LDS and "Friends of Scouting"...

[hagoth7]

...such forms of public recognition have long proven, on balance, to be effective pedagogical strategies, which not only have, on balance, a positive motivational impact, but also act as a way of training young minds in self-monitoring and self-accountability and other desirable tools of progress.

For what it's worth, a growing number of teenagers will balk at attempts to make their personal progress public.

Invasion of privacy. Breach of trust. Such attempts can erode student's respect in teachers who resort to that. (There are actually recent laws that protect student privacy in a number of matters.)

I have a close family relative who actually teaches in the field of pedagogical strategies at the university level.

His views on his own scouting experiences are...interesting - and played some role in shaping my own.

[hagoth7]

While I personally don't have the greatest interest in scouts (and I can think of one guy in what used to be my young mens group who hated it)

I'd be very interested to hear which aspects of scouting he hated. And what it was about those aspects that he hated.

I can see it having a good effect for different people, and teaching some basic skills that can be useful

I agree completely.

[hagoth7]

I laughed because I predicted THIS:

Until you've grown up in a town/school with only a handful of people who share your faith, you underestimate the ripple effects that withdrawing from seminary - or from the young men's program - can have on a young person.

Let me guess:

you never had the privilege of visiting one of your former scout buddies in prison?

While you were still just a young kid in high school.

Precisely what is funny or laughable about that?

It was heartbreaking. And it still is.

Again, it's super that you feel things turned out well for you.

But if you choose to laugh at reality...considering what's really at stake here,

I may not have much more to reply.

[Facsimile 3]

Let me guess:

you never had the privilege of visiting one of your former scout buddies in prison?

While you were still just a young kid in high school.

Precisely what is funny or laughable about that?

It was heartbreaking. And it still is.

Again, it's super that you feel things turned out well for you.

But if you choose to laugh at reality...considering what's really at stake here,

I may not have much more to reply.

?

And this has to do with me laughing because you assume I know nothing about your early morning seminary situation because I live in Utah? I'm not following. I feel I am feeding a Gremlin after midnight and detracting from the topic which I suppose is pretty much spent anyway. I will kick myself out of this thread.

[hagoth7]

I feel that the way you presented your sister's story was OVERLY DRAMATIC.

I don't see how your subjective feelings about me or my family contribute to the topic of the thread.

Engage me on that.

No. But thanks. I'll pass on the thread derail.

[hagoth7]

?

And this has to do with me laughing because you assume I know nothing about your early morning seminary situation because I live in Utah?

No. I wouldn't presume that you know nothing.

And where you live isn't even on the radar.

I simply wanted to understand the scope of where you're coming from,

to get a better idea why you might deem serious things to be laughable.

[Scott Lloyd]

yes this combined Preisthood/RS meeting was about one month ago, I did not have money to give, and I do not need to be propagandized on the benefits of scouting, so I did not feel bad about leaving after the second hour. I do not know what the meeting was about but it the meeting had full BSA pomp and circumstance i.e. color guard presentation. just for reference this was a Arizona ward

It's sounding worse the more you describe it. A secular ritual -- even a flag ceremony -- has no place in a Sabbath day worship service. You were right to skip out on the meeting.

[Scott Lloyd]

I am the first to agree that scouting is a big pain in the you-know-where. That's probably because dealing with 8-15 year old boys is a big pain in the same place, IMO. However, I believe in scouting. The goal of scouting is not to teach them skills, or to fill up sashes with badges. The goal is to get them on a mission because if they go on a mission, then they will go to the temple, likely be married in the temple, etc.

This is a common perception. Yet I wonder if there is a bit of the post hoc fallacy at play here. Parents in the Church who strongly encourage their boys to earn the Eagle Scout rank tend also to be those who strongly encourage their boys to serve missions. I'm not persuaded there's necessarily a causal link between Eagle Scout rank and the likelihood of missionary service, though I acknowledge there are compatible characteristics for both.

