Exaltaion requirements

[Maidservant]

Specifically speaking, salvation refers to a bodily resurrection. When one is resurrected one is "saved" from physical death, or "the grave".

Jimg, great words.

I did want to mention to the other Jim, that, see I don't even agree with jimg's definition of "salvation". I do agree with the concept that we will be resurrected bodily. But I call "salvation" when Jesus rescues us from the power of the devil which happens in the NOW. Jimg might agree with me on that concept, but he might not apply the term salvation to it.

The point being is that one cannot argue TERMS, we have to argue CONCEPTS, because terms are not quite as important in LDS and can be used in different places.

Maybe salvation could cover all the marvelous things Jesus can do for us through his power, atonement and grace?

[Calm]

Should the women be silence in the churches? YES.. As everyone else should be so that all may hear.. That was a problem in the ancient world.. The churches were configured to put women in the back of the hall. The women would sometimes cause a disturbance because they could hear what was going on.. This caused Paul to tell them to let their husband teach them at home.. Paul didn't tell us we had to separate the sexes and women at least in most Christian churches don't cause a disturbance.

CFR please

[jimg]

Jimg, great words.

I did want to mention to the other Jim, that, see I don't even agree with jimg's definition of "salvation". I do agree with the concept that we will be resurrected bodily. But I call "salvation" when Jesus rescues us from the power of the devil which happens in the NOW. Jimg might agree with me on that concept, but he might not apply the term salvation to it.

I understand where you are coming from, James. I was raised in the Baptist church and instant salvation and OSAS was taught there. This allows me to put myself in the other fellows shoes in these areas. A quick word about "salvation"..................LDS do not consider themselves "saved" until they "arrive" at their destination. We must "endure to the end" as the scripture states.

As long as we have our free agency to do as we please, there is always the option of "jumping ship" before we arrive at the destination port. The Lord is not going to keep us on the ship against our will. To avoid confusion, let me say that I am not talking about the "salvation" one gains by being resurrected. It's hard to explain LDS teachings in thimble size batches, especially on the internet.

But I have a question....you seem pretty well read concerning things LDS. (Although you don't seem to understand what they mean). Were you once a member of the LDS Church? Also, it's a puzzle to me why you spend so much time researching things LDS and spending so much time on this forum? Do you consider yourself as one who is going to "teach the Mormons" where they are wrong and point out to them the perceived fallacies in their religion?

Just wondering what your motivation is.

Jim in Texas

[Daniel Peterson]

I am a Trinitarian Christian.. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are that one true God.. Three separate and distinct persons each fully God yet these three are the one true and living God.. This is the only doctrine that makes the full Bile true. For The Father is called God in the scripture, Jesus is called God on the scripture, and the Holy Spirit is called God in the scripture but the scripture in clear The Lord our God is one Lord.. If we use the Hebrew words for Lord and God in the passage it's even more clear.. YHWH our Elohim is one YHWH.. Jesus claimed to be that YHWH in John 8:58.. The same words God used to tell Moses what His name is at the burning bush.. 'I AM'.. To add any other Gods to a list of deity is to deny God's word on the matter "Before Me was No God formed neither will there be after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).. You don't have to believe any of this I just answered your question " how can there be more than one god yet only one God?" and "What did Jesus mean when he said, " To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."" IHS jim

I'm very pleased to see that you hold to the true doctrine of deity, like the Latter-day Saints.

Truly, you may not be far from the Kingdom of God.

[jimg]

Jimg, great words.

Maidservant, sorry about the misdirection of my last post. I thought I had it directed to James so please read it with that in mind. I'm still trying to figure out how to get around here. I got one post about halfway done earlier today and accidently pressed some key (I don't know which one) on the bottom of my keyboard and my half-written post deleted itself and the computer went back to the desktop. It was time for a break anyway.

[BCSpace]

When the Bible is clear that the leaders of the Church are to have ONE wife would you be willing as a member of the LDS to go against that teaching if your Prophet said the time had come to make it part of the "gospel" again..

