The Church and Immigration Policy

[USU78]

USU78:

I was as self absorbed as the next teenager when I was a teenager. Many Many moons ago.

If I wanted extra spending money I got a job outside our home. First mowing lawns on a weekly basis(at 10), then delivering news papers(at 14), and then working in restaurants(at 17). But there was no compulsion from my parents, other than my personal desire for more personal spending money. I treated my children the same way. No compulsion, but their own desire for more personal money. They all had jobs growing up, and are successful, and resourceful adults now.

I don't see my 5 Grandkids as being any different, though all except one is way too young for a job at this time.

And that's a credit to your parents, whose efforts now bear fruit generationally.

Me? I, the youngest of 4 brothers, took my turn the summer after my 7th grade year picking cherries (sweet and sour). 3 summers later I'm hoeing cantaloupe, picking cukies, picking peaches, parting vines, beating on trees, working the automated sour-cherry machinery, running the packing shed and crew, doing the payroll for the pickers (both local and seasonal), and changing the irrigation pipes with the boss's grandson.

I'd've never done it without peer pressure, family pressure, and the memory of my mother and her middle finger with the thimble on it thwacking up on the top of the head, or the yardstick she broke over my head, or her way of pinching a tiny bit of skin of my left tricep, and I was a mess until that 3 summers later. Absolutely useless. And not worth the $.35 an hour I was being paid.

Money just doesn't motivate the affluent offspring of our generation unless its value is acquired in one's bones. That is what's lost. Wanna talk about unemployment among youth? Well, some of that is profound dysfunction acquired from dysfunctional parents, some of that is just living in the wrong place, but a whole lot of that is the unavailability of minimum-wage jobs for teens (and, maybe just a little bit of laziness in employers who don't get it that part of their duty is to help train youth).

[Bob Crockett]

I

Sally and Johnny and Mary and Jose all did it, so Ahmed and Lenny and Lisa and Marisol should be able to. Others "getting away with it" is no basis for establishing an immigration policy. Let Ahmed and Lenny and Lisa and Marisol join the 1,000,000 each year that do it legally.

I think the measured and thoughtful discussion of immigration policy goes far beyond whether they are here "legally." Simply saying, "well, solve it by becoming legal" ignores a host of questions the thoughtful Christian might be asking, and what immigration pundits contemplate.

Is the current immigration policy directed against unskilled Latin Americans (as opposed to skilled Canadians or Englishmen with jobs waiting) fair? Is it fair when compared to the historical immigration policies that got our ancestors in the country?

Do we need or want to be fair? [My libertarian studies teach that in a society with a relatively stable police and political force, cheap and unskilled labor will lead to a positive addition to the overall welfare levels of society.) Should we deny access to the United States of America the descendants of Native Americans, particularly in areas which were seized by the point of gun from the Mexico after a feigned provocation along the Texas border? (Just sort of a provoking way of describing the issue; I'm not all that signed on to it.)

Is it a legitimate government expenditure to build a fence, to engage in border security like we do?

But, more importantly, what do we do with the people that are already here? Deny them from our wards and branches? Deny them priesthood leadership? Grant them amnesty like Reagan did; like Bush and Clinton proposed? Should we deny them essential civil rights? Deny them essential economic opportunity? Access to medical care? Jobs?

[BCSpace]

I think the measured and thoughtful discussion of immigration policy goes far beyond whether they are here "legally." Simply saying, "well, solve it by becoming legal" ignores a host of questions the thoughtful Christian might be asking, and what immigration pundits contemplate.

One of the dumbest things I've ever seen. But it's a typical left wing reaction to conclusions not in their favor. Kind of like Obama's "wrongly decided" mantra. We've already had measured and thoughtful discussion that resulted in the constitution and the various laws we have. Following the constitution and enforcing the law is all that remains to be done.

But, more importantly, what do we do with the people that are already here? Deny them from our wards and branches? Deny them priesthood leadership? Should we deny them essential civil rights? Deny them essential economic opportunity? Access to medical care? Jobs?

Yes. We should not legalize or legitmize crime.

