LDS and "Friends of Scouting"...

[hagoth7]

As I was reading your post a thought crossed my mind. Why is it not alright to receive exterior rewards (accolades) for our achievements.

Excellent question.

And...after thinking about it...your answer is?

Do we not honor God for his achievements?

Of course. That's in large part what the Sabbath is all about.

However, insisting that what's good for the goose is good for the gander may not apply.

While God doesn't become prideful and distracted from praise. Mortals, on the other hand, typically do.

The broader issue is this: many young men withdraw from church activity during scouting years.

Have many stopped to ask why?

Those who withdraw, in my experience, were often those who never saw much value in the scouting structure.

And many of them openly and repeatedly said as much.

Might generations of such young men have been perceiving a disconnect in the program that others have not?

(Young men are much more perceptive than we might give them credit for.)

By definition, scouting advancement creates something similar to ranks of nobility - a class structure - something the Founding Fathers outlawed for good reason. Some might see that comparison as a stretch. But hold the phone a minute....

Here's what I mean. The Book of Mormon provides case studies of how apparel distinctions led to class distinctions, pride, dischord in the church....and people leaving the church because of the fallout of such distinctions. What of such cautions?

Why would young men who care little for cloth badges continue coming to events where they're supposed to wear such badges?

I suspect that the sons of Mosiah would have fared about as poorly in modern LDS scouting programs as many of the LDS young men who have said no thanks and walked out of the church for good. Perhaps for many of the same reasons.

I'm willing to be wrong about my take on scouting and its impact on our youth (both on the impact on those who stay, and its tendency to encourage others to leave). But what if I'm not...

What then?

If you parents and YM leaders feel this has zero merit, then that's obviously within your stewardship.

I'm just speaking from my own experience (of one who stayed), and from my own observations of several who left.

Thoughts?

[hagoth7]

Hey man, what kind of attitude is this? This is America, dude- don't you know that the one who dies with the most toys wins?

I'm an immigrant. So be patient with me. I might catch on yet.

But it could take me another decade or two to get that mantra tattooed to the inside of my eyelids.

[hagoth7]

And yet, wasn't that 'gap of white in a sea of gold' every bit as much a public statement as charting her progress would have been?

Yes.

Is there anything wrong with a public statement?

In fact, doesn't her bold statement of non-conformity stand out MORE than the quiet effort of her fellows?

What was bold about it?

(Only a handful of us knew she was reading on the sly.)

She nonetheless bore her testimony of the Book of Mormon in ward and Youth Conference settings - with strength and conviction.

Seems to me that she's wearing her accolades on her sleeve every bit as much as the others- she just chooses to wear it on the right sleeve instead of the left...

That would be true...if she swaggered into seminary every morning proud of her humility^TM.

But you don't know her. I do.

She wasn't (and isn't) like that at all. On the contrary.

And to her, it wasn't anyone else's business - because to her, reading the scriptures was sacred.

And she treated it as such - in the best way she knew how.

You'll find that in the introverted/extroverted personality spectrum, a good number of those on the introverted side of the scale tend to feel that public approval for matters of private worship is an affront and a trespass on what they deem sacred.

[selek]

Yes.

Is there anything wrong with a public statement?

What was bold about it?

(Only a handful of us knew she was reading on the sly.)

She nonetheless bore her testimony of the Book of Mormon in ward and Youth Conference settings - with strength and conviction.

That would be true...if she swaggered into seminary every morning proud of her humility^TM.

But you don't know her. I do.

And to her, it wasn't anyone else's business - because to her reading the scriptures was sacred.

And she treated it as such - in the best way she knew how.

You'll find that in the introverted/extroverted personality spectrum, a good number of those on the introverted side of the scale tend to feel that public approval for matters of private worship is an affront and a trespass on what they deem sacred.

Fair enough. The "patch of white in a sea of gold" conjured images of a bulletin board with gold stars and a conspicuous band of white where your sister's non-compliance was publicly chronicled.

If that's not the case, then it's not the case.

For the record, I was neither accusing nor criticizing your sister- merely commenting on the ironies involved.

Interestingly enough, I can understand her position, as I'm something of an introvert myself.

[hagoth7]

For the record, I was neither accusing nor criticizing your sister- merely commenting on the ironies involved.

The irony, in my opinion, is that seminary instruction, which is intended to instill a love for the Savior, was encouraging people to publicly trumpet their scripture-reading alms.