Your "gospel" interpretation conflicts with some of the orignal views. For example:

Again, Jacob the son of Isaac is charged with having committed a great crime because he had four wives. But here there is no ground for a criminal accusation: for a plurality of wives was no crime when it was the custom; and it is a crime now, because it is no longer the custom. There are sins against nature, and sins against custom, and sins against the laws. In which, then, of these senses did Jacob sin in having a plurality of wives? As regards nature, he used the women not for sensual gratification, but for the procreation of children. For custom, this was the common practice at that time in those countries. And for the laws, no prohibition existed. The only reason of its being a crime now to do this, is because custom and the laws forbid it.

Augustine, Reply to Faustus 22:47, in NPNF Series 1, 4:288

...but this is not suprising since your doctrine is founded in the universal apostasy of the early Church. In addition, just because plural marriage was forbidden to bishops and deacons doesn't mean such was not practiced. The possibility that the mystery of marriage, part of the esoteric rites, included plural and spiritual marriages is quite high.

you be willing as a member of the LDS to go against that teaching if your Prophet said the time had come to make it part of the "gospel" again

I would expect the true Church in this day an age to have plural marriage as part of it's doctrine according to verses like...

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:21

[James Banta]

So many errors, so little time.

First off, LDS do believe that the wicked will go to hell but that their time in hell is finite (i.e. David thanks the Lord that He will not leave his soul in hell) It is after this finite period that those souls are resurrected and inherit the lowest kingdom of glory.

Secondly, God is not a name, James, it is a title. In the same way that Father, King, Lord, Master and Rabbi are titles. It is a title than inherently implies a relationship. We reverence and worship our Eternal Father, thus He is our god. This is why He told us not to have other gods before Him - you see, He understood that "God" connotes our feelings about Him not His independent power and glory. Even if the heavens were populated with an endless concourse of all-righteous, all-knowing, all-powerful gods - only our Father would be our "God" because it is only through Him that we have salvation.

And if there were such chorus of gods would the Father know about them?

Isaiah 44:8

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Joseph Smith seemed to know about them why doesn't God? Was God lying?

And the Name of God is given to Moses in:

Exod 3:14

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

You know Jesus claimed that to be this Being don't you?

John 8:58

Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

If you don't think that He was claiming to be God the Jews did the next verse shows them preparing to stone Him for blasphemy.. The word Translated God is elohim.. This can mean a number of things and can only be properly translated as it relates to the context of a passage.. It can mean judges, it can mean rulers, it can mean idols, or it can mean YHWH (I AM).. I was using it to refer to YHWH..

There is One God.. Though your own prophet (Joseph Smith) taught that there were three Gods, you have modified his teachings to make the Father the only God of Mormonism.. Smith taught:

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it! (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473-479)

No matter how you try to explain it Smith has made the God of the LDS church so unbiblical it can't be defended.. The BofM could be read to agree with what you are saying when it teaches that there is One God.. It teaching that God is a Spirit is a bit harder to deal with.. But Smith changed the nature of God more than once through the years.. All this time and the Church has held that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Three separate and distinct Persons are the one true God.. That has been the teaching of the Church since Jesus proclaimed Himself to be YHWH.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

You are taking it out of context by just pointing to the first 6 verses to subsantiate your point. If you even just add one verse on to that, verse 7 explains the "conditions of this law". So basically it is saying. . .

Servant Joseph, you inquired of this polygamy, let me lay it out for you. First you need to understand Celestial Marriage. . . .now let's see how polygamy ties in. Take the whole section into consideration of what it is saying.

Since I have shown that the reason Smith asked God for instruction is because of the Polygamy he saw in the OT. That is the context of not just these 6 verses but the context and purpose for the entire "revelation"..Again I understand if you disagree, I don't believe you have to agree with me to be a good person (as people go, that is)..