Grant them amnesty like Reagan did; like Bush and Clinton proposed?

No. Crime should not be rewarded.

[Debroux]

Indeed. And look what happened to them.

What are you saying?

Our European ancestors came here illegally and killed the indigenous tribes simply because they had better military technology.

It is hypocrisy to complain about illegal immigration when technically, we're all illegal immigrants. Puerto Ricans are legal immigrants and living in Florida the bigotry and racism towards them is just the same as it is elsewhere towards other latinos. The only thing that justifies the Arizona Law is racism since none of the other reasons stick. Just because some white rancher got killed, the state wants to infringe upon the rights of US citizens who are hispanic by requiring them to carry with them at all times, proof of citizenship, or else they'll be in jail.

Crime should not be rewarded you say?

I agree. Let's not reward the crimes of our ancestors' evil by allowing their posterity to enjoy these freedoms. Let's expunge ourselves from the country!

[BCSpace]

Indeed. And look what happened to them.

What are you saying?

Our European ancestors came here illegally and killed the indigenous tribes simply because they had better military technology.

Amen. It is indeed good that we have superior firepower and technology. Now let's use some of that and create a fence that will force immigration to be legal and documented.

It is hypocrisy to complain about illegal immigration when technically, we're all illegal immigrants.

Technically, we're not. I did not enter this country illegally and likely neither did you. If you want to stop these kinds of things that have happened historically, then you will create a border and guard it. The hypocrisy is only on the part of those who oppose the guarding of the border.

Crime should not be rewarded you say?

I agree. Let's not reward the crimes of our ancestors' evil by allowing their posterity to enjoy these freedoms. Let's expunge ourselves from the country!

Sure. But better yet, let's just simply stop illegal immigration now. If you have historical complaints, why are you opposed to doing something about it so that it will not happen again?

[Deborah]

Our European ancestors came here illegally and killed the indigenous tribes simply because they had better military technology.

How does someone come here illegally when there were no laws regarding this in the original settling of this country?

My ancestors came here legally through Ellis Island.

[ERayR]

USU78:

So is your solution to force teenagers, already selfabsorbed and spoiled rotten, into the low-end workforce?

Yes, at least for summer jobs. It's a good place to learn the joys of work.

[thesometimesaint]

BCSpace:

With the majority of illegals entering the US by means of airplane, you're not going to build a fence high enough.

[Senator]

The only thing that justifies the Arizona Law is racism since none of the other reasons stick.

AG Eric Holder doesn't think so.

Just because some white rancher got killed,

Be careful how lightly you say that!

[BCSpace]

How does someone come here illegally when there were no laws regarding this in the original settling of this country?

A good point.

With the majority of illegals entering the US by means of airplane, you're not going to build a fence high enough.

Not quite. But a guarded fence is a pretty cheap way to take care of a little over half the problem. Checking paperwork for employers and schools will take care of most of the rest.

[Senator]

How does someone come here illegally when there were no laws regarding this in the original settling of this country?

Who says there were no laws. They were just etched onto the end of an arrow instead being written on some paper. The law was found under the subsection called, "This is our land we don't want you here".

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What are you saying?

Our European ancestors came here illegally and killed the indigenous tribes simply because they had better military technology.

It is hypocrisy to complain about illegal immigration when technically, we're all illegal immigrants. Puerto Ricans are legal immigrants and living in Florida the bigotry and racism towards them is just the same as it is elsewhere towards other latinos. The only thing that justifies the Arizona Law is racism since none of the other reasons stick. Just because some white rancher got killed, the state wants to infringe upon the rights of US citizens who are hispanic by requiring them to carry with them at all times, proof of citizenship, or else they'll be in jail.

Crime should not be rewarded you say?

I agree. Let's not reward the crimes of our ancestors' evil by allowing their posterity to enjoy these freedoms. Let's expunge ourselves from the country!

Nothing but left wing social justice idealism. We who are American citizens did not come here illegally. And you have presented a very weak argument for us being here illegal.

Should we "give them the wealth"? And "give them the dignity and respect"? Is that what we should do?

