Exaltaion requirements

[Deborah]

From the Wilford Woodruff Journals, 1896-97 we know that President Wilford Woodruff took Madame Mountford for his wife in Sept. 1897..

You do realize that Pres. Woodruff was 90 years old in 1897?

from Meridian Magazine:

A side drama not known to the general public was the close friendship that developed between Madame Mountford and Church president Wilford Woodruff. Rumor had it that she was secretly sealed to President Woodruff. That seems farfetched. Thomas Alexander, Woodruff's biographer, after examining the evidence, concludes that the relationship was one of friendship and mutual admiration. But she was invited to speak at general conference, and it is a matter of record that in 1920, three years after her death, she was vicariously sealed to Wilford Woodruff.

Mdme Mountford

[Deborah]

I have had many LDS people tell me I have taken this quote out of context and I worded the question this thread was based on to reflect that a person might only have to be a 'polygamist of the heart'.

But you don't understand it has nothing to do with polygamy. It has to do with obedience to God's commandments and following his living prophets. Why on earth would someone believe he has to be a a polygamist at heart if in fact it is against the commandment at the time he is living to be a polygamist?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You do realize that Pres. Woodruff was 90 years old in 1897?

from Meridian Magazine:

Mdme Mountford

There you have it.

[James Banta]

So when another poster said "he's trying to ask whether you believe you have to do everything that God commands" and you said "Yes, that's what I was after!" you were in fact lying? The question is "only about polygamy", not about following God's commands?

Then no, I don't believe you must be "a polygamist at heart" in order to be saved. I believe that if God requires you to be a polygamist you must be a polygamist, and if He requires you NOT to be a polygamist, you must NOT be a polygamist.

It works the same way as many other of Gods commands.

When He required the Israelites to sacrifice animals, they would be breaking His commandments if they did not do so. Now that He no longer requires animal sacrifice we are not breaking any commandment if we do not do so.

Noah was required to build an ark. I am not required to build an ark. I am not breaking God's commandments if I don't build an ark.

Do you believe that God cannot require different things of different people under different circumstances?

During Christ's life there was no preaching to the gentiles. Just a few years later, Peter received a vision showing that he should now take the gospel to the gentiles. Do you believe God could not have changed His mind so quickly and that Peter was in error?

You seem like an intelligent man. You know that doctrines of the church had come and gone.. Recently there was a change in the idea that Protestant ministers are employees of the devil. You understand that many of the statements Brigham Young made 'Adam-God' are no longer considered gospel.. I am not saying that you need to believe Young's statements.. If you did I would be really worried about you.. It is clear that he had a testimony of polygamy as a saving ordinance of God.. I think that he was wrong.. I lean on Jesus and Him only for my salvation.. IHS jim

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I can see your love for your church and family in your words.. I have nothing against that though I found much of your beliefs unbiblical.. We can discuss these things if you wish.. I would like to start with your comment about our God potential.. Would you like to explain that in more depth or would you like me to take it as what I think it means.. The possibility to become what the FATHER is now.. I also see this as saying that the FATHER has a God to Created (organized) Him.. and that God had a God who had a God who... In Isaiah God states clearly that:

Isaiah 44:8

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

The mighty God that doesn't know something that Joseph Smith did know? That is a hard pill to swallow.. IHS jim

Nice spin. Any way lets stick to what the bible does say. God is a God of gods, and is the most high God.

Is God a God if false or non exsistant gods? If he is the most high God that would denote that there are oother "not most high" gods.

I reject your interpretation of this verse as there are plenty of other scriptures that tell us that "though there be gods man and lords many weather in heaven or in earth. THere is but one God to us."

Are there false gods living in hevean?

Think of this James, how can there be more than one god yet only one God? Once you figure it out you might learn something.

BTW there is no pill to swallow.

What did Jesus mean when he said, " To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

But you don't understand it has nothing to do with polygamy. It has to do with obedience to God's commandments and following his living prophets. Why on earth would someone believe he has to be a a polygamist at heart if in fact it is against the commandment at the time he is living to be a polygamist?

That is the million dollar question.

