Exaltaion requirements

[James Banta]

You do realize that Pres. Woodruff was 90 years old in 1897?

from Meridian Magazine:

Mdme Mountford

Does it matter how old he was.. That is what he wrote in his journal.. I didn't just make it up... IHS jim

[James Banta]

But you don't understand it has nothing to do with polygamy. It has to do with obedience to God's commandments and following his living prophets. Why on earth would someone believe he has to be a a polygamist at heart if in fact it is against the commandment at the time he is living to be a polygamist?

I understand that God does not give conflicting commandments.. He doesn't tell the Church that all Her leaders must have one wife and then come by in a few years and change that commandment.. He didn't command Noah to build the Ark and then after it was done not bring the flood.. He didn't promise Abraham that he would be a great nation and allow the knife to cut into Issac.. Abraham did as God commanded He offered Issac as a burnt offering. God didn't stop that He just prevented Issac's death.. The offering was still made..

Richard made it clear to me that he believed that BY was a true prophet and when he said that a man must be a polygamist (at least of the heart) I believe he meant it.. Richard is nothing if not an honest man.. He would say that about me but that's another story.. I see nothing from God that outlaws pural marriage.. Oh yes that is what the church teaches but have you looked at the way the 132 section of the D&C begins and compared it to the Manifesto?

D&C 132:1

Verily, thus saith the Lord ...

and then the Manifesto

OFFICIAL DECLARATION

[James Banta]

That is the million dollar question.

He did?

Yet you cannot be saved if you willfully turn from christ. You must have faith and works (synergism) to access grace. Remeber that faith alone is dead. I trust in Jesus so taht is why I do what he asks me to do. Jesus taught that only those who do the will of the Father will be in the kingdom of Hevean not those that just say "Lord, Lord".

It must be a hard pill to swallow knowing that you are teaching an unbiblical way to salvation.

[i am ribbing you here]

Of course because I don't believe in Joseph Smith I have turned to an 'unbiblical way to salvation'.. I don't see Smith as having anything to do with the Way to the Father.. I will GO by what the Bible says and not by the way of glorifying of a man (Joseph Smith)

John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

JofD Vol,7 p289

no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are ... I cannot go there without his consent.... He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven.

I am not ribbing you this is out and out blasphemy..

Is not doing the works of God walking in his will? What did Jesus tell us God's works are?

John 6:29

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Yes all the Extra requirements, the laws and ordinances of the LDS gospel are a hard pill to swallow.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I notice you're dodging my questions.

I am really trying not to but there are a lot of you here to answer.. Please restate the question.. I will try again.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

James,

Here is the question

I answered that one... God can give a man a specific command as he did to Jonah.. WE all don't have to go to Nineveh.. But His Commandments to us as His people are always consistent.. His commands to an individual will not ask us to break the commandments he has already given but will make a way to accomplish what the Lord commands (1 Nephi 3:7) All that He commands.. You can't obey all He commands if He command His original commands to be broken.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Ah, but my question was about whether you could back up what you were claiming, not about what I know.

Great.

So how can we tell if this was an eternal Law sort of thing or something that was given specifically for the early Christian Church and not neccessarily required of us, and how exactly should we apply these requirements?

Would someone be disqualified as a bishop if his wife died, for instance? What if he died and re-married? He would then have TWO wives, wouldn't he? And the requirement says nothing about living or dead.

I notice in the next few verses it says he also has to "[rule] well in his own house" and "[have] his children in subjection with all gravity;" So does a bishop need to own a house? Does he have to have children?

What if his children grow up and leave his house - is he still qualified to be a bishop?

It also says "he must have a good report of them which are without" - "without" meaning "those outside the faith". So the non-members get to decide when someone can't be a bishop anymore, by giving him a bad report?

"Blameless" is also a tricky one, isn't it? Is anyone truly "blameless"?

Really, the passage raises more questions than it solves, don't you think? Maybe we could use a little more guidance.

I notice also that there seems to be a little contradiction later on - in verse 11 the deacon's "wives" must be "grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things", but in verse 12 Paul says they should have one wife. Which is it? Wives or wife?

Ooh, and of course the chapter before contains that unpleasant bit about "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." Is that another one of those eternal law commandments? Are women in your faith allowed to teach, or speak in Church?

