LDS and "Friends of Scouting"...

[ERayR]

I think the pressure to donate has been excessive in the past. Perhaps it continues to be so in some areas of the Church. Times being what they are, I hope it has been moderated to a great degree.

Nope

[BCSpace]

Critics Blast Boy Scouts

If you have given money for "Friends of Scouting" in the past, would this info change your feelings about the program?

No for two reasons:

1) FOS benefits the local charters.

2) The salaries and perks reported do not show what percentage they are of the national organization's budget.

Btw, the BSA national organization is funded by registration fees, local council service fees, investment income, Scouting and Boys' Life magazines, sale of uniforms and equipment, and contributions from individuals.

However, yes I do dislike being assigned to go around and ask for donations.

[mfbukowski]

We send out a letter each year and ask for contributions.

That's it. Maybe some reminders, not over the pulpit, in Priesthood and Relief Society.

Whatever comes in comes in. I'm kinda surprised that it is pushed so hard elsewhere.

[BenMacKay]

Soliciting FOS Donations in a meeting that is a part of the three hour block is completely inappropriate. Church meetings are for worshipping the Savior and building spiritual strength. Our stake presidency encouraged us as a stake YM presidency to teach wards to announce the campaign, put it in the bulletin, and make direct contact with potential contributors but never, never to pass out cards in priesthood meeting and then collect them there.

I could go on and on about Scouting and the church as I've been teaching it for four years. Emphasis should be on the internal changes of the YM that result from the goals an work required and encouraged. Scouting is a wonderful support for the Aaronic priesthood when implemented properly. But people can have their focus skewed so easily it requires constant reminders.

[handys003]

Grrrrr......... This really just ticked me off when I came across this tonight. As ES of our ward I was put in charge of collection this past year. Now I felt like I contributed to fraud! I'm making sure the SP sees this video. I don't have a problem donating to scouts if I'm sure the money is getting distributed properly. Exoborant salaries and perks are not proper. This voluntary donated hard earned money taken for greed. Next time I'm just going to give it to the Scoutmasters at church for usage.

[silvermoon383]

Except as BCSpace already pointed out, FoS is only one of the ways that the BSA raises money. Not to accuse the OP of lying (I'm not), I do think the whole thing is being blown out of proportion (though admittedly it could just be a difference in region.) The only FoS drives I remember in church are a simple announcement at the beginning of Sacrament meeting, a line in the program, and a stack of pamphlets out by the door. Heck, I'm a unit commissioner, and at my monthly commissioners meeting at FoS time I got no pressure to donate (they even told me not too since I'm a college student and needed the money.)

[ERayR]

We send out a letter each year and ask for contributions.

That's it. Maybe some reminders, not over the pulpit, in Priesthood and Relief Society.

Whatever comes in comes in. I'm kinda surprised that it is pushed so hard elsewhere.

Because the assessment is not small.

[Darth_Bill]

I'm not interested in scouting and I can't in good conscience serve as a leader. My restrictions I would place on serving would disqualify me anyway. My children are part of scouting and having seen the ward budget for YM vs YW, I'm completely comfortable not donating to FoS. I have never really understood the LDS fascination with the organization.

[Brenda]

Sorry, Brenda, holding a meeting during part of the three-hour block for the express purpose of pressuring people into donating strikes me as a misuse of precious Sabbath-day worship time. I sincerely hope such a practice is not widespread.

You may not agree with it but the bishop can make this call. I would guess that the meeting was not to pressure people, but to explain the purpose. However, people tend to perceive things differently.

[GauchoNM]

Here is statement of church sponsered units selling popcorn. Works well in my ward. BSA salaries are low compared to other organizations. BSA wants good professionals to stay around and they have to pay them otherwise they go get better salaried jobs like anybody else would who worked for a for profit organization.

http://www.ldsbsa.org/pdf/resources/Memo%20for%20Popcorn.pdf

[frankenstein]

Here is statement of church sponsered units selling popcorn. Works well in my ward. BSA salaries are low compared to other organizations. BSA wants good professionals to stay around and they have to pay them otherwise they go get better salaried jobs like anybody else would who worked for a for profit organization.

http://www.ldsbsa.or...r%20Popcorn.pdf

are you comparing the salary of non-profit to non-profit.....and who in the right mind seeks a non-profit job expecting a for profit salary. I say call the (*&(*7 of *^*&^%% bluff, there are only so many "for profit" salaries available. Not every highly qualified person will get one of those "for profit" salaries, so the BSA could have highly qualified people at lower salaries.

[cinepro]

Scouting is much the same. It serves a purpose. But for my tastes, the trappings often distract young men from its actual purpose/intent. Some learn to compete for the prestige of advancement - for external rewards - including the praise/encouragement of others. Methinks the clamor of all that - surrounding a young man who is still trying to figure out what's important - can lead him to glom on to long-term attitudes, behaviors, and pursuits based on a mirage.

Thoughts?

I think it's the LDS focus on getting Eagle that is the root of the problem (and the external pressure from leaders and parents). And as the leader and parent of a Scout, I fully acknowledge my complicity.

