Exaltaion requirements

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Didn't you see that I am a Conservative Baptist?

I did not know you were one. I did not even know what a Conservative Baptist was. Thank you for sharing this with me. In some ways you and I are not so different.

[James Banta]

My responces in red

['mercyngrace' date=02 November 2009 - 06:12 PM' timestamp='1257210733' post='1208746059]

So you can interpret Moses speaking to God "face to face" as metaphorical, ignoring the literal meaning of one verse in favor of a meaning derived through studying the scriptures in their entirety. When I say that the same can be done with other Biblical statements, you say that I am twisting the words in an attempt to fit my beliefs. Okay.

So you're saying...

He has a voice (John 5:37) but no vocal cords?

He has a shape (John 5:37) but no body?

He has a mouth (Num. 12:8 ) but doesn't eat?

He has feet (Ex. 24:10) but no flesh and bone?

He has a finger (Duet. 9:10) but no hand?

He has a face (Rev, 22:4), eyes that see (Ps. 33:18), ears to hear (1 Pet. 3:12), and a nose to smell (Job 4:9) but is incorporeal and intangible?

Yes He can do all those wonders.. He can also turn a river blood red cause hail to fall from the sky and have it burn as it hits the ground.. He can command the elements calming stormy seas and changing plain water into wine.. I have seen all these references before I don't believe you have examined the context of each one.. In the same Exodus 11 it does say Moses talked to God face to face It says Moses never saw God face just His back. WE must have the truth of the matter and if we go to an authoritative source we can know what in a metaphor and what is literal. After all a mountain has a face, grain has ears, potatoes have eyes, and no one actually puts their nose on a grind stone.. Metaphors all.. We have the best most authoritative statement as to the nature of God in Jesus.. The statements about the nature of God are insurmountable.. God is a Spirit..

John 4:24

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

And according to your last response - no one has seen God but Moses (being as you said the face to face verses were a metaphor for God's special relationship with this singular mortal) in spite of what it says in Exodus 24:11 (children of Israel saw God) and what it says in John 6:46 specifically about man's ability to see The Father and what the Lord said "neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."

If you read the whole Context of Exodus 24 you will see that these men Moses took up on the Holy Mountain didn't approach God.. Only Moses did that.. It says the Elder ate and drank but it doesn't say God did.. You are reading into the passage what you want it to say not what it says.. In John 6:46 Who is is that that is of God? Can we get the answer for that again from the bible it's self?

John 1:18

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Jesus is the Only begotten Son, Jesus must then be the one who is of God.. Only Jesus has seen the Father.. If I take passages out of context like this would you lase slap me up alongside the head.. I don't wish to manipulate scripture I just want to believe it..

I am not telling you how you must see these passages I am saying there is a way to make the whole of the Bible true without planting our minds around the idea that it is inconsistent and contradicts it's self.. A Christian (And I take it you believe you are a Christian) looks for ways to make it true not ways to tear it down.. I have just explained to you a way for it to be completely true.. If you would rather say that Jesus lied about keeping it pure for us that is your right but I intend to believe in Him, That means I trust the message He has given to us.. Heaven nor earth have passed away and the word we have from God (Jesus) has not either..

I know your doctrine about who the God of the burning bush was, The God that spoke to moses here in the Pentateuch. The LDS church believe that God to be Jesus.. They teach in everyone of these passages that it was Jesus and not the Father.. I don't agree with that I believe God was there but that doesn't matter for this point.. The point is that these passages, the whole of the Bible is the word of Jesus.. From the Garden to the restoration at the end of the Age. Jesus is the God in control.. I have seen your secret ceremonies.. I have seen where the Father send Jesus to do the work of building the world.. You hold Jesus to be the Person that has worked with man all alone for the whole of the Bible is the word of Jesus (God).. His promise covers the whole Bible not just parts of the New Testament here and there.. Either we can trust the Bible or we have No hope because Jesus is a strong enough God to keep His promises..

IHS jim

[James Banta]

Yet for some reason you dwell on these supposed evil acts of BY and others. If "bad" acts didn't prevent a man from being a prophet in the past, why do you think they disqualify "bad" men today form being prophets?

With regards to David, it is specifically reported that God gave David wives through Nathan. The part taht was bad was that David lusted after that which was forbiddin. Polygamy wasn't this issue here, it was going after another woman that wasn't given to him by God. David was given wives by Nathan the prophet. You know the best part too, some of these women even had other husbands.