Hey I am not here to destroy Mormonism, I am here to lift up my Lord.. Because you said they were the same God I have to show the differences between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity.. This is personal, in that I want as many as possible avoid the Lake of Fire. I am not looking to hurt anyone personally. It will be hurtful to see so many good people cast in because of the error on one man, Joseph Smith.. See I love in Sandy, Utah.. The LDS people are my family, my neighbors, and my friends.. I have only concern for the welfare of the mormon people... IHS jim

[BCSpace]

And if there were such chorus of gods would the Father know about them?

Isaiah 44:8

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Joseph Smith seemed to know about them why doesn't God? Was God lying

Better to ask if God was lying in Deuteronomy 32:7-9 where we see one God giving Jehovah (another God) his portion or Exodus 20:304 where the first two of the ten commandments are redundant unless there is a plurality of Gods. The fact of the matter is that the Isaiah 40-45 set is about Gods created for the Israelites to worship. What about the NT where Paul in Corinthians mentions the existence of other real and divine Gods as well asthe only way mentioned in the scriptures about how other Gods aaare created; Theosis?

And the Name of God is given to Moses in:

Exod 3:14

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

You know Jesus claimed that to be this Being don't you?

John 8:58

Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

That's Jehovah (Jesus Christ). What about his father?

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20:17

It's almost as if the other christians have "exegesis'd" all the critical doctrine out of the Bible.

[BCSpace]

Hey I am not here to destroy Mormonism, I am here to lift up my Lord.

Leave him up there all you want but you should know that Christ came down from the cross 2000 years ago. The bottom line is that the LDS Church has THE absolute monopoly on correct Biblical interpretation. It's impossible to criticize the LDS Church's doctrine without attacking the Bible and this is seen in every example you've posted.

[James Banta]

[name=Jason' date='31 October 2009 - 12:42 PM' timestamp='1257014571' post='1208744840]

So James, you have said that you know that commandments to build an ark, sacrifice one's son etc. in the Bible are given to specific people and need not be fulfilled by everyone. How do you tell when the Bible is speaking to the people of that day as opposed to everyone. The "bishops shall have one wife" idea, for instance - how do you tell if that is a commandment to everyone or just to that people at that time?

Come on Jason.. The commandments to Noah, and Abraham were given to then personally as a one time thing..God said "NOAH you do this" and "Abraham you do that" God even promised to never flood the earth again..No more would an ARK be required.. You are not required to have a boat unless like me you enjoy sailing.. Some people misuse boats and ski behind them, or fish from them God gave us the example of the Faith in Abraham.. God has made it clear that the sacrifice of our Children is not of Him.. God gave these commandments directly to them.. Paul command for the proper leadership of the Church was for the CHURCH.. God said "This is the requirement for those who will be called to lead My Church. The Church is not just one person but all who have become children of Jesus by faith.. It's like the Ten Commandments.. Given to all the people not just commandants for Moses to keep.. God doesn't change and didn't in these commandment.. He in no way would have allowed Abraham to sacrifice His son and He didn't..

Since the temple was destroyed in AD 70 God has been using the Church in His dealing with the world.. Paul explain that He lived in the last days.. Until God wills we shall be in those days.. The teaching of the Apostles are the doctrine of the Church just as the Law was the doctrine of the children of Israel. The Bible is God's word it is immutable.. It's teaching are the word of God for those that trust Him.. By what you ask I wonder do you really trust your god? IHS jim

[mercyngrace]

And if there were such chorus of gods would the Father know about them?

Isaiah 44:8

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Joseph Smith seemed to know about them why doesn't God? Was God lying?

He does and No. In fact, Paul explained the exact process by which Christ became exalted.

And the Name of God is given to Moses in:

Exod 3:14

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

You know Jesus claimed that to be this Being don't you?

John 8:58

Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

If you don't think that He was claiming to be God the Jews did the next verse shows them preparing to stone Him for blasphemy.. The word Translated God is elohim.. This can mean a number of things and can only be properly translated as it relates to the context of a passage.. It can mean judges, it can mean rulers, it can mean idols, or it can mean YHWH (I AM).. I was using it to refer to YHWH..

