through unity of individuals and resources. God is one and he invites each of us to become one with him. I agree with the following quote from Elder Orson Pratt:

[rockslider]

Follow-up question to the first set of questions: How do you imagine large-scale transportation systems and other kinds of civilization infrastructure will be constructed in a society living according to the Law of Consecration?

Daymon Smith

[William Schryver]

Hello Will,

Riches have been given to man by God. So in the ultimate sense, the Lord is the creator of all wealth. In terms of the Law of Consecration, wealth is generated through unity of individuals and resources. God is one and he invites each of us to become one with him. I agree with the following quote from Elder Orson Pratt:

[wenglund]

I'm not sure true scarcity would have to exist under the LOC.

Well...it will be interesting to find out some day whether it does or not. At least as I now try and live the LoC (as per my temple covenants), there is scarcity--which I value since it enables me to practice the law of sacrifice.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[William Schryver]

Daymon Smith

[David Bokovoy]

An entirely unsatisfactory reply, for it fails completely as an answer to the questions I posed.

Only because you did not understand the answer.

[rockslider]

The "Church" provided infrastructure? Really? Describe the process whereby the "Church" provided infrastructure. Where did the wealth come from that was marshaled to produce this infrastructure? Who provided the labor? Please describe how the "Church" was able to do such a thing. And if it was an optimal method for providing infrastructure, why did it stop?

BY started by providing a city grid layout, provided schools, coops etc. ... why did it stop ... thats what some want to know

[wenglund]

As I have illustrated throughout this thread, this is not "my" conceptualization. All I have done is quote modern revelation and illustrate the ways the Prophet Joseph and his contemporaries not only conceptualized, but applied these revelations from God.

With all due respect, I think you have also introduced a great deal of your own interpretation of what has been quoted, and filled in gaps with your own understanding. This isn't to suggest that your interpretations and gap-filling are wrong. It's just that there have been not a few occasions on this thread where what you interpreted the quoted statements to mean was different from how I and others interpreted them. And, that is okay as long as we are here to respectfully share differing points of view in hopes of expanding our own understandings, rather than be here to dogmatize and lecture.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Lightbearer]

I wonder if the following would have any bearing on the discussion?

(D&C 134:2) "We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life."

Now I understand that Consecration cannot be fully be placed in effect until the Lord is at the head of the political government, which will not be until the Lord Comes (or shortly before that time). The question is if it is evil to own property, then how can we be blessed for voluntarily giving all that we have to the Lord? I mean if it is not our right to have in the first place? If you want to get philosophical about it, nothing belongs to us, except our agency. Even then God gave us our agency so I suppose we are no more than the dust of the earth after all. But the way I have always viewed consecration was from the standpoint of us all being members of the family of God and we help one another. I think consecration has more to do with our willingness and our attitude than it does with what we actually posses. But I do not believe that this law can or will be established by earthly government not by the United Nations, or the United States, or by Socialism or Communism. I think those who think that is the way it will come about have been deceived and Lucifer will toss them about if they are not careful. It can only be established upon the principles of righteousness and through the authority of the holy priesthood. If it is done in any other way then it is "not of God."

[wenglund]

Only because you did not understand the answer.

I must confess that I didn't understand the answer. Could you please explain in practical terms what you mean by "In terms of the Law of Consecration, wealth is generated through unity of individuals and resources". In other words, could you provide a basic flow-chart of how this unity creates wealth? I am trying to move things in my mind from abstract theory into practice.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[David Bokovoy]

The "Church" provided infrastructure? Really? Describe the process whereby the "Church" provided infrastructure. Where did the wealth come from that was marshaled to produce this infrastructure? Who provided the labor? Please describe how the "Church" was able to do such a thing. And if it was an optimal method for providing infrastructure, why did it stop?

There is absolutely an inspired infrastructure for applying such principles within the Church given by the Prophet Joseph and his immediate successors. Granted the details of such structure will need to change in accordance with individual settings and circumstances, but the inspired plans and principles have most certainly been revealed and even applied throughout the history of the Church. They allowed the Saints to successfully transform the salt flats of Deseret into a productive setting in which the Church and its members could flourish. To begin a study of the inspired infrastructures, I would recommend starting with Lyndon Cook's Joseph Smith and the Law of Consecration which covers the economic structures put in place by the Prophet Joseph from 1831-1844. For the structures put in place by Brigham Young, I would recommend beginning the study with Arrington, Fox, and May's Building the City of God.