While God commanded that David care for the wives of Saul He never commanded anyone EVER to practice polygamy. When God said that the leaders of the Church were barred from that practice it became the Law of the Church.. No man who has anything but ONE WIFE may lead the Church of God..

Is anyone blameless? In our flesh no.. Because of Jesus taking our sin and giving us His righteousness I would have to say yes. A man who is a child of God is blameless..

While the passage makes being a man married to one wife a requirement the passage does not say that a man must own a house.. Even a renter will say that his apartment is his house.. A man's house are the members of His household.. Come on you are smarter than to make that even a question.. It doesn't say that he must have children but that his children be under his control..

Christian doctrine separates a man and a woman at death.. A widower in not a married man.. If he were to marry again he would be the husband of one wife.. Mormonism used to teach this as part of LDS doctrine It's was in the 1835 C&D section 101:4

D&C 101:4 1835

Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.

A Deacon has a wife.. Deacons have wives.. It all depends on if you are talking about them individually or as a group.. Today the wives of the Elders Quorum are fine women.. Or Elder Jones has a fine wife.. You can understand that...

Should the women be silence in the churches? YES.. As everyone else should be so that all may hear.. That was a problem in the ancient world.. The churches were configured to put women in the back of the hall. The women would sometimes cause a disturbance because they could hear what was going on.. This caused Paul to tell them to let their husband teach them at home.. Paul didn't tell us we had to separate the sexes and women at least in most Christian churches don't cause a disturbance.. Should they teach men.. The Bible says no and I believe the Bible.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Seems like it would be easier to just ask what the LDS church believes is required for exaltation.

I needed to answer a question about what the modern LDS church thinks of BY's teaching that a man must be a polygamist (at least in heart) to enter exaltation.. This was bit more specialized than the general things I would have received to such a question.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I take it that you see my point? I hope so. What I must ask next is, why can't you extened the same curtousy to the modernday prophets? I am not talking about weather or not you actually think they are modernday prophets, I am talking about their charactors.

Tell you whatI will say I don't believe what they teach like you say you don't believe what I teach.. I won't call hem name or say they lie.. How is that? IHS jim

[James Banta]

Suck to have been a Jew then living around the time of Christ. Sucks to have been a person living at the time of Moses too. I agree that works are a "manifestation of faith" However James tells us taht with out works our faith is dead. You must have works to make faith alive. I am not talkin about living a perfect life. what I am talking about is giving all that you can to live the best life you can. If you do that and have faith then you will be saved. If you have faith but do not live that kind of a life how can one claim salvation? Works don't save us any more than faith saves us, but they are required to gain grace.

I agree that saving faith is accompanied by works but as the thief on the cross had faith, works at that time in his life would have been hard to accomplish.. I believe as James taught that the works we do manifest our faith to each other not to God.. God can see our heart... HE knows if our faith is real of a mask, a person pretending to be a Christian.. Look at what James says:

James 2:18

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

See we show our faith to each other by our works.. But the the Bible is clear that faith is the means to access God's grace.. But you are correct we are saved by God's grace.. But that grace come through faith.. What I am saying is die to yourself and allow God to live through you.. We are told in the scripture that God is the One responsible for our Good works.. It isn't I but God who works through his children.

Phil 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

I claim salvation here and now.. It isn't something I hope to someday achieve it's mine now (1 John 5:13) All those who believe in Jesus have eternal life now.. God is Good and these are His promises.. I rest in them.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

The N&EC is marriage. It is not polygamous marriage though Polygamous marriage can be contained with the N&EC. Polygmous marriage would be the Law of Sara. Polygamous marrige is talked about in D&C 132 though. I suggest reading it again or post the verses that you think make polygamy a requirement.

Still see it the same way. Smith calls the New and everlasting covenant of marriage in section 132 of the D&C.. It is still clear to me.. Understand just because we disagree doesn't mean I don't respect your POV. I just don't agree with it..IHS jim

[James Banta]

James,

Unfortunately, that verse doesn't mean what you think it does. It refers to men who had been married more than once, after having been divorced. It has nothing to do with plural marriage. I can give you references if you don't believe me.

By the way, I do not feel, at all, threatened by you, and I think having you on this board is a good thing.