Prophecy in the Church is not a leadership position. It is a spiritual gift like decernment, tounges, an giving. These gifts are given to build up the body of Christ the same way ther speaking in tongues builds up the body. One believer at a time.. The days that God spoke to the people through prophets has past.

Hebresw 1:1-2

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

Here on this side of the cross we are favored to be able to look back into the OT and see the fulfillment of God word there in the Person Of Jesus.. His sacrifice for us on the cross gives us full fellowship with God that believers in any time have never had before.. We are no longer just His people we are Now His children.

If David did as God instructed as to the the women he took as wives why would God nhave told you that He sisned in doing so:

JACOB 2:24

Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

I believe that the LDS church still finds abominations before God to be sins? IHS jim

I didn't know Nathen was in on David taking captives from the houses of his enemies.. That is new to me... CFR

[James Banta]

Shouldn't only one chair be needed because they are one being? That is the point. I won't hold that doctrine to you if you don't believe it. It isn't what I believe, thought I have been told that in order to be a true christian you need to believe in teh "Trinitarian Jesus".

Yes God is One Being.. I don't mind being held to that doctrine. I believe it is supported in the scripture.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I did not know you were one. I did not even know what a Conservative Baptist was. Thank you for sharing this with me. In some ways you and I are not so different.

The CB movement stated in the late 1940's when the American Baptist assoc. started sending missionaries into the field that even denied the miracles and questioned the inerrancy of the scripture.. A group of men withdrew their support from that group and set up the Consecrative Baptist Foreign Mission Society.. Conservative as to conserve the faith, not be right wing.. Thought you might like to know that there are different kinds of Baptist out there. Some are Christian some are not.. This continues across all denominations.. Some are Christian and some aren't.. Each must be judged by their message.. Who is Jesus to each, what did He do, does He keep His promises? A Conservative holds God to be real His promises real, His mighty works (all of them) real..

I had some friends(Christians) who were looking from a new church home.. They went one Sunday to a United Methodist church here in Sandy, Utah. The pastor gave a wonderful sermon on the marriage feast at Cana and at the end said " Now we don't actually believe thee things happened but here is my point..." The point was lost as soon as he denied the miracle.. This is how a lot of different denominations have started.. Because God has his children in the whole world and they will not accept error of this magnitude.. There have ALWAYS been some that would not compromise and bow to the will of error.. This are the Church of Jesus Christ that He promises would stand forever, even against the forces and the gates of hell... IHS jim

[mercyngrace]

My responces in red

James,

You've entirely missed the point.

You can't claim the Bible is literal and inerrant when it comes to some verses and then claim that others are metaphorical per your own interpretation.

And you certainly can't do that and then intone that others who see contexts and metaphors are altering the text.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Yes God is One Being.. I don't mind being held to that doctrine. I believe it is supported in the scripture.. IHS jim

I am entirely interested in any scripture verse that unequivocally tells us taht God and Jesus are one being. I am not interested in any verse that says that Jesus and God are one as that is open to interpretation and there is very good reason that they way they are one is in purpose not substance.

I am interested in what your justification is. And I will not accept scriptures in Isaiah as evidence of God and Jesus being one being as nothing in Isaiah says that.

[SlackTime]

I don't spend a lot of time here because I was told by a member of your church I had no right to be here. But this question has come up on another Posting board and I would like to get input from believing members of the church.. Please if you are not LDS don't respond.. IHS jim

If what you really mean is; "Does a person have to be ready to be obedient to every command from God, however distateful it may be to them, once they know that it is a command from God." Then I would definitely agree. If God commands polygamy, then you must be ready to accept and obey the principle. If God commands monogamy, then it is the exact same. You have to be prepared to accept and obey the principle that God knows in full and we know only in part. We must be obedient to God.

But because you didn't word the question that way. Then the answer has to be ... no.

- Ed

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Prophecy in the Church is not a leadership position. It is a spiritual gift like decernment, tounges, an giving. These gifts are given to build up the body of Christ the same way ther speaking in tongues builds up the body. One believer at a time.. The days that God spoke to the people through prophets has past.

Hebresw 1:1-2

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

Here on this side of the cross we are favored to be able to look back into the OT and see the fulfillment of God word there in the Person Of Jesus.. His sacrifice for us on the cross gives us full fellowship with God that believers in any time have never had before.. We are no longer just His people we are Now His children.

The way you interpret this verse of scripture runs contrary to what is talked about in Acts taht there were other prophets. In Eph. we learn that God built up his church on a foundation of Prophets and Apostles with Christ being the cheif corner stone. I can't find any verse of scripture that says taht there shouldn't be prophets and apostles or that they are not needed.