On the other hand, I can see the areas of my kids' lives where they pursue interests without caring whether or not they can get a badge for it. But the merit badge program (and the Eagle-required badges) serve as a good program to outline some basic skills, knowledge and experiences that every young man should master, which they otherwise might not. And I don't think it's programs like this that help develop a competitive or comparative attitude among certain kids.

It's like my sister trying to keep her young son totally free of any "violent" toys like toy guns or swords. Even in his toy gun-free environment, he would fashion sticks (and even crusts of bread) into gun shapes and fire away. Some kids will always know what the score is, and seek to excel over their peers.

[mfbukowski]

Because the assessment is not small.

If you don't make it you don't make it. What is going to happen? If it's inappropriate, don't do it. Of course that is easy for me to say. I am just saying how I would handle it. You can't get blood out of a turnip. Tithing and FO's are all that is required.

[silvermoon383]

As I thought about it some more, I also think a good part of this whole FoS debate stems from another one of those massive differences between how LDS scout units are run when compared with other units. Our Scout program is part of the YM program so we pay for everything with the ward budget (which comes from tithing.) With a guaranteed source of funding like that there's no real need for a FoS drive. Other units however, are almost always dependent upon FoS donations and other fundraisers to get the money they need to operate. They happen every year.

[Anijen]

deleted

[hagoth7]

I have never really understood the LDS fascination with the organization.

The more I learn about personality types, and about how organizations tend to utilize certain specific personalities, the more I begin to understand why/how.

[hagoth7]

On the other hand, I can see the areas of my kids' lives where they pursue interests without caring whether or not they can get a badge for it.

Yep. Yep. (And did I say, "Yep!"?)

That's the intent.

But the merit badge program (and the Eagle-required badges) serve as a good program to outline some basic skills, knowledge and experiences that every young man should master, which they otherwise might not.

I agree.

But, based on your first statement, why buy into the ceremonial aspects of it?

Is there a requirement to do 100% of the scouting program - pomp, circumstance, and the whole kaboodle?

Or is there not an option to select and choose the elements which a youth leader feels would be of greatest benefit (and least distraction) to the youth they serve?

And I don't think it's programs like this that help develop a competitive or comparative attitude among certain kids.

There is reason to believe it is certain disposable portions of that program which play a contributory role.

It's like my sister trying to keep her young son totally free of any "violent" toys like toy guns or swords. Even in his toy gun-free environment, he would fashion sticks (and even crusts of bread) into gun shapes and fire away.

They are mirroring behavior they have been shown.

The scouting program, as it currently stands, demonstrates that one should wear one's achievements on one's sleeve, and get public recognition for such achievement. Both, in my view, are detrimental to what young LDS men should be learning.

This involves behavior and attitudes that some young men will mirror the rest of their lives - because that's what they saw during some of their most impressionable years. I'm simply saying it wouldn't hurt to take a more careful look at what we're encouraging young men to focus on.

All the OTHER aspects of scouting, however, I agree with you completely.

I love the structured guidance young men get on a vast area of fields, topics, and skills.

Strip it of all the external stuff, and you'd have my complete buy-in.

(Let me put it this way: my son will likely never attend a court of honor. Honor isn't something pinned to a BSA uniform.)

Some kids will always know what the score is, and seek to excel over their peers.

Yet, they learn such behavior from mirroring behavior they see.

And if kids see certain behavior [receiving external reward, recognition, and acclaim for personal achievement] and they see that behavior being publicly condoned, encouraged, AND rewarded, certain impressionable types will be all the more likely to model the pursuit of such extrinsic rewards. Such an approach is a dead-end. A ladder leaned up against the wrong wall. That aspect of the program can cripple/hobble, rather than benefit, an impressionable young man.

Wouldn't you agree? Having already read the author referred to earlier?

Thoughts?

[hagoth7]

I'll put it another way.

My sister, who was a year ahead of me in school, but light-years ahead of me in other things, was asked by her seminary teacher to read the Book of Mormon, and to mark her progress on a public chart.

She said no thankyou.

Yet she completed reading the book promptly, acquired a testimony of it.

She simply left her chart blank. A white gap of paper - in the midst of a sea of gold stars.

I have great admiration for her for that.

I believe it is part of what made her who she is.

And it is part of what galvanized her through some of the struggles she later waded through, and conquered.

She would of course kick me in the shins for airing that story.

But I believe it demonstrates something of value...worth considering.

Many of her other seminary friends have since lost all faith in God.

As Kohn says, extrinsic (external) rewards tend to rob people of intrinsic (internal) rewards/motivation.

In spiritual things, it can even suffocate the soul.

Thoughts?

[hagoth7]

Whether we're talking about priorities or the inner moral compass that guides us when fashioning such priorities...

...external rewards (in scouting) can do to the inner compass what a heavy belt buckle can do to a scout's compass.

It can shift the arrow, distorting his perception of magnetic north, sending that young man way off course.

Even a five-degree shift in one's bearings - compounded over twenty or thirty years pursuing that bearing - adds up to a vast course deviation - that could take the rest of one's life realizing -let alone correcting.

