The Church and Immigration Policy

[Senator]

I still live in the Phoenix area and while this scenario still plays itself out (as you've described), there continues to be rampant identity theft amongst the local illegal population; not to mention the violence and kidnappings brought in (largely) by the coyotes who smuggle people into our state.

ttribe,

I will agree with you that the scene has greatly deteriorated from the seemingly "innocent" days of just a couple of decades back. That was a time when we gave a self serving wink of the eye to the presence of the illegal immigrant. There was an economic demand (cheap labor) and they fit the bill. I mean, who do we think built the thousand upon thousands of homes that now stretch beyond the horizons, and that now stand empty and in foreclosure?

As the landscape now changes and laws become enforced, we see the alien taking up more devious means. I think we have to admit that its partially been a problem of our own making.

[ttribe]

As the landscape now changes and laws become enforced, we see the alien taking up more devious means. I think we have to admit that its partially been a problem of our own making.

I agree.

BTW, regarding the controversial law here in AZ, I think it's poorly written and open to abuse; it's not a good solution.

[Senator]

I agree.

BTW, regarding the controversial law here in AZ, I think it's poorly written and open to abuse; it's not a good solution.

I couldn't comment as I have not read up on it as yet.

One thing it did do well was wake people up.

[USU78]

I agree.

BTW, regarding the controversial law here in AZ, I think it's poorly written and open to abuse; it's not a good solution.

I read it, too. I've seen far worse. In the CFRs related to NAFTA on importing finished soft goods out of Mexico. Oi the pain!

[ttribe]

I read it, too. I've seen far worse. In the CFRs related to NAFTA on importing finished soft goods out of Mexico. Oi the pain!

I'm sure there are worse, but the spotlight is on this one right now.

[Bob Crockett]

[quote name='deadeye' date='11 May 2010 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1273614994' post='1208848375'

With illegal aliens in the United States, there is a lot of deception taking place. When they sign an I-9 form provided by their employer and claim under penalty of perjury that they are authorized to work here, they commit a felony through deceit. If they provide forged or stolen documents in this process it is also a felony, and they're tricking an employer into breaking laws that prohibit employing illegal aliens. Those who work under the table for cash, and fail to report their earnings are guilty of tax evasion.

[Bob Crockett]

dupe

[USU78]

honor

This is terrific, deadeye.

[Jeff K.]

Where does honor factor into this discussion? For years we've heard anecdotal stories from our church leaders which give examples of personal honor and integrity. One that comes to mind is a child who receives too many pennies in change at a store and is made asked to walk a long distance back to turn them in because of personal honesty. Another mentions a father with a church leadership position who finds his car without fuel on Sunday morning and decides to walk to his meetings instead of breaking a personal vow to not break the sabbath day. Are these just simple stories to make us feel good, or are we to apply them in our own lives an use them to strengthen our own personal integrity and a sense of being true to our word?

With illegal aliens in the United States, there is a lot of deception taking place. When they sign an I-9 form provided by their employer and claim under penalty of perjury that they are authorized to work here, they commit a felony through deceit. If they provide forged or stolen documents in this process it is also a felony, and they're tricking an employer into breaking laws that prohibit employing illegal aliens. Those who work under the table for cash, and fail to report their earnings are guilty of tax evasion.

It's hard to reconcile this lawlessness with our mandate to live honest lives. It seems so foreign to my sense of right and wrong and integrity. What's even worse is the entitlement attitude that is seen by many illegal aliens, including converts to the church. They seem to think that our country owes them something and many take advantage of many government social programs on behalf of their US-born children. I've always been taught to seek help from your own means, then family, then church before turning to the government.

There seems to be a growing problem with financial insolvency around the world, with governments spending more money than they have available through taxes to try and prop up the economy. The situation in the United States seems precarious, with over half the population not paying any taxes and 40 Million people receiving food stamps. This doesn't seem sustainable, yet the government continues to runs ads, inviting even more people to sign up for these programs. Allowing illegal aliens to participate in this programs (via their children) is compounding the problem.

This situation also is contrary to examples from the Book of Mormon. For example, when the sons of Mosiah wanted to bring the converted people of Jershon into the Nephite lands, they sought permission and followed the Nephite laws at that time. Instead of becoming a burden on the Nephites, these "immigrants" were productive and provided food and sustenance for the Nephite armies.

When you consider the drug/human smuggler fueled violence taking place along our borders, it reminds me of the Gadianton robbers. Just this week, there have been two violent home invasions in Arizona. Yesterday, a U.S. citizen from Arizona was found murdered in Mexico, just across the border and his car was being used by members of a drug cartel to smuggle drugs.

I think those who are advocating for illegal immigration have a very myopic view and are not looking at the bigger picture. Eventually this situation could explode into civil unrest or even war.

How does one reconcile polygamy which was practiced while illegal, and one presumes, with the Articles of Faith in effect?

I believe the nuance plays a part. Is it deceptive? Yes. What will happen to the deported families, should we care? On a personal basis that is.

Sometimes, I think, we are forced to respond to potential outcomes versus immediate laws in place which may create those outcomes.

[erichard]

...

When you consider the drug/human smuggler fueled violence taking place along our borders, it reminds me of the Gadianton robbers. Just this week, there have been two violent home invasions in Arizona. Yesterday, a U.S. citizen from Arizona was found murdered in Mexico, just across the border and his car was being used by members of a drug cartel to smuggle drugs.

I think those who are advocating for illegal immigration have a very myopic view and are not looking at the bigger picture. Eventually this situation could explode into civil unrest or even war.

