Mormonism and the United Firm

[Avatar4321]

I'm not convinced that the scriptures tell us we need to give all our things to anyone but God.

And we are under consecration, right now. At least those of us who have made covenants to do so.

Maybe we should focus less on what society will look like when we do it and more on doing what the Lord asks us to do and letting Him do His work.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'm not convinced that the scriptures tell us we need to give all our things to anyone but God.

And we are under consecration, right now. At least those of us who have made covenants to do so.

Maybe we should focus less on what society will look like when we do it and more on doing what the Lord asks us to do and letting Him do His work.

I agree.

[mercyngrace]

but you cannot expect people to give (in some cases take) their money away in the name of mercy,

Reread my post MRSR. I said we don't have expectations of others, only of ourselves (see the bit about King Benjamin being counsel to the giver...)

for that in and of itself is not merciful to the person that earned the money. And they give that money to a guy that is fully capable of working but refuses to do so.

You're still worried about the other guy. Your responsibility doesn't change regardless of his choices. Again, see King Benjamin's speech.

I must ask though, are we in the Celestial Kingdom now? Were are in a telestial kingdom right now, should it be expected to live this higher law and force people (I am talking about the general public) to live it?

Again, reread my post, MSRS. I never suggested this should be compulsory and in fact said it could not work if implemented through external forces. It has to be the desire of the individual to save his brethren without a desire for justice.

Aw, that was a trick question as the gospel is all about agency to choose.

Yes. And I covenanted to live the LOC. It was my choice. Also, I've been on this board long enough that you ought to know I don't pose trick questions. I'm not that good at thinking ahead LOL.

Christ will require that we give all we have, but He will not force us to give it. We will give it freely. That will be another differnce is that we will all be on the same page.

He already requires it and you probably already committed to live the LOC.

I wouldn't say that this is so much the case as knowing that there are evil men who do not do what they say they will do and spend other peoples money unwisely.

Still thinking about how others keep the law rather than how you keep the law. King Benjamin.

You must use wisdom in all things. When the Savoir returns I will gladly give all that I can. Right now, it is not wisdom to do that as people are un-trustworthy. And if you know they are not trustworthy should we still give all of our stuff to them?

What is you met all your family's needs, put some aside for your kids missions, and then donated the rest to fast offerings? You would be living the LOC right now.

MRSR, remember this isn't supposed to be a political thread - we aren't talking about government administration of any programs here. We are talking about each of us individually.

Last week I was chatting with my 20-something niece who was complaining about the beggars where she lives. Appparently, they are plentiful in El Paso. She said (and I almost fell down when she said this) "I was going into the store the other day to get myself a new Nintendo DSi and to pick up an I-pod for Jack (her husband) and this woman was standing there begging at the door. Oh my gosh! They are everywhere! You can't even go to the store anymore." At this point her husband chimed in to say "And they always go on and on about how they don't have any money but they've got their kids in the car and they all looked decently dressed."

Clearly they aren't ready to live the Law of Consecration.

Keep inmind that I don't disagree with a word you are saying. I just think the timeing is wrong to try and impliment this ideaology.

We have several examples of saints living it outside the millenium (Enoch, Nephites, NT, early LDS). I don't think timing is the issue so much as individual righteousness.

[Calm]

Hence, according to the Prophet Joseph Smith

[wenglund]

By definition, can there be an "inheritance" absent personal property?

Will the demand curve and cost/benefit analysis somehow be eliminated under the LoC?

Most importantly, will the general application of the law of obedience be done away with? ("There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated--And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated." see D&C 130:20-21)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

MRSR, remember this isn't supposed to be a political thread - we aren't talking about government administration of any programs here. We are talking about each of us individually.

If this is not about governement administration then you are preaching to the chior.

I have no issue with what anybody has said for it is doctrine. What I have said is to think that we should enact policy based and this particular doctrine. I think that it not wise in today's world. I understand that some people do what they do becuase they think the Gospel teaches that we should have all thing incommon right now and under this current form of government. So they lean left as they think the left is able to fulfill that the best. I am fine with that. Most of my objections come with that view in mind though.

When Christ returns it will be vastly different then today. Try not to mis-understand what I am saying. I am worried for today becuase that is the time with which we live. I want to make sure that my kids have the same oppertunties that I have had. Anyway per the OP's request I don't want to really talk more about this as it will get political.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

We have several examples of saints living it outside the millenium (Enoch, Nephites, NT, early LDS). I don't think timing is the issue so much as individual righteousness.

