Mormonism and the United Firm

[jwhitlock]

David - despite quoting from a number of sources, you intersperse them with your own conclusions and assumptions about what they mean. A few of my comments on where some of these difficulties lie follow; in my opinion, they need to be resolved or where you're headed with this will not be supported very well.

FWIW, like Will, I agree that there will be a major change that comes when Zion is finally established, and then again in the millennium. The economic orders we now have will not be applicable any more.

The Lord

[J Green]

David,

Great thread. Despite the occasional accusations of scripture torture and comparisons to Satan's plan there is some good discussion here. Incidentally, I suppose that even Enoch's project started with unity of purpose, effort, and principle. Those who want to play only when the action starts probably would have found the city gone when they finally showed up to build the tractor factory.

Regards

[J Green]

Duplicate.

Talk about unity of effort . . .

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

David,

Great thread. Despite the occasional accusations of scripture torture and comparisons to Satan's plan there is some good discussion here. Incidentally, I suppose that even Enoch's project started with unity of purpose, effort, and principle. Those who want to play only when the action starts probably would have found the city gone when they finally showed up to build the tractor factory.

Regards

I confess not reading every single post but who has claimed anything dealing with Satan's plan?

[mercyngrace]

I confess not reading every single post but who has claimed anything dealing with Satan's plan?

That would be Droopy, end of post 222.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

That would be Droopy, end of post 222.

Roger.

I have to confess I think he makes a valid point. But it would seem that would be for a differnt board as it gets "too political". I think that is why he feels so frustrated.

[USU78]

Section 42:37-39 And it shall come to pass, that he that sinneth and repenteth not shall be cast out of the church, and shall not receive again that which he has consecrated unto the poor and the needy of my church, or in other words, unto me

[mercyngrace]

Roger.

I have to confess I think he makes a valid point. But it would seem that would be for a differnt board as it gets "too political". I think that is why he feels so frustrated.

I think he believes people who disagree with him are communists. See the Zion thread. And I think he fundamentally misunderstands what is being said here.

NO ONE has argued for compulsion or the government forcing anything. Living the LOC has to be voluntary - it's the height of free choice! Choosing to serve and sacrifice for others out of love - it's the ultimate in the righteous use of agency regarding temporal welfare.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think he believes people who disagree with him are communists. See the Zion thread. And I think he fundamentally misunderstands what is being said here.

NO ONE has argued for compulsion or the government forcing anything. Living the LOC has to be voluntary - it's the height of free choice! Choosing to serve and sacrifice for others out of love - it's the ultimate in the righteous use of agency regarding temporal welfare.

Well, I think he has a quote of Harry Ried (I am a democrate because I am a Mormon)in mind when he reads these threads. And I have heard other left leaning LDS use some of these same scriptures to justify their choice in a current political leader. So even though that has not been said specifically in this thread, some times it is really really hard to separate the 2.

Similarly, if an LDS person is right leaning, some times some LDS think that means that we don't care about the planet and that we enjoy seeing starving, poor, people. So there is a certain bias that comes in when you know the the political leaning of certain posters, and the thread is boardline political in nature anyway.

I tried to keep all of that out of the thread and I had to catch my self. I saw David doing the same thing. Good for both of us, I guess.

I really don't think he thinks people are communists if they disagree with him. I seriously doubt that. I know that you might think that from reading his quote. And that is entirely valid to think so. But if I may, it was probably not the best joke to say.

[David Bokovoy]

I think he believes people who disagree with him are communists. See the Zion thread. And I think he fundamentally misunderstands what is being said here.

NO ONE has argued for compulsion or the government forcing anything. Living the LOC has to be voluntary - it's the height of free choice! Choosing to serve and sacrifice for others out of love - it's the ultimate in the righteous use of agency regarding temporal welfare.