The reason that these methods were changed is do to the Americanization of the Church, but that is a politically charged issue that would violate board rules.

[William Schryver]

Only because you did not understand the answer.

It doesn't serve your purpose to wax condescending. Believe me, I understood perfectly why you provided the answer you did, and I understand enough to see that it is because I don't believe you have truly thought through this issue.

Let's take the Pratt quote you cited:

[David Bokovoy]

I must confess that I didn't understand the answer. Could you please explain in practical terms what you mean by "In terms of the Law of Consecration, wealth is generated through unity of individuals and resources". In other words, could you provide a basic flow-chart of how this unity creates wealth? I am trying to move things in my mind from abstract theory into practice.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Getting into specifics of how various economic systems put in place by the Saints successfully generated wealth would take considerable time. Again, I would recommend those interested start with the sources I cited in my previous post. In my mind, one the greatest examples to consider would be the Utah canal systems that allowed the Saints to accomplish something that had never been done before in the history of the world, i.e. provide irrigation in a desert setting for a massive community by means of melted snow.

The reason that my response to Will provides a very appropriate general answer to Will's question is that a unification of time, talents, and property under the direction of the Lord generates wealth and eradicates poverty. I would return to the following quote from my OP that can be directly applied to "wealth." Wealth

[mfbukowski]

An entirely unsatisfactory reply, for it fails completely as an answer to the questions I posed.

Poor Bokovoy!

No gold star for you!

At least you get a reply- I'm heartbroken!

[William Schryver]

There is absolutely an inspired infrastructure for applying such principles within the Church given by the Prophet Joseph and his immediate successors. Granted the details of such structure will need to change in accordance with individual settings and circumstances, but the inspired plans and principles have most certainly been revealed and even applied throughout the history of the Church. They allowed the Saints to successfully transform the salt flats of Deseret into a productive setting in which the Church and its members could flourish. To begin a study of the inspired infrastructures, I would recommend starting with Lyndon Cook's Joseph Smith and the Law of Consecration which covers the economic structures put in place by the Prophet Joseph from 1831-1844. For the structures put in place by Brigham Young, I would recommend beginning the study with Arrington, Fox, and May's Building the City of God.

The reason that these methods were changed is do to the Americanization of the Church, but that is a politically charged issue that would violate board rules.

OK, now we've at least made a baby step towards an answer to the questions I posed.

Let's take what you imagine to be the "Joseph Smith Model" or the "Brigham Young Model" for building the "economic structures" necessary to support a thriving and prosperous population. Let's examine, just for example, the building of railroad spur from Ogden to SLC during the days of Brigham Young. Do you know how it was done? I do. My great-grandfather and his father helped build the road bed through north Davis County. It's there to this day.

Describe how such a thing would be done in the future using either of the models to which you have made reference.

[William Schryver]

Getting into specifics of how various economic systems put in place by the Saints successfully generated wealth would take considerable time. Again, I would recommend those interested start with the sources I cited in my previous post. In my mind, one the greatest examples to consider would be the Utah canal systems that allowed the Saints to accomplish something that had never been done before in the history of the world, i.e. provide irrigation in a desert setting for a massive community by means of melted snow.

The reason that my response to Will provides a very appropriate general answer to Will's question is that a unification of time, talents, and property under the direction of the Lord generates wealth and eradicates poverty. I would return to the following quote from my OP that can be directly applied to "wealth." Wealth

[David Bokovoy]

It doesn't serve your purpose to wax condescending.

I'm sorry if I offend, Will. But you came into a thread implying that you have thought about these issues more than the rest of us, while by your own admission not bothering to read through the previous posts because you didn't have time. Then instead of contributing your thoughts, let alone reading what others had already had to say, you simply presented questions in the hopes of directing the topic of conversation into what you feel are the correct answers to your perspective. To then respond to my statement on the principle of unity as the driving force behind the generation of wealth as "an entirely unsatisfactory reply," let me ask you, Will:

What sort of response were you expecting to the condescension you manifested from the beginning of your appearance?