[Brenda]

?

Huh?

That's not at all what I'm suggesting.

Some have implied that they do not agree with the Church's use of BSA.

? Parental fault?

Is there a need to create unnecessary homework for parents?

Parents are already busy.

They already have school homework their kids need help/support with most evenings.

And the parents have their own callings and home chores that need attention most nights.

And family home evening. And home/visiting teaching. And home/visiting teachers coming to their home.

And genealogy, temple work, writing family histories, etc.

Why heap guilt on parents...for a secular program no parent need feel guilty about?

You bet parents are busy. I was talking about the scouting leaders. A good scout leader is doing his best to fit the program to the needs of each boy, rather than letting a boy slip through the cracks.

This is a common perception. Yet I wonder if there is a bit of the post hoc fallacy at play here. Parents in the Church who strongly encourage their boys to earn the Eagle Scout rank tend also to be those who strongly encourage their boys to serve missions. I'm not persuaded there's necessarily a causal link between Eagle Scout rank and the likelihood of missionary service, though I acknowledge there are compatible characteristics for both.

I totally agree. Usually parents of Eagle Scouts are attentive and involved, for rare is the boy who does it on his own. It's those same attentive and involved parents who tend to send out the missionaries. However, as far as the LDS viewpoint of BSA, a mission is the goal. This was taught at Philmont, by Pres. Dahlquist, the former general YM president.

[hagoth7]

Some have implied that they do not agree with the Church's use of BSA.

By "the Church" do you mean broader church policy?

Or the various applications of that general policy in individual wards?

For clarity, I'm not talking about the former. I'm instead addressing the latter.

For example, I disagree with some of the uses I've seen of the BSA in some of the wards I've been in.

Or with the way the arizona ward mentioned in this thread apparently allocate the RS/Priesthood block time for BSA business.

But how the Church (capital C) uses the BSA - I think the very premise is something of a nonstarter.

Because each ward's expression of the scouting initiative differs.

You bet parents are busy. I was talking about the scouting leaders. A good scout leader is doing his best to fit the program to the needs of each boy, rather than letting a boy slip through the cracks.

?

If you think I'm being condemnatory of scoutmasters...then you've misunderstood my nature, my experience, and my concern.

I totally agree. Usually parents of Eagle Scouts are attentive and involved, for rare is the boy who does it on his own. It's those same attentive and involved parents who tend to send out the missionaries.

? You're speaking from your own experience - which appears to exclude the rest of us.

Neither I nor my three older brothers advanced to Eagle. It simply didn't interest us. Yet we all served missions.

I haven't seen any data which demonstrates a correlation between merit badges (or scouting advancements) with serving a mission.

If such a study has been done somewhere, I'd love to see it.

I have, however, seen retention data that correlates activity in the youth program with serving a mission.

And that data heightens my concern about what I learned about scouting - both as a youth and as a YM leader.

There is a friction that goes on between certain youth and certain local expressions of the program which contributes to their attrition from the YM program. Which means with the status quo, most of those who withdraw from church activity during their scouting years will never serve a mission.

However, as far as the LDS viewpoint of BSA, a mission is the goal. This was taught at Philmont, by Pres. Dahlquist, the former general YM president.

So if certain local expressions of the BSA program impede that goal, what then?

[LeSellers]

I haven't seen any data which demonstrates a correlation between merit badges or scouting advancements with serving a mission.

If such a study has been done somewhere, I'd love to see it.

This is, admittedly, hear-say, but it does address the question. This morning in High Priests' Group, our lesson was on "Proclaim the Gospel". A High Councilman said that he'd seen that 98% of LDS Eagle Scouts serve missions. He felt it was high, but several other brethren, one a former scoutmaster (inter alia.), said they'd seen the same numbers.