If David did as God instructed as to the the women he took as wives why would God nhave told you that He sisned in doing so:

JACOB 2:24

Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

I believe that the LDS church still finds abominations before God to be sins? IHS jim

James you would do well to read verse 30 in that same chapter.

It is a sin to practice polygamy unless God commands his people to do otherwise.

I didn't know Nathen was in on David taking captives from the houses of his enemies.. That is new to me... CFR

Here you go 2Sam 12 :7-11

7

[Jason]

When Paul gave advice about marriage to the Church he made it clear that it was advice and not a commandment.. It was still excellent advice.. Lets look at the text:

1 Cor 7:6-9

But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

God allowed Paul these words to the WHOLE Church but not as a commandment.. He would that all people were single but He saw that this is not God's plan for man that built into us is a desire to be loved and to give love to one specific person.. This passage shows that any relations outside a person marriage is wrong.. You might say that is a weak example for monogamy but I thing a case can still be made for it from this passage..

Because God allowed Paul this message I see that as authoritative advice.. IHS jim

Hmmm.

Are you arguing that everything Paul said was a commandment except the stuff he specifically said was advice?

[SlackTime]

Since it seems the original question was so hard to understand for some. . . If a person rejects the concept of polygamy will they be able to enter into celestial glory. . . or is accepting the concept a requirement?

Not hard at all, what is hard is for you to understand the answer. What part of obedience to God are you unable to comprehend? If God commands you to live the law of polygamy, will you do it? If not, you put a limit on your obedience and are unacceptable to God. If God commands you not to live polygamy, but to have but one wife, will you be obedient? If not, you are unacceptable to God. Your problem is that you have difficulty understanding that God commands according to His knowledge and can give one command to Pres. Smith and Pres. Young and a totally different command to Pres. Monsen. That is the purpose and reason for LIVING PROPHETS. To tell us what God wants us to do TODAY.

[James Banta]

James,

You've entirely missed the point.

You can't claim the Bible is literal and inerrant when it comes to some verses and then claim that others are metaphorical per your own interpretation.

And you certainly can't do that and then intone that others who see contexts and metaphors are altering the text.

I never claimed that everything in the Bible is literal.. God isn't a fire.. Though in Heb 12:29 it says that He is. He is a giant bird but again the Bible again say that He is in Psalm 36:7. The Bible isn't false because of these passages either they are metaphorical.. If we see two statements that look to be contradictory in the same passage both are still true one in a metaphor.. If you see metaphors in what I think is literal show it to me and we can talk about it.. I don't claim to be perfect I anything I say.. I do listen to the Holy Spirit as He teaches me the meaning of His word.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I am entirely interested in any scripture verse that unequivocally tells us taht God and Jesus are one being. I am not interested in any verse that says that Jesus and God are one as that is open to interpretation and there is very good reason that they way they are one is in purpose not substance.

I am interested in what your justification is. And I will not accept scriptures in Isaiah as evidence of God and Jesus being one being as nothing in Isaiah says that.

Isaiah says that God is the Only God that has ever existed or will ever exist.. You must know them.. Good..

And you know that Jesus confirmed the creed of Israel that God is one Lord..

Mark 12:29, Duet 6:4

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord

Lord is a translation for the Hebrew word we get Jehovah from it is YHWH.. God is Elohim.. We cold say this verse says that Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah.. Both the names that Joseph Smith said are the Persons of God the Father, and God the Son.. That shows from the Bible that The Father and the Son are God and there in ONE GOD!.. IHS jim

[Redefined]

Not hard at all, what is hard is for you to understand the answer. What part of obedience to God are you unable to comprehend? If God commands you to live the law of polygamy, will you do it? If not, you put a limit on your obedience and are unacceptable to God. If God commands you not to live polygamy, but to have but one wife, will you be obedient? If not, you are unacceptable to God. Your problem is that you have difficulty understanding that God commands according to His knowledge and can give one command to Pres. Smith and Pres. Young and a totally different command to Pres. Monsen. That is the purpose and reason for LIVING PROPHETS. To tell us what God wants us to do TODAY.

My purpose was to clarify the question. I didn't pose the original question. When you say "your problem is that you have difficulty understanding that God commands according to His knowledge. . . ", you are throwing out a presumption to my understanding. You are wrong. I will tell you, I don't have a "problem" or "difficulty" understanding this concept of doing whatever the lord commands. I understand the concept perfectly. As it happens I don't believe in the conventional concept of "God". All my comment was doing was trying to help the forum members out by discussing it a bit because no one seemed willing to just say "yes" or "no" to what appeared to be a simple "yes" or "no" question.