In my estimate, this is a very significant point. As I tried to express in the very title of this thread, the systems revealed through the prophet Joseph are unlike any other secular order. We're not talking socialism or any other secular -ism. If anything, we could perhaps refer to this religious view as Consecrationism. After twelve some odd pages of opposition, however, the absolute accuracy of Brigham Young's observation concerning the Saints is extremely clear:

"There is another revelation still prior to this time, stating that it is the duty of all people who go to Zion to consecrate all their property to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This revelation was referred to at the April Conference in 1854. It was one of the first commandments or revelations given to this people after they had the privilege of organizing themselves as a Church, as a body, as the kingdom of God on the earth. I observed then, and I now think, that it will be one of the last revelations which the people will receive into their hearts and understandings, of their own free will and choice, and esteem it as a pleasure, a privilege, and a blessing unto them to observe and keep most holy." Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 299

[rockslider]

A "wild man" who cries in the wilderness to bring forth fruit meet for repentance.

"Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight, for the hour of his coming is nigh"

The Lord requires us to forsake the crafts of men BEFORE he will visit us with the sanctification of the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.

Those who are prepared in this fashion have already consecrated their all in heart. The economy of Zion would not only be desired by such people it would be insisted upon as they each considered and preferred their neighbor before themselves. Such are the pure in heart. Such is the kingdom of God and the will of the Father.

This economy is ONLY for such a people as this. I think Christ declares in 3 Nephi 16 that the Gentile Church falls before the real Zion comes so it will begin with a few in number and not the problematic millions.

Who is this new traveler who speaks to my heart?

[David Bokovoy]

Hello JWhitlock,

Thanks for addressing my observations with sincerity.

There is a logical assumption made here that by "possessions", the Lord is talking about economic and financial equality. I don't find that to be true;

And yet the matter of economic and financial equality is not only the historical background behind D&C 38, the revelation itself makes clear that by "possessions," the Lord is specifically referring to economic and financial matters. Note versus 16-17:

"And for your salvation I give unto you a commandment, for I have heard your prayers, and the poor have complained before me, and the rich have I made, and all flesh is mine, and I am no respector of persons. And I have made the earth rich, and behold it is my footstool, wherefore, again I will stand upon it."

The concept of finance and economics as it exists in our society does not lend itself to the type of "equality" envisioned by the Lord.

I fully agree.

As such, the Lord evidently refers to another order or structure relating to material possessions as it will exist in the future - but does not and cannot exist under our current system.

Again, I agree that the Lord

[David Bokovoy]

David,

Great thread. Despite the occasional accusations of scripture torture and comparisons to Satan's plan there is some good discussion here. Incidentally, I suppose that even Enoch's project started with unity of purpose, effort, and principle. Those who want to play only when the action starts probably would have found the city gone when they finally showed up to build the tractor factory.

Regards

Love ya, Bro!

[David Bokovoy]

In terms of historical contextualization, I referred to this unpublished revelation received by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the opening post, but I would like to add the following lines that I find of particular interest:

"And the property which they [the Bishopric] receive of the Church, is not their own, but belongeth to the Church. Wherefore, it is the property of the Lord and it is for the poor of the Church, to be administered according to the law.' Joseph Smith, "Revelation on the Duty of Bishops," March 1832, Newel K. Whitney Papers, BYU Library.

[mercyngrace]

deleted

[wenglund]

I think David has made a fair request that opposing views be backed up using scripture and historical perspectives. I personally would like to stick with just looking at scriptures. To that end, I would like to present my interpretation of the scriptures that David presented in his OP. Fair enough?

[mercyngrace]

Again, does this sound reasonable?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade,

You keep referring to "laws" but remember the law is a schoolmaster to bring men to Christ. What did Jesus/Jehovah do that made Him the Christ? He redeemed men from death and sin through an infinite atonement - and act of grace.

Grace is an undeserved act of kindness, mercy, or compassion and Paul teaches that we are not under the law but under grace (Romans 6:15) Elder Christoffel Golden Jr explained, in reference to Paul's words, that "we should know that he is referring to the law of justice as embodied in the commandments of the law of Moses and not to the higher law of God."