Nothing recently though. And one of those times was only brought about because the Savior was there and set it up.

It is both a timing issue and an individual rightesouness issue. As there are many wicked people today. Hence the timing is not right. the LoC only works if everyone is on the same page.

Still thinking about how others keep the law rather than how you keep the law. King Benjamin.

Nope. That is not it at all. I brought it up to illustrate a point. I guess you missed it?

He already requires it and you probably already committed to live the LOC.

Well we only commited to live it when called upon to live it. Currently we are not under that obligation. Or did I miss the memo. If so CFR that we are under obligation to currently live the LoC.

[WalkerW]

Another interesting piece that provides historical context is Nathan Oman's unpublished "Property, Contract, and the Market: A Mormon Perspective."

[Calm]

Another thought---why do we want private ownership of things?

If all our needs and desires are fulfilled, does it really matter if the house I am enjoying belongs to me or to the community?

Do I really need to have a fancy telescope or fishing rod all to myself? If it's something I enjoy, wouldn't my enjoyment be increased if I were able to share that enjoyment with others rather than just keeping ti for myself?

Even if in today's world we must have private ownership to be profitable stewards, that does not mean we can't cultivate a celestial attitude to our possessions....whatever that celestial attitude may be, I don't think it's going to be one where we sit around surrounded by our personal possessions knowing that someone else somewhere desires the same but has not.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Another thought---why do we want private ownership of things?

If all our needs and desires are fulfilled, does it really matter if the house I am enjoying belongs to me or to the community?

Do I really need to have a fancy telescope or fishing rod all to myself? If it's something I enjoy, wouldn't my enjoyment be increased if I were able to share that enjoyment with others rather than just keeping ti for myself?

Even if in today's world we must have private ownership to be profitable stewards, that does not mean we can't cultivate a celestial attitude to our possessions....whatever that celestial attitude may be. I don't think it's going to be one where we sit around surrounded by our personal possessions knowing that someone else somewhere desires the same but has not.

Who knows?

[mercyngrace]

Well we only commited to live it when called upon to live it. Currently we are not under that obligation. Or did I miss the memo. If so CFR that we are under obligation to currently live the LoC.

You missed the memo.

We are commanded to live in harmony with the Lord

[wenglund]

Another thought---why do we want private ownership of things?

I want it as a practical means for maximizing utility and efficient allocation and use of resources. I want it as a concrete way of identifying stewartship. And, I want it for sentimental reasons.

Thnnks, -Wade Englund-

[David Bokovoy]

I should not have to point this out, but this Telestial earth, currently, is not the kingdom of God.

And might I respectfully propose that perhaps you have missed the point? "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Matthew 6:10).

[David Bokovoy]

By definition, can there be an "inheritance" absent personal property?

Absolutely! See my earlier comments in this thread concerning the distinction between vassal treaty versus grant in Deuteronomy.

[Calm]

Who knows?

Do you believe there will be private ownership in the celestial kingdom?

[David T]

Well we only commited to live it when called upon to live it. Currently we are not under that obligation. Or did I miss the memo. If so CFR that we are under obligation to currently live the LoC.

The Law of Consecration is not the United Order. We are currently under covenant to obey the Law of Consecration, and our time, talents, and substance which we have are, for all intents and purposes, made record of and placed in the Lord's Storehouse. Our Bishops have the stewardship and authority to come to us to make withdraws from that storehouse as the need is made available.

That's the Law of Consecration as we live it today.

[Calm]

I want it as a practical means for maximizing utility and efficient allocation and use of resources. I want it as a concrete way of identifying stewartship. And, I want it for sentimental reasons.

Thnnks, -Wade Englund-

Agreed, next question is if these wants will be present in the Celestial Kingdom or not.

[mercyngrace]

Maybe we should focus less on what society will look like when we do it and more on doing what the Lord asks us to do and letting Him do His work.

Do you believe that Zion is imposed by God? If so, then we have a fundamental difference of opinion. It is my understanding that we create Zion because of who we are and how we treat each other. We are to become a Zion people, that is how the society of heaven is established.

From Bishop Keith B. McMullin Pres. Bishopric Oct 2002 GC:

The ancient prophet Enoch labored many years to bring his people to this state of righteousness. Like our day, they also lived in a time of wickedness, wars, and bloodshed. But the righteous people responded.