The irony, in my opinion, was that peer pressure (worrying about approval from others) was used in a class that was intended to teach people to love God (and worry about His approval first and foremost).

I can understand why a teacher would attempt to utilize such methods.

But I can also understand why such public displays led some kids to close their books. For the very last time.

But I digress. The thread isn't about seminary or scripture reading. It's about FoS.

[Brenda]

I'll put it another way.

My sister, who was a year ahead of me in school, but light-years ahead of me in other things, was asked by her seminary teacher to read the Book of Mormon, and to mark her progress on a public chart.

She said no thankyou.

Yet she completed reading the book promptly, acquired a testimony of it.

She simply left her chart blank. A white gap of paper - in the midst of a sea of gold stars.

I have great admiration for her for that.

I believe it is part of what made her who she is.

And it is part of what galvanized her through some of the struggles she later waded through, and conquered.

She would of course kick me in the shins for airing that story.

But I believe it demonstrates something of value...worth considering.

Many of her other seminary friends have since lost all faith in God.

As Kohn says, extrinsic (external) rewards tend to rob people of intrinsic (internal) rewards/motivation.

In spiritual things, it can even suffocate the soul.

Thoughts?

Some people need the progress charts and some don't. We're all different.

[hagoth7]

Some people need the progress charts...

I understand how charting one's progress helps with the goal-achievement process.

However, I don't see how making such a chart public fills a (good) spiritual need (or desire).

Same with a merit badge. Or an advancement.

...and some don't.

It goes far beyond the issue of some NOT needing it.

It goes to the issue of such things driving the people away by such external methods.

In many cases...good people. Quiet, humble people.

The question is....if such things are imposed upon all...regardless of need or preference...what of those for which such things become a stumbling block? Do you have any idea how many seminary students who got off to a bad start stopped trying? (Some have reading impairments.) What then? Do you think such a public chart depicting them as slackers makes them want to show up for seminary the next week? Or the next?

And they may be the ones who could benefit from seminary the most.

So did it help some read a book? No doubt.

But at what cost? Both to them who finished - and to them for which public display becomes a turnoff?

We're all different.

Understood. As I said:

You'll find that in the introverted/extroverted personality spectrum, a good number of those on the introverted side of the scale tend to feel that public approval for matters of private worship is an affront and a trespass on what they deem sacred.

I understand what you're saying.

Have you understood my concern?

[hagoth7]

Fair enough. The "patch of white in a sea of gold" conjured images of a bulletin board with gold stars and a conspicuous band of white where your sister's non-compliance was publicly chronicled.

I should add this:

Her name was not the only one followed by white (or mostly-white) space.

There were others.

Most of their seats became empty in subsequent days and weeks.

Hence...my concern...for external rewards (in seminary or scouting)...when such a rewards program becomes a stumblingblock for many youth, most of them humble, who are wired for the more quiet payback (that can be more meaningful and lasting).

Are there some who end up navigating that minefield, coming out Eagle, and being decent, hardworking, caring people?

Yep.

But of those who fall by the wayside, what of them?

Too bad, so sad?

Were they rocky soil? Or was the seed bad?

(I'm not insisting scouting is bad. Or tracking progress is bad. Just the rigid externalizing, publicizing of certain aspects of it can be a disservice to a growing number of youth.)

Scouting is a secular program. As such, it can be adapted by inspired local leaders for the needs of today's youth.

[ERayR]

To preface for Hagoth7, I am not an ardent scouting program fan the way it is done today.

I have five sons who participated in scouting to varying degrees. One achieved his Eagle rank. All have achieved in life to varying degrees. I attribute some of the success of some of those boys to lessons they learned in scouting. I could be wrong but I don't think so.

[mfbukowski]

Interestingly enough, I can understand her position, as I'm something of an introvert myself.

Guess what?

If you're on this board, and post fairly often, that means that you are spending several (at least) hours of your life a week talking to strangers you never have to see in real life, about matters which are quite abstract and don't even interest most people.

Not exactly a behavior for one who could be described as an "extrovert". So you are not exactly alone.

[Facsimile 3]

I understand how charting one's progress helps with the goal-achievement process.

However, I don't see how making such a chart public fills a (good) spiritual need (or desire).

Same with a merit badge. Or an advancement.

It goes far beyond the issue of some NOT needing it.

It goes to the issue of such things driving the people away by such external methods.

In many cases...good people. Quiet, humble people.