Best,

T-Shirt

Divorced men are not considered to be the husbands of one wife.. Divorce is not what God has in mind for marriage and Jesus said so.. But for the hardness of our hearts he permits it.. Polygamy was common at the time Paul gave us this word from God.. Just like divorced men men who had more than one wife are banned from leadership in the church.. You say different roll out your references and we will discuss them.. IHS jim

BTW: Thank you for your welcoming words..

[James Banta]

I think that Paul is giving young Timothy sound advice here, but I see no "church doctrine" in it. I think that all would agree that a Bishop should be a mature individual, even married and with a loving family. One who is "vigilant, sober, of good behavior, and given to hospitality". These are all attributes that a leader in the Church should posses, but I don't see Paul's statement to Timothy as anything more than very good advice. It seems that too often we have the idea that if something is written in the bible that it is "hard doctrine".

Unfortunately, this thinking often leads to establishing in the mind of some that the bible is an entity unto itself, and one that is worshiped as if it were an idol.

Ok we will agree to disagree... I believe that the Bible is God's word 100%.. He has something for us to learn in ever verse... IHS jim

[Redefined]

Still see it the same way. Smith calls the New and everlasting covenant of marriage in section 132 of the D&C.. It is still clear to me.. Understand just because we disagree doesn't mean I don't respect your POV. I just don't agree with it..IHS jim

I don't think that D&C 132 says that Polygamy is the New and Everlasting Covenant. What it does say is that Celestial Marriage is the New and Everlasting Covenant. . . and this was important for Joseph Smith to clarify before explaining the law of polygamy later in chapter. This paved the way for Joseph Smith to be able to tell married women that their marriages to their husbands didn't have God's approval, and that God's will was for them to marry Joseph Smith so that they could gain the Celestial rewards.

[James Banta]

Salvation is a huge can of worms to open. We would have to talk about definitions. (Search past threads in this forum.) As you know, LDS believe that ALL people will live an eternal life of glory, peace, happiness, etc. etc. etc. In order to have this promise you have to do exactly NOTHING. In fact, you can commit crimes of all sorts. In the end, in a historical timeline, all people will come to know that Jesus is the Christ by actually seeing him and what he does. So everyone will eventually know the Savior in some manner by some means. I'm sure you believe this also ("every knee shall bow, every tongue confess"). In order to live in peace and happiness and yes, heaven, LDS people believe you can be any religion and do any bad thing and God will still give you a "kingdom of glory" (telestial). So while our terms may be different than yours or used in different spots, perhaps we should "argue" (not that, really, of course) equivalent concepts instead of terms. Exaltation merely bespeaks of the pinnacle of what God has in store for his children if they want it. It is subsequent to salvation.

LDS salvation is less concerned with a future heaven than it is of rescuing people from their lives of misery that they need help with now (those that do) . . . Jesus is available to rescue us now AND in eternity. Again, I'm sure this is what you believe also.

There really is no fight between what we believe and what you believe. Just the details have been adjusted. Perhaps we are mistaken, perhaps you are. And the idea that heaven will not include marriage is just too sad . . . even if you think it's wrong, can you say it is actually evil and cannot understand LDS for believing it and including it in their religion? (speaking as if we made it up, which, of course, I believe Jesus Christ restored his gospel and Church to us today).

Yes I believe Jesus came to seek and to SAVE that which is lost.. I have shown you what Christians hold will happen to those outside the grace of God.. These are the unsaved.. The saved are those who agree with God that they are sinner and need jesus to save them.. They put their trust in Him and hold tight to the faith thay he provides them.. I know you deny that but we are here to exchange the tenants ot our faith right?

Yip. Exactly. Right on.

No I don't know that eternal life has different meaning withing LDS teaching.. I have been taught that eternal is another name for God and therefore it is the kind of Life that God has.. That would make eternal life and exaltation the same thing.. Immortality is a whole different animal..

Moses 1:39

For behold, this is my awork and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal elife of man.

You tell me I have NOTHING to do to gain some measure of glory.. That is LDS doctrine but it NOT what the Bible teaches.. Look and see:

Rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Not quite like the telestial kingdom is it? What did Joseph Smith say.. If we could see how wonderful the telestial kingdom is we would kill ourselves to get there? I would say that is another place where LDS doctrine is in conflict with the Bible..