It is clear that he had a testimony of polygamy as a saving ordinance of God.. I think that he was wrong.. I lean on Jesus and Him only for my salvation.. IHS jim

He did?

Yet you cannot be saved if you willfully turn from christ. You must have faith and works (synergism) to access grace. Remeber that faith alone is dead. I trust in Jesus so taht is why I do what he asks me to do. Jesus taught that only those who do the will of the Father will be in the kingdom of Hevean not those that just say "Lord, Lord".

It must be a hard pill to swallow knowing that you are teaching an unbiblical way to salvation.

[i am ribbing you here]

[Jason]

You seem like an intelligent man. You know that doctrines of the church had come and gone.. Recently there was a change in the idea that Protestant ministers are employees of the devil. You understand that many of the statements Brigham Young made 'Adam-God' are no longer considered gospel.. I am not saying that you need to believe Young's statements.. If you did I would be really worried about you.. It is clear that he had a testimony of polygamy as a saving ordinance of God.. I think that he was wrong.. I lean on Jesus and Him only for my salvation.. IHS jim

I notice you're dodging my questions.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

James,

I notice you're dodging my questions.

Here is the question

Do you believe that God cannot require different things of different people under different circumstances?

[James Banta]

So when another poster said "he's trying to ask whether you believe you have to do everything that God commands" and you said "Yes, that's what I was after!" you were in fact lying? The question is "only about polygamy", not about following God's commands?

Then no, I don't believe you must be "a polygamist at heart" in order to be saved. I believe that if God requires you to be a polygamist you must be a polygamist, and if He requires you NOT to be a polygamist, you must NOT be a polygamist.

It works the same way as many other of Gods commands.

When He required the Israelites to sacrifice animals, they would be breaking His commandments if they did not do so. Now that He no longer requires animal sacrifice we are not breaking any commandment if we do not do so.

Noah was required to build an ark. I am not required to build an ark. I am not breaking God's commandments if I don't build an ark.

Do you believe that God cannot require different things of different people under different circumstances?

During Christ's life there was no preaching to the gentiles. Just a few years later, Peter received a vision showing that he should now take the gospel to the gentiles. Do you believe God could not have changed His mind so quickly and that Peter was in error?

Do you make it your practice to call people you don't know liars? That post was about polygamy in my eyes.. He said that He would do whatever he believed was the command of God.. In reference to the question I believed that he was talking about polygamy.. I am sorry you had to brand me as this level of a sinner without at least asking me about it.. You do understand that before God a liar is just as evil and a murderer?

Rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

While God provided commandments to specific people for specific issues the Law endures forever.. The daily sacrifice to Christians is fulfilled in the eternal sacrifice of Jesus.. For the Jews they are outsides God commandments in not conducting them. The over 600 commandments of the Old Testament are still in affect over all of us.. They are a schoolmaster showing us that we are sinners in need of a savior.. They bring us to Jesus.. You don't believe God has lessons for us to learn in the stories of the Flood, or the sacrifice of Issac? I do there is great reward to each of us to obey God's commandments all of them.. I feel so much better when I obey the law of the Sabbath. A full day of rest and contemplation of His word!!! It is so refreshing.. You understand when I say Sabbath I mean Sabbath not SUNDAY..

Was Peter wrong because Jesus said that He was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel and not to the gentiles? No that was God's way, first to Israel then to the Greek.. I know you won't agree with me but the other sheep Jesus said were to hear His voice and they would be one flock under Him their Shepard. These are the Gentils. I can't see that this is a change for God in anyway.. You will make an interesting partner to exchange teachings with if you can back off the personal attacks.. I hope I explained what a terrible thing lying is to me.. You can disagree with me, even think I am so wrong I wouldn't know the truth if it bite me, and maybe you will misunderstand what I mean from time to time, so ask me to explain, which I will always try to do, but please don't accuse me of being a sinner to be mentioned in the same breath with murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, and idolaters.. I will do the same for you.. Deal? IHS jim

[James Banta]

I am unable to find a refrence for polygamy being required in teh D&C verses you quoted. I find one for teh N&EC, but not one for plural marriage. James if you are going to "teach" us something you need to at least read and understand waht is being talked about here.