As you may notice, in the comments that follow, it led me to give the conclusion that generally the answer is "no" to the question. . . polygamy isn't a requirement of the Celestial Kingdom. . . or as James Banta suggests, Exaltation. It doesn't matter what I think about the Celestial Kingdom because I don't believe in it myself.

[James Banta]

If what you really mean is; "Does a person have to be ready to be obedient to every command from God, however distateful it may be to them, once they know that it is a command from God." Then I would definitely agree. If God commands polygamy, then you must be ready to accept and obey the principle. If God commands monogamy, then it is the exact same. You have to be prepared to accept and obey the principle that God knows in full and we know only in part. We must be obedient to God.

But because you didn't word the question that way. Then the answer has to be ... no.

- Ed

And if you voted as you saw it that is what I asked for.. I am not here to tell you how to vote in my poll.. If you want to discuss your thoughts I am open to that too... IHS jim

[Doctor Steuss]

God isn't a fire..

Why are you limiting G-d?

(Doing my part to derail)

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The CB movement stated in the late 1940's when the American Baptist assoc. started sending missionaries into the field that even denied the miracles and questioned the inerrancy of the scripture.. A group of men withdrew their support from that group and set up the Consecrative Baptist Foreign Mission Society.. Conservative as to conserve the faith, not be right wing.. Thought you might like to know that there are different kinds of Baptist out there. Some are Christian some are not.. This continues across all denominations.. Some are Christian and some aren't.. Each must be judged by their message.. Who is Jesus to each, what did He do, does He keep His promises? A Conservative holds God to be real His promises real, His mighty works (all of them) real..

I had some friends(Christians) who were looking from a new church home.. They went one Sunday to a United Methodist church here in Sandy, Utah. The pastor gave a wonderful sermon on the marriage feast at Cana and at the end said " Now we don't actually believe thee things happened but here is my point..." The point was lost as soon as he denied the miracle.. This is how a lot of different denominations have started.. Because God has his children in the whole world and they will not accept error of this magnitude.. There have ALWAYS been some that would not compromise and bow to the will of error.. This are the Church of Jesus Christ that He promises would stand forever, even against the forces and the gates of hell... IHS jim

Thanks for the responce. I find it interesting that you think some are Christian and some are not. So if people don't think that everying thing in the bible isn't literal, are they non Christian? What definition are you using for Christain. I am just trying to see were you are comming from.

My belief of what a Christian is is simple. IT is any body that professes a belief that Christ is the Son of God and that he is the author if their salvation.

[Jason]

I never claimed that everything in the Bible is literal.. God isn't a fire.. Though in Heb 12:29 it says that He is. He is a giant bird but again the Bible again say that He is in Psalm 36:7. The Bible isn't false because of these passages either they are metaphorical.. If we see two statements that look to be contradictory in the same passage both are still true one in a metaphor.. If you see metaphors in what I think is literal show it to me and we can talk about it.. I don't claim to be perfect I anything I say.. I do listen to the Holy Spirit as He teaches me the meaning of His word.. IHS jim

Whoah, wait a minute - how do you know the fire and bird passages are metaphorical but the spirit one isn't?

I mean, it even says we are to worship God in spirit and in truth in the same verse (John 4:24), and that's probably metaphorical, right?

You don't kill yourself so that you are just a spirit before you worship do you?

[mercyngrace]

Whoah, wait a minute - how do you know the fire and bird passages are metaphorical but the spirit one isn't?

I mean, it even says we are to worship God in spirit and in truth in the same verse (John 4:24), and that's probably metaphorical, right?

You don't kill yourself so that you are just a spirit before you worship do you?

Amen and Amen.

edited to add: How do we know that God isn't simply using the language we understand to teach principles and eternal truths in the same way we use the words our children understand to teach them?

Did not Ammon say that God was 'the Great Spirit'? He taught King Lamoni using the language and understanding of Lamoni, giving milk to a man unprepared for meat.

It would have been perfectly reasonable for Christ to distinguish Himself from a disembodied spirit before the fearful disciples. Mary Magdelene had seen Him but been unable to touch Him, some disciples saw Him and still doubted, Mary M., Joanna, and Mary the mother of James confessed seeing the risen Lord and their testimonies were dismissed as idle tales, Thomas rejected the testimony of his comrades. Just a few days before, Peter had denied Christ and now the 12 were fearfully assembling in secret lest they be discovered. The Lord was calming His frightened followers when He distinguished Himself from the dead.