Lehi

[hagoth7]

This is, admittedly, hear-say, but it does address the question. This morning in High Priests' Group, our lesson was on "Proclaim the Gospel". A High Councilman said that he'd seen that 98% of LDS Eagle Scouts serve missions. He felt it was high, but several other brethren, one a former scoutmaster (inter alia.), said they'd seen the same numbers.

That's actually a helpful anecdotal. At the very least, it may suggest a glimmer of the assumptions and thought processes that go on in local decision-making circles. (I'm guessing the high councilman and the former scoutmaster were Eagles as well?)

Let me phrase the question this way: how many inactive youth does it take to create an Eagle?

(By that I mean, of the youth who became inactive during their scouting years, how large is the subset of them who left in considerable degree because of the way the program was expressed locally?)

I ask this...having had some experience in organizational retention matters and creating/tabulating meaningful exit interview databanks.

My core interest is on those who left....and why.

(I'm not as interested in the 99...as in the 1.)

[BrotherDiaz]

I'd be very interested to hear which aspects of scouting he hated. And what it was about those aspects that he hated.

I agree completely.

Well, to be honest, come to think of it, it had a lot to do with the scoutmaster and some of the guys in there. He was quite sensitive, and didn't really like this scoutmaster or his son. That, and while he was a sporty, active kid, his family was never one for camping. They just didn't like doing it.

And I'm really sorry to hear about your friend there. That is awful, and I wish the best for him. As for the whole seminary thing; in MA, given that there are barely any members in the schools we went to, we would go to early morning seminary, and while the waking up and driving could be a drag, I am incredibly grateful for it. It helped to set off my day. And while we did keep some minor score-sheets of how we were doing, we knew that that wasn't what it was about. We weren't always all there in that class, but we had a wonderful, faithful seminary teacher who loved us and was grateful just to be there to teach us. I say that, as long as seminary teachers are like that, no matter whether they keep some sort of a scoring card or not, they will generally have a good influence among those they teach. I can't tell you how much she cared for us, but you could see it when we had our little seminary graduation.

Man, am I missing my home stake right now. But I'll save the reminiscing and blubbering to myself

[BrotherDiaz]

By "the Church" do you mean broader church policy?

Or the various applications of that general policy in individual wards?

For clarity, I'm not talking about the former. I'm instead addressing the latter.

For example, I disagree with some of the uses I've seen of the BSA in some of the wards I've been in.

Or with the way the arizona ward mentioned in this thread apparently allocate the RS/Priesthood block time for BSA business.

But how the Church (capital C) uses the BSA - I think the very premise is something of a nonstarter.

Because each ward's expression of the scouting initiative differs.

?

If you think I'm being condemnatory of scoutmasters...then you've misunderstood my nature, my experience, and my concern.

? You're speaking from your own experience - which appears to exclude the rest of us.

Neither I nor my three older brothers advanced to Eagle. It simply didn't interest us. Yet we all served missions.

I haven't seen any data which demonstrates a correlation between merit badges (or scouting advancements) with serving a mission.

If such a study has been done somewhere, I'd love to see it.

I have, however, seen retention data that correlates activity in the youth program with serving a mission.

And that data heightens my concern about what I learned about scouting - both as a youth and as a YM leader.

There is a friction that goes on between certain youth and certain local expressions of the program which contributes to their attrition from the YM program. Which means with the status quo, most of those who withdraw from church activity during their scouting years will never serve a mission.

So if certain local expressions of the BSA program impede that goal, what then?

There is a friction that goes on between certain youth and certain local expressions of the program which contributes to their attrition from the YM program. Which means with the status quo, most of those who withdraw from church activity during their scouting years will never serve a mission.

Could you elaborate?

[hagoth7]

Well, to be honest, come to think of it, it had a lot to do with the scoutmaster and some of the guys in there.

What type of interaction are you talking about?

What was it about the scoutmaaster and some of the guys there that led to his dislike for the program?

He was quite sensitive,

Hmm....that's helpful.

and didn't really like this scoutmaster or his son.