Wow, you make it sound like being evil equals being in some other religion, other that LDS that is.. You don't mean that.. I try hard to keep my definitions the same as LDS definitions.. I do know of the differences.. Salvation is a term that is used by LDS people in many ways.. I have seen it used for those who inherit the celestial kingdom, I have seen it used to speak of resurrection.. I guess the context of what is being said is what matters with that term..

There are actually MAJOR differences between your beliefs and mine.. That have to do with the nature od God.. We are told that:

John 17:3

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Now is God a creation of another being who is His God and that God a creation of His God and so forth? That is a major differences.. The Bible teaches that God is God, the only God.. That He has always been God and nothing and no one will ever become what He is.. If your God is not the God He said that He is in the Bible and that He is just a voice in the choir of gods.. Well that isn't the same God I worship.. We have a foundational differences in faith.. If Jesus isn't that uncreated God and He is our spirit brother then we have a fundamental differences in who God is.. There is no salvation in holding faith in a false God. If either of us worships a Baal them we have no hope for life.. According to the Bible only judgment lays ahead... IHS jim

[jimg]

Have the gentiles heard the voice of God? I have! Each time I open my Bible I hear the Holy Spirit speaking to me.. Yes I would say the Gentiles (those who have become His child through faith in Jesus) have heard His voice.. I have explained that Jesus was here first for the Jews.. This is the promise as given to Abraham, then to the Gentiles. That was the promise of Jesus from the beginning it is not a change in doctrine.

Thank you James for your testimony concerning the bible. I think LDS folks will agree with you on this.

I thought I told you that I believe the other sheep Jesus mentioned are the Gentiles.

Have you considered this? You said that you believe that Jesus came only to the House of Israel, and not to those of other lineages. (ie the Greeks) Can we be sure that all of those who were of the House of Israel lived in the general area of Jerusalem? What of other groups who may not have been in the vicinity of Jerusalem? Would not His statement have been all inclusive, and not apply to the area of Jerusalem only?

Would not He have gone to ALL of His sheep (the House of Israel) before sending others (Paul, et.al.) to the gentiles with the gospel? I think sometimes we tend to restrict the works of Christ to fit our own smaller concept of His mission. As He stated in effect, the gentiles would not hear His voice in person, but He would send others to teach the gentiles after He went personally to the house of Israel wherever they were. Doesn't that make sense?

Jim in Texas

[mercyngrace]

No I don't know that eternal life has different meaning withing LDS teaching.. I have been taught that eternal is another name for God and therefore it is the kind of Life that God has.. That would make eternal life and exaltation the same thing.. Immortality is a whole different animal..

Moses 1:39

For behold, this is my awork and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal elife of man.

You tell me I have NOTHING to do to gain some measure of glory.. That is LDS doctrine but it NOT what the Bible teaches.. Look and see:

Rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Not quite like the telestial kingdom is it? What did Joseph Smith say.. If we could see how wonderful the telestial kingdom is we would kill ourselves to get there? I would say that is another place where LDS doctrine is in conflict with the Bible..

Wow, you make it sound like being evil equals being in some other religion, other that LDS that is.. You don't mean that.. I try hard to keep my definitions the same as LDS definitions.. I do know of the differences.. Salvation is a term that is used by LDS people in many ways.. I have seen it used for those who inherit the celestial kingdom, I have seen it used to speak of resurrection.. I guess the context of what is being said is what matters with that term..

There are actually MAJOR differences between your beliefs and mine.. That have to do with the nature od God.. We are told that:

John 17:3

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Now is God a creation of another being who is His God and that God a creation of His God and so forth? That is a major differences.. The Bible teaches that God is God, the only God.. That He has always been God and nothing and no one will ever become what He is.. If your God is not the God He said that He is in the Bible and that He is just a voice in the choir of gods.. Well that isn't the same God I worship.. We have a foundational differences in faith.. If Jesus isn't that uncreated God and He is our spirit brother then we have a fundamental differences in who God is.. There is no salvation in holding faith in a false God. If either of us worships a Baal them we have no hope for life.. According to the Bible only judgment lays ahead... IHS jim

So many errors, so little time.