At least you got most of it right. I will bold the parts you got right. The latterafter the bolded part is not church doctrine. I am not a polygmasit so how would it be required for me?

Take a look at what Smith calls the New and everlasting covenant of marriage in section 132 of the D&C.. It was clear to me.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

James,

Here is the question

Yes but not to gain salvation.. That is a constant.. I would hate to have God changing the requirements when I had no way to fulfill them.. If we must obey God to gain eternal life. That obedience is FIXED in His will.. He won't add or subtract as we go along.. Case in point.. If Noah had not believed God would he have undertaken the building of the Ark? I personally see his obedience as a manifestation of his faith.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

"You would think"? That's kind of vague. No actual biblical reference for where ONE wife is required for the leaders of the church?

Of course there is I thought you would know it..

1Tim 3:2

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach IHS jim

[James Banta]

James,

lets give you the benefit of the doubt, lets say we accept your spin on it all. Why would Christ want a liar to be one of his apostles? Why would he want a doubter? Why would he want a betrayer? Why did he choose a guy that sent out an extermination order on his people own people? Could you imagine if Paul were a live today? Given your track record I venture to say that there is no way you would believe that Paul was an apostle give what he had done in the past.

Why would God want imperfect men to be his apostles? Lets be consitant here. Why did God pick Jonah? He was such a wuss that he thought he could hide from God and had to be swalled up by a whale to change his corse.

The answer to your question is: yes. Per the bible, it would seem that God uses imperfect poeple to do his will.

I find the weakness other men had and what God did through them to me a great comfort.. I am far from being a good man.. And even in my weaknesses he uses me.. PRAISE GOD for such grace... IHS jim

[Jason]

Do you make it your practice to call people you don't know liars?

I didn't call you a liar, I asked if you had been lying. My purpose was to point out a seeming contradiction in your posts and provoke you to an explanation. Sometimes it's hard to get someone to respond to one of my posts, so I sometimes spice them up so they can't be ignored very easily. I'm glad it worked on this occasion.

While God provided commandments to specific people for specific issues the Law endures forever.. The daily sacrifice to Christians is fulfilled in the eternal sacrifice of Jesus..

So the Law endures forever once it is given, but can be fulfilled so that those who come later no longer need to practice it. Hmmm. A law that was once vital but now need no longer be fulfilled. What does that remind me of?

he over 600 commandments of the Old Testament are still in affect over all of us.. They are a schoolmaster showing us that we are sinners in need of a savior..

"In affect" but not actually practiced? Because they were fulfilled? How can a fulfilled law still be in effect?

They bring us to Jesus.. You don't believe God has lessons for us to learn in the stories of the Flood, or the sacrifice of Issac?

Of course I do. However I do not accept God's commandment to Noah to build an ark or Abraham to sacrifice his son as a commandment to ME to build an ark or sacrifice my son. Such commandments were clearly for the time and circumstances in which they were given. The Church's practice of plural marriage is the same.

You understand when I say Sabbath I mean Sabbath not SUNDAY..

Curious. Are you a 7th Day Adevntist?

I know you won't agree with me but the other sheep Jesus said were to hear His voice and they would be one flock under Him their Shepard. These are the Gentils.

Did the Gentiles literally "hear his voice"?

In any case, it may have a double meaning - the literal meaning of letting the Nephites hear his voice, and the more poetic meaning you are subscribing to.

I can't see that this is a change for God in anyway..

Refusing to allow teach anything to the gentiles, and then the next day commanding your servants to teach the gentiles is not a change?

[Jason]

Of course there is I thought you would know it..

Ah, but my question was about whether you could back up what you were claiming, not about what I know.

1Tim 3:2

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach IHS jim

Great.

So how can we tell if this was an eternal Law sort of thing or something that was given specifically for the early Christian Church and not neccessarily required of us, and how exactly should we apply these requirements?

Would someone be disqualified as a bishop if his wife died, for instance? What if he died and re-married? He would then have TWO wives, wouldn't he? And the requirement says nothing about living or dead.