What was it about the scoutmaster's son that he didn't really like?

Was it something he said? The way he said it?

Something he didn't say?

Something he did - or the manner in which he did it?

Something he didn't do?

That, and while he was a sporty, active kid,

Very helpful...

his family was never one for camping. They just didn't like doing it.

Ah. Helpful tidbit too.

I can't tell you how much she cared for us, but you could see it when we had our little seminary graduation.

That's awesome...and it's true of most teachers who get up at 5 every morning for other people's kids.

Man, am I missing my home stake right now. But I'll save the reminiscing and blubbering to myself

Sorry to dredge up the homesickness.

But I'm very grateful for your input here.

[hagoth7]

There is a friction that goes on between certain youth and certain local expressions of the program which contributes to their attrition from the YM program.

Which means with the status quo, most of those who withdraw from church activity during their scouting years will never serve a mission.

Could you elaborate?

Sure. If the goal is to get worthy young men to missions and to the temple, what if the means to get many of them there becomes a barrier for some of the others? A stumblingblock. A road to inactivity.

For example, imagine you're a youth group leader. The adult.

And imagine I'm 13 years old, and I'm somewhat clumsy and quiet.

Two others in the non-denominational youth group you're responsible for have a similar demeanor.

(I'm depicting this theoretical group in a generic, non-LDS context so people don't confuse my concerns as being criticism of the capital "c" Church...and so they then don't waste bandwidth thinking they need to defend something that I'm not even attacking.)

However, the majority of the boys in your youth group, who also happen to be the most outspoken (perhaps in part because they ARE a majority) vocalize their desire to play flag football, soccer, and basketball for each of our activities. And, when quiet ones muster up the frustration to say they'd rather do something else, they're taught by the "boring" and "lame" comments of the outspoken group that their suggestions come at too great a social cost...even if you as a leader might continue to ask them for their input.

What will be the likely result in such a dynamic?

The two or three of us who don't care for horseplay and roughhousing...and who have to continually display our weaknesses in order to even be with the assigned group activity...how many of us do you think will drop out after a couple of months of that?

And if that dynamic plays out to a lesser degree in Sunday School...with the same majority of boys who now look down on the few who stopped playing ball....how many of the quieter ones do you think might eventually turn elsewhere for fellowship and worship (assuming they have even developed a desire for worship)?

Compound that with the pastor and the local elders feeling strongly about the need for the boys in the program to get lots of exercise and fresh air...to help keep them engaged (since that happens to be what engaged them when they were young.)

And compound that with the likelihood that they might not even consider asking someone to serve that youth group who expresses preferences differing from their own built-in assumptions of how a youth program should run.

So you, having a similar background to the other adult leader (pastor, elders), might have difficulty even relating to the two or three kids in the background who simply don't seem to want to be part of the group. And even if you're aware of suggestions of what might be done to reach out to the other three - you have the problem of the athletics "program" which your superiors want to see executed, plus the issue of the vocal majority who aren't interested in the same kinds of activities that the quiet two or three happen to prefer.

To overgeneralize:

If you're a hammer, everything is a nail.

And to overgeneralize on the scouting issues:

And if you're an Eagle..... ?

And if you're a local leader, and the BSA is the general guideline, the frequent assumption is that the BSA program, in its entirety, IS your mandate.

But what of the few (like your friend).

In ward after ward.

Who can't relate to such an approach?

Does that provide sufficient elaboration to convey what my intentions are in this thread?

[Brenda]

By "the Church" do you mean broader church policy?

Or the various applications of that general policy in individual wards?

For clarity, I'm not talking about the former. I'm instead addressing the latter.

For example, I disagree with some of the uses I've seen of the BSA in some of the wards I've been in.

Or with the way the arizona ward mentioned in this thread apparently allocate the RS/Priesthood block time for BSA business.

But how the Church (capital C) uses the BSA - I think the very premise is something of a nonstarter.

Because each ward's expression of the scouting initiative differs.