There is One God.. Though your own prophet (Joseph Smith) taught that there were three Gods, you have modified his teachings to make the Father the only God of Mormonism.. Smith taught:

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it! (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473-479)

No matter how you try to explain it Smith has made the God of the LDS church so unbiblical it can't be defended.. The BofM could be read to agree with what you are saying when it teaches that there is One God.. It teaching that God is a Spirit is a bit harder to deal with.. But Smith changed the nature of God more than once through the years.. All this time and the Church has held that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Three separate and distinct Persons are the one true God.. That has been the teaching of the Church since Jesus proclaimed Himself to be YHWH.. IHS jim

Again, Paul taught the the Father exalted Christ. How does God make a God of Himself if He is already a God? Paul saw God the Father and Jesus Christ as two distinct beings... pretty tough to accuse Paul of being unbiblical.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

James,

I am excited at the dialogue that has taken place lately. I don't have time to get back to your posts, but I thought I would just express my appreciation for you trying to see what we believe this time around. It is a good thing when this happens.

[Calm]

Because you said they were the same God I have to show the differences between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity..

No, you don't. All you have to do is to show what God is and if you want, what you believe Biblical Christianity is, any differences will become obvious if you do a good job of teaching what you believe. You can even use what you believe the LDS faith teaches to emphasize those things that you believe are the most different from our beliefs, but even there no requirement is needed to directly compare....only the True Picture.

[Calm]

Since the temple was destroyed in AD 70 God has been using the Church in His dealing with the world.. Paul explain that He lived in the last days.. Until God wills we shall be in those days.. The teaching of the Apostles are the doctrine of the Church just as the Law was the doctrine of the children of Israel. The Bible is God's word it is immutable.

God commanded the temple to be built and rebuilt in the past. Why did he not command it when it was destroyed in AD 70?

Do you believe the males of His People should be circumcised? If not, why not?

Do you believe the teachings for His People in the Last Days are different than the teachings for His People at other times? If the same, then why do differences exist such as no animal sacrifice for us, no sacrament for them?

Why did he teach one wife now, but not so for Abraham? (I am assuming he did not teach it because if it was a commandment and Abraham broke it, he wouldn't be called such a faithful and righteous man in the scriptures).

[James Banta]

I skimmed through the thread, if I missed your answer to the question I'm about to give, please point me in the right direction as I haven't seen it yet.

"His People"---is this group always consistent or has God given commandments that have changed to membership requirements?

God gave the commandment for animal sacrifice and circumcision to His People and it was in effect for quite some time, I do not see how these could qualify as 'specific instructions to specific individuals'. Yet now the commandment is no longer in effect. How does this circumstance fit into your theory.

None of the commandments have been canceled. None have been taken away.. Jesus fulfilled the law of sacrifice by offering an eternal sacrifice.. Now I will reveal to you a great mystery.. Jesus' said that He is the I AM God.. He said that He is before Abraham was.. If Jesus exists and is present before the time of Abraham the He exists and is present in all other times.. This means that He is present as He is creating the Earth and He is present as He sits enthroned at the end of the age.. But there is one more place we must recognize that He is present and He always will be so.. This is what He did to redeem mankind for Himself.. It's a terrible thought but it fits into His timeless nature.. He is and always will be nailed to the cross with the sins of the world on is shoulders.. Horrible thought but if He is the timeless Being that John 8:58 says He is, we must acknowledge that He is there as well as being before Abraham.. That covers the Law of sacrifice..

The other Laws are still in force from the dirtary Laws to circumcision.. These are there to show us our sin and be a schoolmaster to bring us to Jesus.. The scripture is CLEAR 'all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God', 'The person that sins, that person must die', But happily 'God made Him who knew no sin that we might be the righteousness of God though Him'.. If you confess your sin He is faithful and just to forgive your sin and cleanes you from ALL unrighteousness.. This is how the broken Law is handled..