Northern Mexico is on the verge of becoming a "narco state" --an area that has been taken over and is controlled and corrupted by drug cartels and where law enforcement is effectively nonexistent. Phoenix had become the kidnapping capital of the US.

It is insanity to not close the borders against any illegal entry from Mexico.

numbersusa.com has a lot of good arguments for much lower immigration rates and no amnesty. You should watch their gumball presentation if you have never seen it:

Gumball Presentation.

Richard

[sethpayne]

CF legitimate R.

Lehi

The official NYC population is 8M. Estimates place the *actual* population at 13M due to the presence of so many illegal immigrants.

The vast majority of these immigrants are from the DR and from Puerto Rico -- NOT Mexico. Jet Blue flies into both places and so many come here to visit legal family members and simply never leave.

[gmormon]

The official NYC population is 8M. Estimates place the *actual* population at 13M due to the presence of so many illegal immigrants.

The vast majority of these immigrants are from the DR and from Puerto Rico -- NOT Mexico. Jet Blue flies into both places and so many come here to visit legal family members and simply never leave.

Correct me if I am wrong , but isn't Puerto Rico a US Territory so how could they be classfied as illegal immigrants?

[USU78]

The official NYC population is 8M. Estimates place the *actual* population at 13M due to the presence of so many illegal immigrants.

The vast majority of these immigrants are from the DR and from Puerto Rico -- NOT Mexico. Jet Blue flies into both places and so many come here to visit legal family members and simply never leave.

I guess what was written in 1958 is still true today:

Immigrant goes to America,

Many hellos in America;

Nobody knows in America

Puerto Rico's in America!

[Jeff K.]

It is US territory and Puerto Ricans receive a US Passport. Best of both worlds.

[gmormon]

It is US territory and Puerto Ricans receive a US Passport. Best of both worlds.

So if they don't have their US Passport, (which by definition doesn't this make them a US Citizen,) on them and they get pulled over in Arizona does this make them illegal immigrants?

[thesometimesaint]

gmormon:

I and a good many Americans don't have a passport. I guess we better stay away from Arizona.

[ttribe]

gmormon:

I and a good many Americans don't have a passport. I guess we better stay away from Arizona.

This is one of the reasons I said this law was poorly written. The documentation requirements can be problematic for even legitimate citizens.

[gmormon]

gmormon:

I and a good many Americans don't have a passport. I guess we better stay away from Arizona.

...but I am willing to bet you have other legal documents which prove you are legal!!! I am also pretty sure they have some of the same documents ie Driver's License for example. I am not questioning Arizona's new law I am more interested in what is Puerto Ricans and other US Territories Citizens legal/illegal status is when they visit in the states

[thesometimesaint]

ttribe:

Agreed. Considering who wrote the bill. It is having its desired effects.

http://www.gregpalast.com/behind-the-arizona-immigration-lawgop-game-to-swipe-the-november-election/

[USU78]

This is one of the reasons I said this law was poorly written. The documentation requirements can be problematic for even legitimate citizens.

Of course, the fact that federal law has required possession of such documents since 1952 is of no consequence in this conversation.

"Show me your green card" has been in the vocabulary of law enforcement since at least those days.

[ttribe]

Of course, the fact that federal law has required possession of such documents since 1952 is of no consequence in this conversation.

"Show me your green card" has been in the vocabulary of law enforcement since at least those days.

I didn't say it wasn't relevant, at all. It's the much wider net this law is casting.

[thesometimesaint]

USU78:

I don't have a Green Card. If I were stopped on the streets of Arizona, how could I prove that I was here legally? I doubt many of us carry around our birth certificates. Given the Birthers even that might not be good enough.

[USU78]

I didn't say it wasn't relevant, at all. It's the much wider net this law is casting.

Not according to the Maricopa County Sheriff. He is reported all over the place as saying his office's policy previously incorporated and now incorporates the "lemme see your green card" where reasonable suspicion exists. It's kinda like the seatbelt law in Utah: they won't pull you over for it, but they will give a look-see and decide whether to charge you if you're pulled over for something else.

The "reasonable suspicion" concerns the possible commission of an offense. The green card stuff is secondary . . . and simply gives law enforcement the ability to take statistics on what offenses are committed by illegals(which they're presently prohibited from keeping track of) and add a state misdemeanor (Class B, if I recall, without re-reading the very short bill -- lazy, you see) to whatever the legal "stop" justifies charging.

[ttribe]

Not according to the Maricopa County Sheriff. He is reported all over the place as saying his office's policy previously incorporated and now incorporates the "lemme see your green card" where reasonable suspicion exists. It's kinda like the seatbelt law in Utah: they won't pull you over for it, but they will give a look-see and decide whether to charge you if you're pulled over for something else.

The "reasonable suspicion" concerns the possible commission of an offense. The green card stuff is secondary . . . and simply gives law enforcement the ability to take statistics on what offenses are committed by illegals(which they're presently prohibited from keeping track of) and add a state misdemeanor (Class B, if I recall, without re-reading the very short bill -- lazy, you see) to whatever the legal "stop" justifies charging.

You realize that I live in Maricopa County, right? Furthermore, I've discussed this with a friend who is a Maricopa County Deputy; I know whereof I speak.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

USU78:

I don't have a Green Card. If I were stopped on the streets of Arizona, how could I prove that I was here legally? I doubt many of us carry around our birth certificates. Given the Birthers even that might not be good enough.

Instead of a plea of ignornce why don't you get knowledge about what was actually passed. And try to get it from a more knowledgeable soure than Keith Olberman.