The law of just compensation is Mosaic. You're well familiar with "an eye for an eye". The higher law goes beyond "fairness" and "justness" and invites us to become saviors to each other by extending "grace". It requires us to care for the widows and fatherless ("pure religion and undefiled is this" said James) but also demands that we recognize that we are ALL beggars receiving heavenly handouts day by day, hour by hour, breath by life-giving breath. It also reminds us that were we not to show mercy to those in need, we would be unjust stewards worthy of the ire of our Lord.

Consider the parable of the Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16). After neglecting the poor man throughout his life, dying and suffering eternal torment, the rich man cries out to Abraham, in whose bosom Lazarus resides. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Among the lessons of this parable, I find this the most intersting. The rich man doesn't call for aid from Abraham. He asks for Lazarus, the man he refused to help in life, to comfort him.

Is it possible that our only access to the bosom of God is through the poor?

Let us be merciful servants for whom just compensation is a minimum standard. Let us be servants who desire to retain a remission of our sins:

And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Wade,

I really appreciate the fact that you have used the scriptures to present your alternative perspective. I

[Senator]

It's a glorious concept and an exalting one.

MnG,

You have in this thread consistently painted a beautiful picture of those that are pure in heart and that will be the possessors of Zion.

I'm sensing that you "get it"!

When Zion is finally established, I want to be in your ward!

[mfbukowski]

When Zion is finally established, I want to be in your ward!

No way!

I want her in MY ward!

(Oh yeah- we're not supposed to be selfish....)

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Again Wade,

To me, the notion of compensation and blessings implies private ownership: an obedient person is given something that is now their's in return for their obedience (or, as the parable intimates, obedient servants are to be given robes and seating positions).

Sound reasonable so far?

David also quoted:

[Whoknows?]

Who is this new traveler who speaks to my heart?

My words are not my own but his that sent me.

[rockslider]

My words are not my own but his that sent me.

Fwiw, I sobbed uncontrollably for several moments

[David Bokovoy]

Now finally, to the point on private ownership:

To me, the notion of compensation and blessings implies private ownership: an obedient person is given something that is now their's in return for their obedience (or, as the parable intimates, obedient servants are to be given robes and seating positions).

As we have seen throughout this thread through scripture and its interpretation by the Prophet Joseph and his contemporaries, the notion of private ownership is inconsistent with the doctrine of Zion. Again, we read concerning the Zion community established among the Nephites:

"And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift" (4 Nephi 3)

Eventually, however, this economic harmony broke apart:

"And now I, Mormon, would that ye should know that the people had multiplied, insomuch that they were spread upon all the face of the land, and that they had become exceedingly rich, because of their prosperity in Christ. And now, in this two hundred and first year there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world. And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more common among them. And they began to be divided into classes; and they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain, and began to deny the true church of Christ" (vv. 23-26).

We can turn to the Lectures on Faith to see how these concepts work doctrinally. Through Lectures on Faith 3:5, we learn that one of the requirements that exists in order for an individual to possess the type of faith that leads unto eternal life is a

[mfbukowski]

A "wild man" who cries in the wilderness to bring forth fruit meet for repentance.

"Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight, for the hour of his coming is nigh"

The Lord requires us to forsake the crafts of men BEFORE he will visit us with the sanctification of the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.

Those who are prepared in this fashion have already consecrated their all in heart. The economy of Zion would not only be desired by such people it would be insisted upon as they each considered and preferred their neighbor before themselves. Such are the pure in heart. Such is the kingdom of God and the will of the Father.

This economy is ONLY for such a people as this. I think Christ declares in 3 Nephi 16 that the Gentile Church falls before the real Zion comes so it will begin with a few in number and not the problematic millions.

It will be the Church of the Firstborn only.

And this is why those who want to plan for how many bulldozers will be necessary to bring in the Millenium are just not getting it.

We have never experienced anything like this and will just have to feel our way, tapping our canes like blind men, but the most important part is what is in the heart, not what is in the economy.