For the Christian Jesus is everything. He is our righteousness, He is our way to God. By Him and through Him we live and have our being.. Since He is everything to us He is all we need and we rest on His grace.. We have taken His yoke and it is light and easy as He promised it would be.. He now lives in us and does the work of the Kingdom. Christians are thrilled to allow our Lord to use us to accomplish His works... He requires Two things of us His children.. To believe in Him (trust him) and to LOVE.. By this we are known as His children that we have love for one another.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

You bring up several topics in your post James, so I'm going to address them individually in an effort to keep it short and simple.

You are right that LDS folks view salvation, exaltation, and eternal life individually, yet sometimes the terms are also used interchangeably. Specifically speaking, salvation refers to a bodily resurrection. When one is resurrected one is "saved" from physical death, or "the grave". Because of the atonement and the grace of Christ, this is a "free gift"to all who have ever lived or will live as a mortal on this earth. Satan and the third he took with him will never receive a resurrection because they did not "qualify" to receive a mortal body through the physical birth process. (I'll take up exaltation and eternal life in another post.)

While one is yet waiting for their resurrection, if they chose not accept the atonement made by Christ in their behalf, they must atone for their own unrepented sins. This is what is known as "hell". But this "hell" will not last forever and when the individual has "served his term", so to speak, he is then ready for his resurrection. He will then be assigned to some level of glory according to the judgment of God. When the last person is resurrected victory over death will have been accomplished because of the atonement of Christ and as the scripture says, Christ will have put death and hell under His feet and they will be no more.

But let's not confuse this "hell" with the "outter darkness" that is mentioned in the scriptures. "Outter Darkness" is the place prepared for Satan and his angles and for some of the non-repentant ones. They will all go to "outer darkness" where the Holy Spirit will not go, nor will the Light of Christ exist. The scriptures compares this with a "lake of fire" that will last throughout the eternities.

But the "good news" is that Christ has opened the door through His atonement for all who wish to partake. He has once again called mortal men to be living prophets among the people to teach, in our time, what must be done, just as Peter and Paul did to the people in their day. I urge you to open your mind to the possibility that in these last days that Christ has begun to prepare for His coming by calling prophets to prepare the way for Him, just as John the Baptist did 2000 years ago.

You quoted the scripture below. Our Father loves all His children and while respecting our free agency, glories in bringing immortality and eternal life to His children. Indeed we can become like Him and live in His "House" forever. What a great blessing.

Moses 1:39

For behold, this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man

Jimg

I see a lot of love in your post and I thank you for your concern.. I quoted the passage in Moses to make it clear that there is a difference between immortality and eternal live.. And that we can define eternal life as the highest glory (salvation) that there is.. Alive forever in the House of the Lord! Immortality is a different matter.. The doctrine that our bodies will be resurrected and exists either in the presence of God or in the Lake of Fire.. Jesus taught us that many will find their way to that destruction

Matthew 7:13

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat

It is a sad thing that many will be lost not just a few.. I will agree with you that the Lake of Fire is not hell.. Hell, as well as Satan, his minions, and the evil men of this world will find themselves in this terrible condition.. Now is it really a Lake of Fire? Who knows.. But that is the way the Bible describes it.. I think we can agree it is God's punishment and since the Apostle John use the term Lake of Fire to describe it, so will I.. Hell is called Sheol. Jesus has us see that it is a place of pain, torment, and flame (Luke 16:24)

For believers in Jesus The place of waiting is now with God and not in Sheol (Ephesians chapter four verse eight) . Paul told us that to be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord.. I await that day with great anticipation. Jesus has done far more than just opened the door to eternal life.. He has picked me up and carried me in.. I don't know if you saw the verse from 1 John I have quoted before.. It says we can know that we have eternal life.. NOW, not just when we die.. We can know for sure NOW.

1 John 5:13

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

This is completely consistent with the word Jesus spoke just before He raised Lazerth.. He who lives and believes in Me will never die.. These are wonderful promises and I lay my hope in them because God does NOT lie or is the a shadow of change in Him..