First off, LDS do believe that the wicked will go to hell but that their time in hell is finite (i.e. David thanks the Lord that He will not leave his soul in hell) It is after this finite period that those souls are resurrected and inherit the lowest kingdom of glory.

Secondly, God is not a name, James, it is a title. In the same way that Father, King, Lord, Master and Rabbi are titles. It is a title than inherently implies a relationship. We reverence and worship our Eternal Father, thus He is our god. This is why He told us not to have other gods before Him - you see, He understood that "God" connotes our feelings about Him not His independent power and glory. Even if the heavens were populated with an endless concourse of all-righteous, all-knowing, all-powerful gods - only our Father would be our "God" because it is only through Him that we have salvation.

[James Banta]

I don't think that D&C 132 says that Polygamy is the New and Everlasting Covenant. What it does say is that Celestial Marriage is the New and Everlasting Covenant. . . and this was important for Joseph Smith to clarify before explaining the law of polygamy later in chapter. This paved the way for Joseph Smith to be able to tell married women that their marriages to their husbands didn't have God's approval, and that God's will was for them to marry Joseph Smith so that they could gain the Celestial rewards.

I respect your view of what the section means.. I don't think you will be willing to respect mine.. I see this:

D&C 132:1-6

Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines

Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.

And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

Joseph inquired of God to find out about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines. He was answered and told that once given God would except obedience.. Then Smith is told that this revelation is the new and an everlasting covenant. Without obeying it no one can enter into God's presence.. Because this is in the context with asking God about polygamy I see that polygamy is the new and everlasting covenant..

See I have my reasons for seeing it the way I do.. Though I don't expect you to see it how I do it would be nice if you could understand how I can... IHS jim

[Daniel Peterson]

Can we be sure that all of those who were of the House of Israel lived in the general area of Jerusalem?

We know for a fact that they didn't. Large Jewish populations existed in Rome, Alexandria, and other areas of the Roman empire, for example. They never heard Jesus' voice during his mortal ministry.

[WalkerW]

Secondly, God is not a name, James, it is a title.

This has been pointed out by many already. I got the following information from Daniel McClellan (this is from my blog):

In A Reassessment of Biblical Elohim, Joel S. Burnett (Ph.D., Biblical and Near Eastern Studies) points out that the Hebrew

[James Banta]

Thank you James for your testimony concerning the bible. I think LDS folks will agree with you on this.

Have you considered this? You said that you believe that Jesus came only to the House of Israel, and not to those of other lineages. (ie the Greeks) Can we be sure that all of those who were of the House of Israel lived in the general area of Jerusalem? What of other groups who may not have been in the vicinity of Jerusalem? Would not His statement have been all inclusive, and not apply to the area of Jerusalem only?

Would not He have gone to ALL of His sheep (the House of Israel) before sending others (Paul, et.al.) to the gentiles with the gospel? I think sometimes we tend to restrict the works of Christ to fit our own smaller concept of His mission. As He stated in effect, the gentiles would not hear His voice in person, but He would send others to teach the gentiles after He went personally to the house of Israel wherever they were. Doesn't that make sense?

Jim in Texas

Hi Jim

Nice name..

You believe that the LDS see the Bible as inerrant as I do? That isn't what I have been told.. They are much closer to what LDS Apostle Orson Pratt said about it:

No one can tell whether even one verse of either the Old or New Testament conveys the ideas of the original author. Just think, 130,000 different readings in the New Testament alone!" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, pp.27-28).

If you can't trust Jesus to keep His word about the message and purity of His word how can you trust him for anything else?

Matt 24:35

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Yes I said that Jesus was sent to Israel not the Gentiles..

Matt 15:24

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

You can say that the Jews were where ever you want to place them I am ONLY saying what Jesus said...

You seem to know the Bible pretty will.. You know that a time after Pentecost Peter was told to go to the Greeks.. I am not second guessing God as I said before I am going by, trusting in, and holding fast to His word.. It would be silly to say that The Church wasn't taken to the Gentiles. It was.. I believe it was all done in God's time, and in God's way.. It's part of trusting Him..

Why couldn't the Christians of the first century hear God's voice? Why can't we hear it NOW? I do.. He speaks to me from His word daily.. Believe me sometime I am very uncomfortable by what I am told.. Most of the time I rest in His grace and love.. The other sheep Jesus said He had were to hear his voice..