[BCSpace]

The reason, Droopy, that this doctrine is so important is that within Mormonism, consecration and the abandonment of all private property in a secular sense is directly linked with the doctrine of heirship.

Abandonment of private property is not a concept extant in the LoC.

For legal purposes, the stewardship was private property, even though the stewards themselves understood that it ultimately belonged to God. President Marion G. Romney explained:

[William Schryver]

I suppose the answer depends on whether or not we are talking about a global society in which the LOC is implemented (the millenium) or a more local, sub-culture of what are still called "Mormons" existing on our own in the larger culture.

If it is the former, I would suppose there would be no need for wealth creation.

It is the former. And if you seriously believe there will be "no need for wealth creation," then I can only say that you are mistaken. Grossly mistaken. Without continuous production of more wealth, civilization would cease.

If the latter, one can imagine other communal experiments in which certain cottage industries arise which contribute to the larger economy. The Shakers come to mind, as well as others. Perhaps we will transplant Provo to Missouri and all go into the computer business. I think there are many possibilities.

If this occurs in a post-apocalypse context, wealth creation may be a non-issue: the main concern might be an agrarian subsistence level culture.

The City of Zion will not be functioning at "an agrarian subsistence level."

On the other hand, would the existing wealth of the church be available?

The existing wealth of the church wouldn't last for very long at all if it was not being continually augmented by new wealth.

[Mark Beesley]

What plagues discussion and research regarding the economic system of the Law of Consecration is, frankly, political biases. I have heard Mormon conservatives read into the Book of Mormon some kind of American capitalistic democracy that just isn't there. They are mortified by the fact that the Law of Consecration does involve a redistribution of wealth. However, on the flip side, many liberal-leaning Mormons tend to think that all redistributions of wealth are created equal, which simply isn't the case.

I know of no liberal-leaning LDS Christians who think that Swedish-style socialism is comparable to Soviet Union-style socialism.

Perhaps in one aspect. However, being used to involuntary government redistribution is not the same as being accustomed to voluntary moral structure laid out by divine covenant.

It is a question of attitude, willingness to submit, etc. I sorta liken it to the words of Amulek to the Zoramites in Alma 34:34,

Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

Many say that it will be different when Christ comes, when He institutes a New World Order, and they are surely sincere. But remember the young rich man described in Matthew 19. He seemingly recognized Christ as someone special, calling Him Good Master, but when told that he should sell all he had, give it to the poor, and follow Him, the rich young man went away very sorrowful. Matthew 19:16-22.

Note: How is it "voluntary" if failure to submit lands you outside the Celestial Kingdom?

[rockslider]

My great-grandfather and his father helped build the road bed through north Davis County. It's there to this day.

Were they paid? If so, by who?

[William Schryver]

I'm sorry if I offend, Will. But you came into a thread implying that you have thought about these issues more than the rest of us, while by your own admission not bothering to read through the previous posts because you didn't have time. Then instead of contributing your thoughts, let alone reading what others had already had to say, you simply presented questions in the hopes of directing the topic of conversation into what you feel are the correct answers to your perspective. To then respond to my statement on the principle of unity as the driving force behind the generation of wealth as "an entirely unsatisfactory reply," let me ask you, Will:

What sort of response were you expecting to the condescension you manifested from the beginning of your appearance?

I'm sorry you interpreted my questions as condescending. I can't imagine why you did. They were not intended in that fashion. Not at all. I can only chalk it up to the constant difficulty of interpreting tone via message board.

Nonetheless, they are sincere questions. From what I could see of the previous posts on the thread, those issues had not been addressed. My previous thought and study of this issue is such that I am convinced that these questions must be addressed, otherwise any discussion of the LoC is entirely moot.

I am also convinced that you have not considered them. Frankly (and I don't say this condescendingly) I think your perspective on a society living the Law of Consecration is extremely naive and lacking in terms of its possibilities for practical application. Perhaps I am wrong in making this judgment. Hence my questions.

"Unity" never built a bulldozer. Only bulldozer factories build bulldozers. Assuming bulldozers will be needed in a society living the LoC, how will they be produced?