And Arizon law has nothing to do with racism. Are you clueless? Have you not even been following state controlled media? 70% of Arazonians approve of the legislations. Of that 70% include hispanics that are here legally.

CFR that Arizona state law is "all about racisim".

I predict you will utterly fail at providing a single refernce for this.

[Jeff K.]

To bad the American Indians did not have a "Papers Please" law.

I would argue they did. Catastrophy reduced their ability to deal with illegal immigration. Europeans took advantage of it.

[Deborah]

Who says there were no laws. They were just etched onto the end of an arrow instead being written on some paper. The law was found under the subsection called, "This is our land we don't want you here".

Nonsense. In fact many of the Native Americans welcomed the early settlers. It was only when the settlers became greedy for land that there were problems. Even then one can argue there was no proof of ownership since many of the natives themselves did not claim to own the land.

[LeSellers]

The policy of imported, illegal labor forcing teenagers, already selfabsorbed and spoiled rotten, out of the low-end workforce is suicidal.

So is your solution to force teenagers, already selfabsorbed and spoiled rotten, into the low-end workforce?

I believe you have missed the point entirely.

Illegal aliens, by their ability to work for subpar wages, "force" the adolescents in question out of the workforce because no one will hire someone for more than he must pay.

It is not a question of forcing into the workforce, but a matter of not allowing them in (by reason of economics). If the illegal aliens were in the same economic situation as legal teenager workers, the best able to compete would win the position.

You are, once again, pandering and pushing words to limits far beyond anything the writer intend. Your comment added nothing at all to our understanding of the issue.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

With the majority of illegals entering the US by means of airplane,

CF legitimate R.

Lehi

[Vance]

So is your solution to force teenagers . . . into the low-end workforce?

I am sure that what he has in mind is leg irons and bull whips, even though he didn't say that.

[Black Moclips]

......it does seem to me that the question "are you honest in your business dealings" has no application to a person's immigration status.

WRONG. You can't be here illegally and working, without practicing all sorts of deceptions to your employer, the state government, the federal government, etc.

I say send them all back. Let them come apply legally like so many other people do. Make welfare recipients and the unemployed who take benefits work these "critical" jobs that the illegals tend to do.

[Jeff K.]

Nonsense. In fact many of the Native Americans welcomed the early settlers. It was only when the settlers became greedy for land that there were problems. Even then one can argue there was no proof of ownership since many of the natives themselves did not claim to own the land.

Not sure about the "open hearted welcome". Early interactions between native Americans and Europeans dealt more with establishing particular advantage either in war or trade. Interaction with the pilgrims for example dealt with the economic possibilities of "wampum", whereas Jamestown was left to its own devices because they thought the settlers would die off soon enough (all settlements for at least a hundred years had a 40 to 60 percent death rate). Jamestown by the way was not the first settlement known to the Chicahominy tribe. Powhatan's brother had even lived among the Spanish and in Mexico with the conquistadores. His brother was responsible for wiping out the Jesuit settlement in the Chesapeake at that time.

It wasn't open arms and welcome in any case.

[Senator]

Nonsense. In fact many of the Native Americans welcomed the early settlers. It was only when the settlers became greedy for land that there were problems. Even then one can argue there was no proof of ownership since many of the natives themselves did not claim to own the land.

Not even a little, itsy-bitsy sense?

With "many"(whatever that means) being the operative word here, we can presume then that many others felt differently, and these others therefore embodied "the law" of their land. Otherwise I guess it really was open for the taking.

[Deborah]

Not sure about the "open hearted welcome". Early interactions between native Americans and Europeans dealt more with establishing particular advantage either in war or trade.

Still there was mutual advantage in many cases. Also I didn't say "open hearted welcome". Many of the early mountain men established rapport with the native population and intermarried with them with mutual advantage in trading.

[selek]

I am sure that what he has in mind is leg irons and bull whips, even though he didn't say that.

Kinky.

But I'd always imagined Sometime Saint to be more of a feather and strawberries kinda guy.

Ironically enough, I find myself in partial agreement with the esteemed author references in the OP.