John 10:16

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

This tells me that we can all hear His voice... IHS jim

[Redefined]

I respect your view of what the section means.. I don't think you will be willing to respect mine.. I see this:

D&C 132:1-6

Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines

Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.

And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

Joseph inquired of God to find out about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines. He was answered and told that once given God would except obedience.. Then Smith is told that this revelation is the new and an everlasting covenant. Without obeying it no one can enter into God's presence.. Because this is in the context with asking God about polygamy I see that polygamy is the new and everlasting covenant..

See I have my reasons for seeing it the way I do.. Though I don't expect you to see it how I do it would be nice if you could understand how I can... IHS jim

You are taking it out of context by just pointing to the first 6 verses to subsantiate your point. If you even just add one verse on to that, verse 7 explains the "conditions of this law". So basically it is saying. . .

Servant Joseph, you inquired of this polygamy, let me lay it out for you. First you need to understand Celestial Marriage. . . .now let's see how polygamy ties in. Take the whole section into consideration of what it is saying.

[Jason]

So James, you have said that you know that commandments to build an ark, sacrifice one's son etc. in the Bible are given to specific people and need not be fulfilled by everyone. How do you tell when the Bible is speaking to the people of that day as opposed to everyone. The "bishops shall have one wife" idea, for instance - how do you tell if that is a commandment to everyone or just to that people at that time?

[Calm]

But His Commandments to us as His people are always consistent.

I skimmed through the thread, if I missed your answer to the question I'm about to give, please point me in the right direction as I haven't seen it yet.

"His People"---is this group always consistent or has God given commandments that have changed to membership requirements?

God gave the commandment for animal sacrifice and circumcision to His People and it was in effect for quite some time, I do not see how these could qualify as 'specific instructions to specific individuals'. Yet now the commandment is no longer in effect. How does this circumstance fit into your theory.

[jimg]

No I don't know that eternal life has different meaning withing LDS teaching.. I have been taught that eternal is another name for God and therefore it is the kind of Life that God has.. That would make eternal life and exaltation the same thing.. Immortality is a whole different animal..

Moses 1:39

For behold, this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

You bring up several topics in your post James, so I'm going to address them individually in an effort to keep it short and simple.

You are right that LDS folks view salvation, exaltation, and eternal life individually, yet sometimes the terms are also used interchangeably. Specifically speaking, salvation refers to a bodily resurrection. When one is resurrected one is "saved" from physical death, or "the grave". Because of the atonement and the grace of Christ, this is a "free gift"to all who have ever lived or will live as a mortal on this earth. Satan and the third he took with him will never receive a resurrection because they did not "qualify" to receive a mortal body through the physical birth process. (I'll take up exaltation and eternal life in another post.)

While one is yet waiting for their resurrection, if they chose not accept the atonement made by Christ in their behalf, they must atone for their own unrepented sins. This is what is known as "hell". But this "hell" will not last forever and when the individual has "served his term", so to speak, he is then ready for his resurrection. He will then be assigned to some level of glory according to the judgment of God. When the last person is resurrected victory over death will have been accomplished because of the atonement of Christ and as the scripture says, Christ will have put death and hell under His feet and they will be no more.

But let's not confuse this "hell" with the "outter darkness" that is mentioned in the scriptures. "Outter Darkness" is the place prepared for Satan and his angles and for some of the non-repentant ones. They will all go to "outer darkness" where the Holy Spirit will not go, nor will the Light of Christ exist. The scriptures compares this with a "lake of fire" that will last throughout the eternities.

But the "good news" is that Christ has opened the door through His atonement for all who wish to partake. He has once again called mortal men to be living prophets among the people to teach, in our time, what must be done, just as Peter and Paul did to the people in their day. I urge you to open your mind to the possibility that in these last days that Christ has begun to prepare for His coming by calling prophets to prepare the way for Him, just as John the Baptist did 2000 years ago.

You quoted the scripture below. Our Father loves all His children and while respecting our free agency, glories in bringing immortality and eternal life to His children. Indeed we can become like Him and live in His "House" forever. What a great blessing.