The question is....if such things are imposed upon all...regardless of need or preference...what of those for which such things become a stumbling block? Do you have any idea how many seminary students who got off to a bad start stopped trying? (Some have reading impairments.) What then? Do you think such a public chart depicting them as slackers makes them want to show up for seminary the next week? Or the next?

And they may be the ones who could benefit from seminary the most.

So did it help some read a book? No doubt.

But at what cost? Both to them who finished - and to them for which public display becomes a turnoff?

I read your account of your sister's experience and like viewing a picture I imported my views on things in the character of your sister.

I imagined your sister as a nonconformist who knew the gospel was true and took pride in marching to the beat of you own drum. I imagined no sadness on her part, but rather, a sense of being comfortable with herself and not caring about what others thought.

Sort of a girl verion of the main character from the movie Rushmore.

Now moving on to your other points.

I really feel like you are making this way more dramatic than it needs to be. I was a total slacker in High School and never marked any chart for scripture mastery (because I didn't do it). None of my peers ever vocally told me I was worthless for not doing so and I always felt like people were just happy I came (as has been my experience in all Church youth programs. Oh, and I did have reading impairments too.

Here is what it really comes down to. MOST kids for a good portion of their seminary education only go because they feel they have to fulfill either a duty to their parents or to God. MOST don't love the experience nor do they go because of a love for learning Spiritual things. Do you remember being a teenager just out of curiosity?

Many people, teenager or adult, can have a testimony that Jesus lives and that the LDS Church is true and still not have a desire to follow Christ or make the "sacrifices" the Church requires (many teenagers fit this category); having a desire to do these things is part of "conversion." The miracle of Seminary is that it (by virtue of habit and repetition) burns into each student a map of how to find conversion on their own when they are finally ready. A good number of my friends and I all had this experience.

I knew what the Spirit felt like. I knew the basic plot lines of the Book of Mormon and the Bible (from going to Church and Seminary). Most importantly, like a spike driven into stone, I knew that when I finally was in enough trouble or so lost that I could not discern any kind of direction, I could get on my knees and ask my Heavenly Father for the Spirit to direct me. When the time came that my eyes were fully opened to the fact that putting off the Spirit and being the natural man was not bringing me the joy I desired, when I felt totally without direction, my seminary survival skills kicked in (in a Jason Bourne kind of way) and I began my path to conversion to the Gospel of Jesus Christ (I'm still being converted or 'becoming' a disciple of Jesus Christ).

Anyway, getting back to the stickers. They didn't offend me, I never heard of anyone who dropped out of seminary (a few of my friends) really caring about the visual benchmarks. I did know a lot of kids who LIKED those benchmarks because kids like those kinds of things in general. If this appeals at some kind of primitive human level for motivation, I think the means lead to a very good end.

[Facsimile 3]

Guess what?

If you're on this board, and post fairly often, that means that you are spending several (at least) hours of your life a week talking to strangers you never have to see in real life, about matters which are quite abstract and don't even interest most people.

Not exactly a behavior for one who could be described as an "extrovert". So you are not exactly alone.

It's true.

I'll admit membership in the introverted crowd, but not the socially retarded.... handicapped.....disabled..impaired crowd which exists on these boards as well.

[Brenda]

I am the first to agree that scouting is a big pain in the you-know-where. That's probably because dealing with 8-15 year old boys is a big pain in the same place, IMO. However, I believe in scouting. The goal of scouting is not to teach them skills, or to fill up sashes with badges. The goal is to get them on a mission because if they go on a mission, then they will go to the temple, likely be married in the temple, etc.

Boys learn best by doing and having fun while doing. They don't learn as well by sitting in a classroom or reading a text book. It's also to give them yet another adult mentor who cares about them. If a boy is a square peg not fitting into the round scouting hole, then taylor the program to fit the square peg. That takes an adult leader who's sensitive to the boy's need, and in tune with the Spirit. Scouting can go a million directions to fit the interests of any boy. And learning how to set a goal and finish it is a skill we all need, square or round pegs alike.

BTW, when I was in Primary, we had those "bandalos"(?) that we filled with little patches and jewels earned by accomplishments. Mine was the emptiest one in my class because I didn't have a mom to oversee my progress. Yet I still see the value in it. Instead of tossing out the whole program, how about working with the child who needs the help and letting them experience the success and pride of achievement. IOW, maybe it's not the program at fault, but possibly the neglectful adult.

[hagoth7]

...Instead of tossing out the whole program...

?

Huh?

That's not at all what I'm suggesting.

...maybe it's not the program at fault, but possibly the neglectful adult...