What does the iron rod say about public acclaim?

[ERayR]

Yep. Yep. (And did I say, "Yep!"?)

That's the intent.

I agree.

But, based on your first statement, why buy into the ceremonial aspects of it?

Is there are a requirement to do 100% of the scouting program - pomp, circumstance, and the whole kaboodle?

Or is there not an option to select and choose the elements which a youth leader feels would be of greatest benefit (and least distraction) to the youth they serve?

There is reason to believe it is certain disposable portions of that program which play a contributory role.

They are mirroring behavior they have been shown.

The scouting program, as it currently stands, demonstrates that one should wear one's achievements on one's sleeve, and get public recognition for such achievement. Both, in my view, are detrimental to what young LDS men should be learning.

This involves behavior and attitudes that some young men will mirror the rest of their lives - because that's what they saw during some of their most impressionable years. I'm simply saying it wouldn't hurt to take a more careful look at what we're encouraging young men to focus on.

All the OTHER aspects of scouting, however, I agree with you completely.

I love the structured guidance young men get on a vast area of fields, topics, and skills.

Strip it of all the external stuff, and you'd have my complete buy-in.

(Let me put it this way: my son will likely never attend a court of honor. Honor isn't something pinned to a BSA uniform.)

Yet, they learn such behavior from mirroring behavior they see.

And if kids see certain behavior [receiving external reward, recognition, and acclaim for personal achievement] and they see that behavior being publicly condoned, encouraged, AND rewarded, certain impressionable types will be all the more likely to model the pursuit of such extrinsic rewards. Such an approach is a dead-end. A ladder leaned up against the wrong wall. That aspect of the program can cripple/hobble, rather than benefit, an impressionable young man.

Wouldn't you agree? Having already read the author referred to earlier?

Thoughts?

As I was reading your post a thought crossed my mind. Why is it not alright to receive exterior rewards (accolades) for our achievements. Do we not honor God for his achievements?

[ERayR]

I'll put it another way.

My sister, who was a year ahead of me in school, but light-years ahead of me in other things, was asked by her seminary teacher to read the Book of Mormon, and to mark her progress on a public chart.

She said no thankyou.

Yet she completed reading the book promptly, acquired a testimony of it.

She simply left her chart blank. A white gap of paper - in the midst of a sea of gold stars.

I have great admiration for her for that.

I believe it is part of what made her who she is.

And it is part of what galvanized her through some of the struggles she later waded through, and conquered.

She would of course kick me in the shins for airing that story.

But I believe it demonstrates something of value...worth considering.

Many of her other seminary friends have since lost all faith in God.

As Kohn says, extrinsic (external) rewards tend to rob people of intrinsic (internal) rewards/motivation.

In spiritual things, it can even suffocate the soul.

Thoughts?

While it is commendable that your sister completed the assignment (request) without external noteriety and as you said "A white gap of paper - in the midst of a sea of gold stars." What if God had attained what he did and left us with " A white gap of paper - in the midst of a sea of gold stars." We would have nothing to follow.

[frankenstein]

While it is commendable that your sister completed the assignment (request) without external noteriety and as you said "A white gap of paper - in the midst of a sea of gold stars." What if God had attained what he did and left us with " A white gap of paper - in the midst of a sea of gold stars." We would have nothing to follow.

not anywhere close to the same thing.

[selek]

While it is commendable that your sister completed the assignment (request) without external noteriety and as you said "A white gap of paper - in the midst of a sea of gold stars." What if God had attained what he did and left us with " A white gap of paper - in the midst of a sea of gold stars." We would have nothing to follow.

And yet, wasn't that 'gap of white in a sea of gold' every bit as much a public statement as charting her progress would have been?

In fact, doesn't her bold statement of non-conformity stand out MORE than the quiet effort of her fellows?

Seems to me that she's wearing her accolades on her sleeve every bit as much as the others- she just chooses to wear it on the right sleeve instead of the left...

[mfbukowski]

I'll put it another way.

My sister, who was a year ahead of me in school, but light-years ahead of me in other things, was asked by her seminary teacher to read the Book of Mormon, and to mark her progress on a public chart.

She said no thankyou.

Yet she completed reading the book promptly, acquired a testimony of it.

She simply left her chart blank. A white gap of paper - in the midst of a sea of gold stars.

I have great admiration for her for that.

I believe it is part of what made her who she is.

And it is part of what galvanized her through some of the struggles she later waded through, and conquered.

She would of course kick me in the shins for airing that story.

But I believe it demonstrates something of value...worth considering.

Many of her other seminary friends have since lost all faith in God.

As Kohn says, extrinsic (external) rewards tend to rob people of intrinsic (internal) rewards/motivation.

In spiritual things, it can even suffocate the soul.

Thoughts?

Hey man, what kind of attitude is this? This is America, dude- don't you know that the one who dies with the most toys wins?

[wenglund]

Why is it that the girl scouts sell cookies as a fund raiser, but the BSA just wants a free handout??

Maybe it is so that all the proceeds can go to scouting rather than having a good portion go to the makers of the cookies.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-