[WalkerW]

Very pleased that you brought up the Old Testament, since we can find some fascinating parallels on this subject between biblical views and modern revelation. Still, I'm afraid that I simply cannot accept your interpretation. In terms of the Latter-day denial of all private ownership, we find a direct link with the Psalmist

[David T]

On a related note, Quite frankly, I believe the prophesies about a renewed paradisaical earth will be more brought to pass by our appropriate and unselfish uses of Earth's resources than any super-natural earth-rending physical event. How many organizations and business now in place would be simply unneeded in a Zion/Millennial era?

[Calm]

On a related note, Quite frankly, I believe the prophesies about a renewed paradisaical earth will be more brought to pass by our appropriate and unselfish uses of Earth's resources than any super-natural earth-rending physical event. How many organizations and business now in place would be simply unneeded in a Zion/Millennial era?

And governments....

Perhaps the question that we need to be asking ourselves is if we should be trying to apply godly principles in an ungodly world, even just at a private personal level.

If that is the way we can become more like the Father (act like him), then I think observing that he cares for the needs and wants of even the most undeserving when it comes to their immortal state (Telestial Kingdom is not a place of deprivation) and only those who completely reject him and his help to the point of working against him (Sons of Perdition) are deprived through their own action of refusing the gifts proffered them.

****as a clarification, I believe that there is a need to work in men (self-esteem is inherently dependent on the sense of accomplishment for one thing) so encouraging someone in idleness is unhealthy and contrary to what the Lord would be doing either with mortal man or in any of the kingdoms of glory.

[WalkerW]

What plagues discussion and research regarding the economic system of the Law of Consecration is, frankly, political biases. I have heard Mormon conservatives read into the Book of Mormon some kind of American capitalistic democracy that just isn't there. They are mortified by the fact that the Law of Consecration does involve a redistribution of wealth. However, on the flip side, many liberal-leaning Mormons tend to think that all redistributions of wealth are created equal, which simply isn't the case. To better rid ourselves of such biases in our studies, we need to recognize that all current human economic institutions are flawed. What they all lack are God at its head and a covenant that is unifying and morally binding on the people. Having God as the central authority replaces the fallible human authorities that cause the pitfalls of economic collectivism (Hayek pointed out that no human central planner has all knowledge available to him. God, however, would have all available knowledge). The binding adherance to divine covenant would begin to eliminate the selfishness and greed often associated with capitalist systems.

This is very simplistic, but I think it expresses the gist of my view on the matter.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Do you believe there will be private ownership in the celestial kingdom?

I have no idea.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And might I respectfully propose that perhaps you have missed the point? "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Matthew 6:10).

Nice to see that the best of us can use proof texts.

[Calm]

What plagues discussion and research regarding the economic system of the Law of Consecration is, frankly, political biases. I have heard Mormon conservatives read into the Book of Mormon some kind of American capitalistic democracy that just isn't there. They are mortified by the fact that the Law of Consecration does involve a redistribution of wealth. However, on the flip side, many liberal-leaning Mormons tend to think that all redistributions of wealth are created equal, which simply isn't the case. To better rid ourselves of such biases in our studies, we need to recognize that all current human economic institutions are flawed. What they all lack are God at its head and a covenant that is unifying and morally binding on the people. Having God as the central authority replaces the fallible human authorities that cause the pitfalls of economic collectivism (Hayek pointed out that no human central planner has all knowledge available to him. God, however, would have all available knowledge). The binding adherance to divine covenant would begin to eliminate the selfishness and greed often associated with capitalist systems.

This is very simplistic, but I think it expresses the gist of my view on the matter.

I totally agree with this, which is why I think it may be best in examining what we should be doing in the here and now in the celestial context first rather than in any attempts past or present by anyone, including those in the scriptures to create a united community. Then I see the next step to be trying to place those communities we have been taught that were truly of the Lord in the context of what we have gleaned, then see how it played out in the early LDS communities (since these are the communities we have the most knowledge of). At that point, I see it being most effective to work on adapting ourselves so our mentality and emotions become more open to celestial concepts and less 'baggaged' by ideas created by pride and selfishness (I do not assume that desiring things for ourselves is automatically selfish) while we encourage our mortal communities to promote those policies and ideas that create the best atmosphere for personal development in these areas (and due to the less than ideal situations, those policies may be counterintuitive to what we think should be, so our choices in those areas need to be based on practical measures and ideas and not automatically on the ideal as the ideal doesnt' always translate well to our societies since there so much corruption, selfishness and confusion already built into any system currently in existence.)