We do have many differences, we are FAR apart in our beliefs.. I hope we can maintain this leave of discussion.. It is a joy talking about my Lord with you.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

This is exactly LDS doctrine of how there is one God also. I haven't ever heard a trinitarian say the phrase "three separate and distinct persons" in describing trinity (granted, I need to get out more). I (as LDS) am always trying to explain to sectarian Christians I have conversations with exactly how it is we can have three persons yet one God, and this sentence is right on the money.

Yes! We can only keep the commandments with our faith in Jesus Christ and with his grace.

This is really cool, gave me new insight into this verse. So . . . basically having a mic at the church pulpit has solved this problem? He he, just teasin a bit.

Exactly.

Yes. Me too.

This would require a longer conversation although mercyngrace alluded to a finite hell. But, again, just saying these things like they are homiles or catechisms to us belies the depth of what can be known. But here is my brief answer to this (needs another thread): ALL people who are fearful, unbelieving, murderers, whoremongers, etc ARE in hell NOW. Hell, like, heaven is what we become and what condition we are in. It isn't a piece of real estate. And these people who have these kinds of struggles will remain in hell UNTIL they receive the atonement of Christ (by faith) which may be forever if they never believe. This is a huge thread derailment, I take responsibility, maybe we can do another thread on hell if you want to pursue this.

Exactly. The fact that you don't know me better is the only way you could even think that for a second. I didn't even use the word evil and I did that deliberately as I don't believe people are evil (mostly, there are a few) but I do believe a lot of people who have the capacity to be good are nevertheless trapped in doing crimes and bad things. Sorry if I didn't make it clear in my sentences. I study and love all religions and all people of all belief systems.

You know, this is fine. It is. I know you weren't even talking to me here, but, Jim, I and we love to hear from all kinds of spiritual and religious people about their thoughts, faith and testimony. I am not interested in telling you that you are wrong about YOUR religion. I hope you realize that this is not the angle we are taking in this discourse. We know you follow Christ. We know you follow the Bible. We know you love God. We know you love fellowmen. We know you are saved. We know God knows you and loves you, answers your prayers. We know the Holy Spirit talks to you. Et cetera.

What we are talking about is how you misunderstand US. We are trying to clarify. People oversimplify and put crazy angles on LDS beliefs -- like a hall of funny mirrors in a carnival and how they compare to, say, a bathroom mirror. Posters come here project their own way of looking at the world and the scriptures and God, and think that LDS have the same way of looking out (i.e. condemning others of other beliefs; we don't). Disagreeing is one thing. We can do that. We can leave it at a state of disagreement. LDS beliefs being charicaterized beyond recognition isn't okay. We keep trying to throw words at peeps who come by in order to mitigate the latter.

Now, Jim, you've actually been very nice and intelligent and fair and so forth, so I appreciate continuing to converse with you and learn what you know about God. But I just want you to know that I am not interested in telling you that you are wrong, that has never been the motivation behind my responses. My responses are so you can see ME and the LDS more clearly, even if you find you must still disagree.

Later . . .

I just lost a major post back to you concerning these things.. Understand that I see that LDS doctrine is very changeable.. No one can know how the requirements for exaltation will change in the years ahead.. I have shown you that Smith believed in many Gods.. He said that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Gods not one God.. He also claimed that the Father created or procreated the spirits of both Jesus and the Holy Spirit.. That they became Gods after their creation though their valiant works in a pre-existent realm..

I also said that I am not here to convince you of anything.. I am following the great commission left to me by Jesus.. He leads me to bring His word and His message of Life to people I really care about and that in the LDS people.. I am not one of those that would march outside the convention center during conference.. I believe that do more to damage the Name of my Lord than to lift Him up.. I instead will lift Him up so that He can draw all men to Himself.. I will let Him add to the Church for that is who the scripture says does that work.. I pray that we can remain friends and talk about God.. My heart flies on the wing of eagles as I do so... IHS and IHN jim

[James Banta]

Jimg, great words.