Moses 1:39

For behold, this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man

[Maidservant]

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are that one true God.. Three separate and distinct persons each fully God yet these three are the one true and living God.. For The Father is called God in the scripture, Jesus is called God on the scripture, and the Holy Spirit is called God in the scripture

This is exactly LDS doctrine of how there is one God also. I haven't ever heard a trinitarian say the phrase "three separate and distinct persons" in describing trinity (granted, I need to get out more). I (as LDS) am always trying to explain to sectarian Christians I have conversations with exactly how it is we can have three persons yet one God, and this sentence is right on the money.

It took a lot of Faith in God for Noah to build a SHIP of dry ground. It took a lot of faith for Abraham to raise the knife to his only son when God had promised that he would become a great nation (seeing that he was already over 100 years old).. I for one don't marvel at their works here I marvel at their FAITH...

Yes! We can only keep the commandments with our faith in Jesus Christ and with his grace.

Should the women be silence in the churches? YES.. As everyone else should be so that all may hear.. That was a problem in the ancient world.. The churches were configured to put women in the back of the hall. The women would sometimes cause a disturbance because they could hear what was going on.. This caused Paul to tell them to let their husband teach them at home.. Paul didn't tell us we had to separate the sexes and women at least in most Christian churches don't cause a disturbance.. Should they teach men.. The Bible says no and I believe the Bible.. IHS jim

This is really cool, gave me new insight into this verse. So . . . basically having a mic at the church pulpit has solved this problem? He he, just teasin a bit.

But you are correct we are saved by God's grace.. But that grace come through faith.. What I am saying is die to yourself and allow God to live through you.. We are told in the scripture that God is the One responsible for our Good works

Exactly.

I claim salvation here and now.. It isn't something I hope to someday achieve it's mine now (1 John 5:13)

Yes. Me too.

Rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

This would require a longer conversation although mercyngrace alluded to a finite hell. But, again, just saying these things like they are homiles or catechisms to us belies the depth of what can be known. But here is my brief answer to this (needs another thread): ALL people who are fearful, unbelieving, murderers, whoremongers, etc ARE in hell NOW. Hell, like, heaven is what we become and what condition we are in. It isn't a piece of real estate. And these people who have these kinds of struggles will remain in hell UNTIL they receive the atonement of Christ (by faith) which may be forever if they never believe. This is a huge thread derailment, I take responsibility, maybe we can do another thread on hell if you want to pursue this.

Wow, you make it sound like being evil equals being in some other religion, other that LDS that is.. You don't mean that..

Exactly. The fact that you don't know me better is the only way you could even think that for a second. I didn't even use the word evil and I did that deliberately as I don't believe people are evil (mostly, there are a few) but I do believe a lot of people who have the capacity to be good are nevertheless trapped in doing crimes and bad things. Sorry if I didn't make it clear in my sentences. I study and love all religions and all people of all belief systems.

I respect your view of what the section means.. I don't think you will be willing to respect mine.. See I have my reasons for seeing it the way I do.. Though I don't expect you to see it how I do it would be nice if you could understand how I can... IHS jim

You know, this is fine. It is. I know you weren't even talking to me here, but, Jim, I and we love to hear from all kinds of spiritual and religious people about their thoughts, faith and testimony. I am not interested in telling you that you are wrong about YOUR religion. I hope you realize that this is not the angle we are taking in this discourse. We know you follow Christ. We know you follow the Bible. We know you love God. We know you love fellowmen. We know you are saved. We know God knows you and loves you, answers your prayers. We know the Holy Spirit talks to you. Et cetera.

What we are talking about is how you misunderstand US. We are trying to clarify. People oversimplify and put crazy angles on LDS beliefs -- like a hall of funny mirrors in a carnival and how they compare to, say, a bathroom mirror. Posters come here project their own way of looking at the world and the scriptures and God, and think that LDS have the same way of looking out (i.e. condemning others of other beliefs; we don't). Disagreeing is one thing. We can do that. We can leave it at a state of disagreement. LDS beliefs being charicaterized beyond recognition isn't okay. We keep trying to throw words at peeps who come by in order to mitigate the latter.

Now, Jim, you've actually been very nice and intelligent and fair and so forth, so I appreciate continuing to converse with you and learn what you know about God. But I just want you to know that I am not interested in telling you that you are wrong, that has never been the motivation behind my responses. My responses are so you can see ME and the LDS more clearly, even if you find you must still disagree.

Later . . .