It's also important to note than when Christ said "God is a spirit", He was speaking to a woman of Samaria who was confounded by the mere fact that Jesus, a Jew, would even speak to her. This discussion was about the fact that the messiah was coming to all men not merely Jews or those of any approved lineage.

She says (paraphrasing) 'Our fathers worship in this mountain but you [Jews] say we can only be saved in Jerusalem' to which Christ responds 'The hour is coming when ALL true worshippers will worship in spirit and truth' after which He makes the pronouncement 'God is a spirit'. He was laying down the foundation for the gospel reaching beyond Israel to all mankind. The significance of lineage was about to be seriously diminished.

Talk about your metaphors ;-)

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Isaiah says that God is the Only God that has ever existed or will ever exist.. You must know them.. Good..

And you know that Jesus confirmed the creed of Israel that God is one Lord..

Mark 12:29, Duet 6:4

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord

Lord is a translation for the Hebrew word we get Jehovah from it is YHWH.. God is Elohim.. We cold say this verse says that Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah.. Both the names that Joseph Smith said are the Persons of God the Father, and God the Son.. That shows from the Bible that The Father and the Son are God and there in ONE GOD!.. IHS jim

Not so fast. Elohim has a few meanings. This still does not mean that they are one being. One God doesn't mean on physical being per John 17. I need a verse that says something like this "And God the Father and Jesus Christ are one being". That way we can know with certainty and no guess work or interpretaions are required. I simply don't see this verse as good evidence that there they are one being. Any time One God is mentioned we believe it to mean one in purpose just as Husband and Wife are one. Do Husband and Wife cease bieng 2 different people?

[James Banta]

The way you interpret this verse of scripture runs contrary to what is talked about in Acts taht there were other prophets. In Eph. we learn that God built up his church on a foundation of Prophets and Apostles with Christ being the cheif corner stone. I can't find any verse of scripture that says taht there shouldn't be prophets and apostles or that they are not needed.

James you would do well to read verse 30 in that same chapter.

It is a sin to practice polygamy unless God commands his people to do otherwise.

Here you go 2Sam 12 :7-11

7

[James Banta]

Whoah, wait a minute - how do you know the fire and bird passages are metaphorical but the spirit one isn't?

I mean, it even says we are to worship God in spirit and in truth in the same verse (John 4:24), and that's probably metaphorical, right?

You don't kill yourself so that you are just a spirit before you worship do you?

How do I know? The same way you say you know that the church is the only true church.. God tells me by the Holy Spirit.. He teaches me right there out of His word.. I'll even ask you has God taught you that He is a FIRE? Don't you ask God to teach you the messages He has for you in His word before you begin to study? I am not telling you that God doesn't teach you His truths (though I don't believe you listen) and I allow you to believe that I am wrong just as much as I believe you are. How do I know it's Him because what He shows me is in full agreement with other passages in the scripture.. If it is the way you have been telling me then part of the Bible are just plain wrong.. Moses saw God in verser 11 of Exodus 33. But God wouldn't show Moses his face because no one can see His face and live in verse 20.. If God doesn't lie then His word all of His word is true not just the parts you like..

Psalm 119:160

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

So what is it going to be is the Bible the word of God and therefore truth or is it a lie the myths of mere men? You can't have it both ways... IHS jim

[James Banta]

Not so fast. Elohim has a few meanings. This still does not mean that they are one being. One God doesn't mean on physical being per John 17. I need a verse that says something like this "And God the Father and Jesus Christ are one being". That way we can know with certainty and no guess work or interpretaions are required. I simply don't see this verse as good evidence that there they are one being. Any time One God is mentioned we believe it to mean one in purpose just as Husband and Wife are one. Do Husband and Wife cease bieng 2 different people?

You missed what I said.. God is three separate and distinct Persons.. I have never said anything else.. These person are of the same essene the same nature they are the same Being.. You have seen it before Jesus said I and the Father are One (John 10:30).. Please drop the misleading idea that I or the Bible teaches that God is one Person.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Why are you limiting G-d?

(Doing my part to derail)

I see that... Why are you wanting to make God into something that He is not? IHS jim

[Jason]

How do I know? The same way you say you know that the church is the only true church.. God tells me by the Holy Spirit..

Hmmm. But don't you think that God doesn't actually tell me that?

How do I know it's Him because what He shows me is in full agreement with other passages in the scripture..

So it's not JUST what God tells you, it's what is in agreement with scripture.

Circular, in other words. You know which parts of the scripture mean what because God tells you so, and you know it's God because the scripture tells you so.