We should have a vital and liberal cross-border work policy, and migrant workers should be entitled to both a fair wage and fair working conditions.

I do, however, believe we should have a strict deportation policy and enforce the laws against illegal immigration and fraud.

Should they be able to cross the border to find work and thus escape the poverty and misery of their parent society? Certainly.

Should they be able to squat in our cities and towns and leech off of our society? Absolutely not.

[Senator]

WRONG. You can't be here illegally and working, without practicing all sorts of deceptions to your employer, the state government, the federal government, etc.

I lived in the Phoenix area for 20 yrs. On any given day you can go down to intersections such as Broadway & Mesa DR. and see large groups of illegals standing around, waiting for the various employers to drive up and wave in a half-dozen or more men into the back of their pickups.

Its guaranteed that the employers know who these individuals are. The state knows who and where they are. The Federal Gov. knows.....wait, let me back up; the Federal Gov. is clueless!

So, there's not much real deception happening in many cases.

[deadeye]

Where does honor factor into this discussion? For years we've heard anecdotal stories from our church leaders which give examples of personal honor and integrity. One that comes to mind is a child who receives too many pennies in change at a store and is made asked to walk a long distance back to turn them in because of personal honesty. Another mentions a father with a church leadership position who finds his car without fuel on Sunday morning and decides to walk to his meetings instead of breaking a personal vow to not break the sabbath day. Are these just simple stories to make us feel good, or are we to apply them in our own lives an use them to strengthen our own personal integrity and a sense of being true to our word?

With illegal aliens in the United States, there is a lot of deception taking place. When they sign an I-9 form provided by their employer and claim under penalty of perjury that they are authorized to work here, they commit a felony through deceit. If they provide forged or stolen documents in this process it is also a felony, and they're tricking an employer into breaking laws that prohibit employing illegal aliens. Those who work under the table for cash, and fail to report their earnings are guilty of tax evasion.

It's hard to reconcile this lawlessness with our mandate to live honest lives. It seems so foreign to my sense of right and wrong and integrity. What's even worse is the entitlement attitude that is seen by many illegal aliens, including converts to the church. They seem to think that our country owes them something and many take advantage of many government social programs on behalf of their US-born children. I've always been taught to seek help from your own means, then family, then church before turning to the government.

There seems to be a growing problem with financial insolvency around the world, with governments spending more money than they have available through taxes to try and prop up the economy. The situation in the United States seems precarious, with over half the population not paying any taxes and 40 Million people receiving food stamps. This doesn't seem sustainable, yet the government continues to runs ads, inviting even more people to sign up for these programs. Allowing illegal aliens to participate in this programs (via their children) is compounding the problem.

This situation also is contrary to examples from the Book of Mormon. For example, when the sons of Mosiah wanted to bring the converted people of Jershon into the Nephite lands, they sought permission and followed the Nephite laws at that time. Instead of becoming a burden on the Nephites, these "immigrants" were productive and provided food and sustenance for the Nephite armies.

When you consider the drug/human smuggler fueled violence taking place along our borders, it reminds me of the Gadianton robbers. Just this week, there have been two violent home invasions in Arizona. Yesterday, a U.S. citizen from Arizona was found murdered in Mexico, just across the border and his car was being used by members of a drug cartel to smuggle drugs.

I think those who are advocating for illegal immigration have a very myopic view and are not looking at the bigger picture. Eventually this situation could explode into civil unrest or even war.

[ttribe]

I lived in the Phoenix area for 20 yrs. On any given day you can go down to intersections such as Broadway & Mesa DR. and see large groups of illegals standing around, waiting for the various employers to drive up and wave in a half-dozen or more men into the back of their pickups.

Its guaranteed that the employers know who these individuals are. The state knows who and where they are. The Federal Gov. knows.....wait, let me back up; the Federal Gov. is clueless!

So, there's not much real deception happening in many cases.

I still live in the Phoenix area and while this scenario still plays itself out (as you've described), there continues to be rampant identity theft amongst the local illegal population; not to mention the violence and kidnappings brought in (largely) by the coyotes who smuggle people into our state.