?

If you think I'm being condemnatory of scoutmasters...then you've misunderstood my nature, my experience, and my concern.

? You're speaking from your own experience - which appears to exclude the rest of us.

Neither I nor my three older brothers advanced to Eagle. It simply didn't interest us. Yet we all served missions.

I haven't seen any data which demonstrates a correlation between merit badges (or scouting advancements) with serving a mission.

If such a study has been done somewhere, I'd love to see it.

I have, however, seen retention data that correlates activity in the youth program with serving a mission.

And that data heightens my concern about what I learned about scouting - both as a youth and as a YM leader.

There is a friction that goes on between certain youth and certain local expressions of the program which contributes to their attrition from the YM program. Which means with the status quo, most of those who withdraw from church activity during their scouting years will never serve a mission.

So if certain local expressions of the BSA program impede that goal, what then?

The Church has adopted scouting at its YM program. That's what I meant. It's entirely possible and probably likely that some individuals in some wards don't always use the right approach in all things pertaining to scouting. Keeping people trained is an ongoing process.

Hagoth, I'm not suggesting anything about what you have written and apologize if I didn't communicate clearly. It's just that the scouting program can be tailored to the needs and interests of any boy, and a good scout leader can make that happen, with the help of the Spirit, cooperation from parents, support of ward leadership, etc. The biggest problem that I've seen is lack of training.

I never said only Eagle scouts go on missions. Of course that's not true. My husband, father, and brother were not eagle scouts, and all served missions. However, most LDS Eagle scouts DO serve missions.

"One reason there is much emphasis placed on Eagle Scouting within the Church is that more than 90 percent of LDS Eagles serve full-time missions, according to Elder Vaughn J. Featherstone, Young Men general president and member of the First Quorum of the Seventy.

Elder Featherstone related an account about a former chief Scout executive of Boy Scouts of America visiting the Missionary Training Center in Provo, Utah. The executive asked all those who had been in Scouting to stand.

"Everyone stood up," said Elder Featherstone. "He was shocked. He then asked how many were Eagle Scouts. About one-third remained standing.

"Later that day we met with the First Presidency and the Scouting executive told them, `Now I know why you have Scouting in the Church - it's to prepare your young men to become missionaries.'"

http://www.ldschurch...-continues.html

Pres. Monson said, ""Much has been said in the media of late regarding Scouting. Let me affirm that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter?day Saints has not diminished in any way its support of the Scouting movement. . . . " http://www.lds.org/pa/display/0,17884,5171-1,00.html

[hagoth7]

Hagoth, I'm not suggesting anything about what you have written and apologize if I didn't communicate clearly.

Thank you. Accepted and appreciated.

Likewise, if I've said anything that has offended you - that certainly has *not* been my intent.

I never said only Eagle scouts go on missions.

Apologies for any misunderstanding. (Perhaps I'll just press my forehead to the screen next time, hoping it uploads my intended meaning.) I was simply trying to say that there are many of us non-Eagles who never did relate to scouting...let alone to uber-scouting - who nonetheless served missions. (Your example of the majority of those in the MTC **not** achieving Eagle more accurately conveys the counterbalance I attempted to provide.)

[edit: added] And the concern is, if the majority of us who stayed active in the church didn't care a great deal for the focus on rank advancements, what then of all those who walked out? If, among those who walked out, there was a similar (or even greater propensity) to be turned off by some of the optional trappings of the program...is there something we might learn from that to engage some of those who might otherwise leave?

[mfbukowski]

This is, admittedly, hear-say, but it does address the question. This morning in High Priests' Group, our lesson was on "Proclaim the Gospel". A High Councilman said that he'd seen that 98% of LDS Eagle Scouts serve missions. He felt it was high, but several other brethren, one a former scoutmaster (inter alia.), said they'd seen the same numbers.