? Parental fault?

Is there a need to create unnecessary homework for parents?

Parents are already busy.

They already have school homework their kids need help/support with most evenings.

And the parents have their own callings and home chores that need attention most nights.

And family home evening. And home/visiting teaching. And home/visiting teachers coming to their home.

And genealogy, temple work, writing family histories, etc.

Why heap guilt on parents...for a secular program no parent need feel guilty about?

[hagoth7]

I really feel like you are making this way more dramatic than it needs to be.

Which part?

The part about attrition in the church during the scouting years?

What is it about that scenario [feel free to remove every ounce of narrative] that isn't dramatic?

Do you remember being a teenager just out of curiosity?

Vividly.

I knew what the Spirit felt like. I knew the basic plot lines of the Book of Mormon and the Bible (from going to Church and Seminary). Most importantly, like a spike driven into stone, I knew that when I finally was in enough trouble or so lost that I could not discern any kind of direction, I could get on my knees and ask my Heavenly Father for the Spirit to direct me. When the time came that my eyes were fully opened to the fact that putting off the Spirit and being the natural man was not bringing me the joy I desired, when I felt totally without direction, my seminary survival skills kicked in (in a Jason Bourne kind of way) and I began my path to conversion to the Gospel of Jesus Christ (I'm still being converted or 'becoming' a disciple of Jesus Christ).

Was this Utah release-time seminary?

Or early-morning seminary?

Anyway, getting back to the stickers. They didn't offend me, I never heard of anyone who dropped out of seminary (a few of my friends) really caring about the visual benchmarks.

When you answer the above questions, I'd like to touch on that....if you're willing.

I did know a lot of kids who LIKED those benchmarks because kids like those kinds of things in general. If this appeals at some kind of primitive human level for motivation, I think the means lead to a very good end.

I hear what you and Brenda are saying.

I look forward to your answers - because I think we may be talking from different paradigms here.

[hagoth7]

To preface for Hagoth7...I have five sons who participated in scouting to varying degrees. One achieved his Eagle rank. All have achieved in life to varying degrees. I attribute some of the success of some of those boys to lessons they learned in scouting.

Sounds like a reasonable conclusion.

I have no reason to doubt your assessment.

What are your thoughts on your sons' friends who left during the scouting years?

Or some of your own friends who may have done likewise.

Was there anything gathered from interactions with them which might provide some commentary on how (or whether) various aspects of the program might have played a role in their departure?

[Facsimile 3]

Which part?

The part about attrition in the church during the scouting years?

What is it about that scenario [feel free to remove every ounce of narrative] that ISN'T dramatic?

Your interpretation of your sister's experience was overly dramatic in my opinion.

Vividly.

Was this Utah seminary?

Or early-morning seminary?

Utah seminary.

When you answer the above questions, I'd like to touch on that....if you're willing.

I hear what you and Brenda are saying.

I look forward to your answers - because I think we may be talking from different paradigms here.

LOL the Utah paradigm vs. the out of state paradigm.

[BrotherDiaz]

Well this is quite the interesting topic. As one who is a convert, not raised in the LDS faith or the scouting program (though I had a light brush with it in elementary school), and also as one who is not of the stereotypical Utah/western Mormon culture, I suppose I would have different views than those of my faith on the other side. While I personally don't have the greatest interest in scouts (and I can think of one guy in what used to be my young mens group who hated it), I can see it having a good effect for different people, and teaching some basic skills that can be useful in some ways. I also have found it (at least for me personally, and I've seen it in the other guys too) to be a great way to bond. Some of my most vivid memories were out in the woods in Raymond NH on scout camp overnighters. I can think of one deacon who absolutely excels at scouts (though he has a knack for catching on to things quick in general, love him for that). I think it is important for each person, each parent, to weigh the pros and cons of each, keeping in mind the interests of their children, and asking for their input as well. It is just yet another resource that the Church has put stock in, though I don't see it as an imperative.

[wenglund]

I understand how charting one's progress helps with the goal-achievement process. However, I don't see how making such a chart public fills a (good) spiritual need (or desire). Same with a merit badge. Or an advancement.