I did want to mention to the other Jim, that, see I don't even agree with jimg's definition of "salvation". I do agree with the concept that we will be resurrected bodily. But I call "salvation" when Jesus rescues us from the power of the devil which happens in the NOW. Jimg might agree with me on that concept, but he might not apply the term salvation to it.

The point being is that one cannot argue TERMS, we have to argue CONCEPTS, because terms are not quite as important in LDS and can be used in different places.

Maybe salvation could cover all the marvelous things Jesus can do for us through his power, atonement and grace?

I have seen the term used many ways by LDS leaders over the pulpit in conference.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I skimmed through the thread, if I missed your answer to the question I'm about to give, please point me in the right direction as I haven't seen it yet.

"His People"---is this group always consistent or has God given commandments that have changed to membership requirements?

God gave the commandment for animal sacrifice and circumcision to His People and it was in effect for quite some time, I do not see how these could qualify as 'specific instructions to specific individuals'. Yet now the commandment is no longer in effect. How does this circumstance fit into your theory.

Always consistent.. I did answer this question maybe you could look a bit closer and find my full response.. I have a lot of questions to handle here and limited time.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I understand where you are coming from, James. I was raised in the Baptist church and instant salvation and OSAS was taught there. This allows me to put myself in the other fellows shoes in these areas. A quick word about "salvation"..................LDS do not consider themselves "saved" until they "arrive" at their destination. We must "endure to the end" as the scripture states.

As long as we have our free agency to do as we please, there is always the option of "jumping ship" before we arrive at the destination port. The Lord is not going to keep us on the ship against our will. To avoid confusion, let me say that I am not talking about the "salvation" one gains by being resurrected. It's hard to explain LDS teachings in thimble size batches, especially on the internet.

But I have a question....you seem pretty well read concerning things LDS. (Although you don't seem to understand what they mean). Were you once a member of the LDS Church? Also, it's a puzzle to me why you spend so much time researching things LDS and spending so much time on this forum? Do you consider yourself as one who is going to "teach the Mormons" where they are wrong and point out to them the perceived fallacies in their religion?

Just wondering what your motivation is.

Jim in Texas

I do not fine the doctrine of 'enduring to the end' in the Bible.. Maybe you could show me where to find it.. I have shown you that John said we can Know we have eternal life, NOW.. I will not be one that says Jesus will cast out any that come to Him, or that any man including ourself can pluck us from His hand once we have become His.. I will say that I don't know the hearts of any one and therefore can't know if they have a head knowledge or real true saving faith.. I just have to believe what others say.

Yes I was raised LDS.. It is because of that that I have such a burden for the LDS people.. Paul was an Israelite, he said that his hearts desire for Israel is that they might be saved.. I see this is how God works.. I was in the church and now I have found the Jesus of the Bible.. And My hearts desire for the LDS people is that they might be saved.. Does that help? To do this I do use problems in LDS history and doctrine.. BUT my main responsibility is to raise Jesus up so that He can draw all men to Himself.. If I have to tear down a few false idols to do that I will.. That may make me sound like an 'Anti' at times but I am no more anti Mormon than Paul was anti Israel.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

CFR please

1 Cor 14:34 IHS jim

[James Banta]

I'm very pleased to see that you hold to the true doctrine of deity, like the Latter-day Saints.

Truly, you may not be far from the Kingdom of God.

According to the promises of God in the scripture I am there..

John 1:12-13

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

IHS jim

[Deborah]

Yes I was raised LDS.. It is because of that that I have such a burden for the LDS people..

How sad then that you never understood LDS belief. When you say "LDS doctrine is very changeable" you have not grasped the difference between doctrine and practice. The doctrine is the New and Everlasting Covenant, of which marriage is included. The practice is either plural marriage or monogamy. For a time plural marriage was practiced; now it is not. The doctrine of the New and Everlasting Covenant as it relates to marriage is the same.

[Deborah]

I do not fine the doctrine of 'enduring to the end' in the Bible..

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name