Lehi

It would be far more convincing if 98% of missionaries were eagle scouts. Big difference. My RM son had no desire to participate in scouts, so obviously experiences can vary. He also didn't like sports. Clearly unAmerican.

[sweetpotatoh]

Paying tithing and FO is enough. I will not give money to the scouts. Every year I decline to donate and they still come knocking on the door. To be fair they do send the boy scouts out to collect the money, which is the way it should be, where circumstances permit it. If there ever was a meeting at church about FoS I would leave the meeting. I would probably say something about it to the bishop as he is my neighbor, friend and home teacher.

[ERayR]

This is a common perception. Yet I wonder if there is a bit of the post hoc fallacy at play here. Parents in the Church who strongly encourage their boys to earn the Eagle Scout rank tend also to be those who strongly encourage their boys to serve missions. I'm not persuaded there's necessarily a causal link between Eagle Scout rank and the likelihood of missionary service, though I acknowledge there are compatible characteristics for both.

Having previously stated that I have problems with the proffessional scouting program (BSA) if you can encourage more parents to become involved in the scouting program you enlarge the pool of those who encourage missions etc ato go with the Eagle involvement.

[ERayR]

It would be far more convincing if 98% of missionaries were eagle scouts. Big difference. My RM son had no desire to participate in scouts, so obviously experiences can vary. He also didn't like sports. Clearly unAmerican.

What! Was he adopted from a foreign country?

[Brenda]

Paying tithing and FO is enough. I will not give money to the scouts. Every year I decline to donate and they still come knocking on the door. To be fair they do send the boy scouts out to collect the money, which is the way it should be, where circumstances permit it. If there ever was a meeting at church about FoS I would leave the meeting. I would probably say something about it to the bishop as he is my neighbor, friend and home teacher.

You probably weren't around when we paid into the ward budget, and building fund. All in addition to tithing and fast offerings. Frankly, I'd be a bit ashamed to someday face my ancestors who, in spite of their extreme poverty, built and paid for the Manti & St. George temples and other buildings, if I felt as you do. The tithing slip has more options than just tithing and fast offerings, for a reason. The others are all good causes too. We are encouraged to support scouting. And if for no other reason, obedience and humility bring blessings.

[Brenda]

Too often the program isn't run as it should, and the boys pay the price. There is something for every boy, in scouting. No matter what his interest is, it can be utilized and in addition to developing new interests. The boys need to be lured in with fun and adventure. I remember a story about an area that had a huge snowfall one winter. One of the adults over a local troop had access to some large tractors/road building equipment. The boys got to learn how to use some of these tractors by building a huge snow fort and then spent the night in it and with the help of extension cords, played video games all night. Now what boy wouldn't love that?

Our ward Varsity & Ventures (older scout troops) hiked around a volcano last year. It was a grueling 4-day hike and some of the boys really struggled. One boy suffered from fear of heights, and a couple of boys got overly wet in the rain. The other boys rallied around them, encouraged them through their fears, and sheltered the ones who were wet and cold. One of the boys was not LDS and is now one of our biggest defenders when kids at school mock the Mormons. Those boys came home bonded.

I'm sure a lot of headaches and hassles came with these and all other activities, but aren't they worth it?

[sweetpotatoh]

You probably weren't around when we paid into the ward budget, and building fund. All in addition to tithing and fast offerings. Frankly, I'd be a bit ashamed to someday face my ancestors who, in spite of their extreme poverty, built and paid for the Manti & St. George temples and other buildings, if I felt as you do. The tithing slip has more options than just tithing and fast offerings, for a reason. The others are all good causes too. We are encouraged to support scouting. And if for no other reason, obedience and humility bring blessings.

Brenda, you make a good point. I am sure that lord appreciates that we do pay a full tithe and FO. For some reason I don't think the lord cares one way or another whether I donate more of my money as I am still able to attend the temple. While I am grateful for the sacrifice of those who helped build the St. George and Manti temples, we are not required to make the same sacrifices today.