At the risk of contributing to the much ado being made about a relatively benign progress chart, may I point out that such forms of public recognition have long proven, on balance, to be effective pedagogical strategies, which not only have, on balance, a positive motivational impact, but also act as a way of training young minds in self-monitoring and self-accountability and other desirable tools of progress. It is similar, in principle, to calling on students to work out math problems in front of the class. For what it is worth.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[BrotherDiaz]

As for the whole thing with the Scouting execs, if they really are abusing that money for the things of the world, and not keeping the heart and goal of scouting at heart, than shame on them. I don't think I would ever personally donate to such a thing as FoS if I found that to be the way it is for them. I can just as easily bring my own future sons (and daughters) camping, or let them go on campouts with the YM that don't require payment to go.

[hagoth7]

Your interpretation of your sister's experience was overly dramatic in my opinion.

?

It was a significantly dramatic experience for her.

But I don't expect everyone to feel the same way about it...especially third-hand.

Utah seminary. LOL the Utah paradigm vs. the out of state paradigm.

I must be missing the punchline. What was funny?

From the perspective of the youth, release time seminary is a *very* different dynamic than early-morning seminary.

You think getting a kid up for a regular school schedule is tough?

Try getting them to get up two hours earlier for something they're not sure they care about.

Day after day.

Then add a disincentive or two from within that class - that offends their sensibilities - or their sense of self worth -and see how quickly some of those same kids decide to stay in bed a little longer just to avoid the unwelcome drama - however insignificant you might deem that drama to be.

Until you've grown up in a town/school with only a handful of people who share your faith, you underestimate the ripple effects that withdrawing from seminary - or from the young men's program - can have on a young person. You think my sister's story was overly dramatic? (I thought it was relatively benign.) Then I'll spare you the details of what happened to some in my teenage town who bailed on the YM's program.

It's great that things turned out well for you.

However, in the outreaches of Zion, a vast number have been falling through the cracks.

(For example, in my new ward, the active members of my quorum are outnumbered 20:1 by the inactive.)

And you can bet your boots that a significant number of them went inactive during their scouting years.

So, in such a context, am I still being overdramatic?

Should I just hit the snooze, pull the blankets over my head, and not give a damn?

[Facsimile 3]

I must be missing the punchline. What was funny?

I laughed because I predicted THIS:

Until you've grown up in a town/school with only a handful of people who share your faith, you underestimate the ripple effects that withdrawing from seminary - or from the young men's program - can have on a young person.

[Facsimile 3]

From the perspective of the youth, release time seminary is a *very* different dynamic than early-morning seminary.

You think getting a kid up for a regular school schedule is tough? Try getting them to get up two hours earlier for something they're not sure they care about. Day after day. Then add a disincentive or two from within that class - that offends their sensibilities - or their sense of self worth -and see how quickly some of those same kids decide to stay in bed a little longer just to avoid the unwelcome drama - however insignificant you might deem that drama to be.

OK, I could argue that there were very different pressures growing up going to a High School with 80% LDS membership and that you out of staters didn't have to be subjected to either.

I served a mission in Fresno California. I got to know my members very well because they give you referrals or help you teach the missionary lessons. I saw the sacrifices their kids had to make and I was able to teach early morning seminary a few times. My experience with the California seminary youth was very similar to my experience with the youth in my Utah seminary classes.

If you have served a mission you can empathize for the early morning seminary students in many ways.

You think my sister's story was overly dramatic? (I thought it was relatively benign.) Then I'll spare you the details of what happened to some in my teenage town who bailed on the YM's program.

I feel that the way you presented your sister's story was OVERLY DRAMATIC. Engage me on that.

It's great that things turned out well for you.

However, in the outreaches of Zion, a vast number have been falling through the cracks.

(For example, in my new ward, the active members of my quorum are outnumbered 25:1 by the inactive.)

Again, I served a mission. I worked with less actives every day. I've seen the front lines and loved every minute of it. Zion is anywhere there is a stake.

[Facsimile 3]

Just to be clear the bold is where I think the epicenter of you being overly dramatic is located.

I'll put it another way.

My sister, who was a year ahead of me in school, but light-years ahead of me in other things, was asked by her seminary teacher to read the Book of Mormon, and to mark her progress on a public chart.

She said no thankyou.

Yet she completed reading the book promptly, acquired a testimony of it.

She simply left her chart blank. A white gap of paper - in the midst of a sea of gold stars.

I have great admiration for her for that.

I believe it is part of what made her who she is.

And it is part of what galvanized her through some of the struggles she later waded through, and conquered.

[Facsimile 3]

Also hagoth7, just because I crave context. Were you raised LDS? I saw something about you aspiring to be a Catholic Apologist in another thread and I'm kind of confused. Did your sister convert from Catholicism to the LDS Faith?