I notice in the next few verses it says he also has to "[rule] well in his own house" and "[have] his children in subjection with all gravity;" So does a bishop need to own a house? Does he have to have children?

What if his children grow up and leave his house - is he still qualified to be a bishop?

It also says "he must have a good report of them which are without" - "without" meaning "those outside the faith". So the non-members get to decide when someone can't be a bishop anymore, by giving him a bad report?

"Blameless" is also a tricky one, isn't it? Is anyone truly "blameless"?

Really, the passage raises more questions than it solves, don't you think? Maybe we could use a little more guidance.

I notice also that there seems to be a little contradiction later on - in verse 11 the deacon's "wives" must be "grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things", but in verse 12 Paul says they should have one wife. Which is it? Wives or wife?

Ooh, and of course the chapter before contains that unpleasant bit about "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." Is that another one of those eternal law commandments? Are women in your faith allowed to teach, or speak in Church?

[divinenature]

Seems like it would be easier to just ask what the LDS church believes is required for exaltation.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I find the weakness other men had and what God did through them to me a great comfort.. I am far from being a good man.. And even in my weaknesses he uses me.. PRAISE GOD for such grace... IHS jim

I take it that you see my point? I hope so. What I must ask next is, why can't you extened the same curtousy to the modernday prophets? I am not talking about weather or not you actually think they are modernday prophets, I am talking about their charactors.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Yes but not to gain salvation.. That is a constant.. I would hate to have God changing the requirements when I had no way to fulfill them.. If we must obey God to gain eternal life. That obedience is FIXED in His will.. He won't add or subtract as we go along.. Case in point.. If Noah had not believed God would he have undertaken the building of the Ark? I personally see his obedience as a manifestation of his faith.. IHS jim

Suck to have been a Jew then living around the time of Christ. Sucks to have been a person living at the time of Moses too. I agree that works are a "manifestation of faith" However James tells us taht with out works our faith is dead. You must have works to make faith alive. I am not talkin about living a perfect life. what I am talking about is giving all that you can to live the best life you can. If you do that and have faith then you will be saved. If you have faith but do not live that kind of a life how can one claim salvation? Works don't save us any more than faith saves us, but they are required to gain grace.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Take a look at what Smith calls the New and everlasting covenant of marriage in section 132 of the D&C.. It was clear to me.. IHS jim

The N&EC is marriage. It is not polygamous marriage though Polygamous marriage can be contained with the N&EC. Polygmous marriage would be the Law of Sara. Polygamous marrige is talked about in D&C 132 though. I suggest reading it again or post the verses that you think make polygamy a requirement.

[T-Shirt]

Of course there is I thought you would know it..

1Tim 3:2

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach IHS jim

James,

Unfortunately, that verse doesn't mean what you think it does. It refers to men who had been married more than once, after having been divorced. It has nothing to do with plural marriage. I can give you references if you don't believe me.

By the way, I do not feel, at all, threatened by you, and I think having you on this board is a good thing.

Best,

T-Shirt

[jimg]

Of course there is I thought you would know it..

1Tim 3:2

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach IHS jim

I think that Paul is giving young Timothy sound advice here, but I see no "church doctrine" in it. I think that all would agree that a Bishop should be a mature individual, even married and with a loving family. One who is "vigilant, sober, of good behavior, and given to hospitality". These are all attributes that a leader in the Church should posses, but I don't see Paul's statement to Timothy as anything more than very good advice. It seems that too often we have the idea that if something is written in the bible that it is "hard doctrine".

Unfortunately, this thinking often leads to establishing in the mind of some that the bible is an entity unto itself, and one that is worshiped as if it were an idol.

[Maidservant]

Yes but not to gain salvation.. That is a constant.. I would hate to have God changing the requirements when I had no way to fulfill them.. If we must obey God to gain eternal life.

Salvation is a huge can of worms to open. We would have to talk about definitions. (Search past threads in this forum.) As you know, LDS believe that ALL people will live an eternal life of glory, peace, happiness, etc. etc. etc. In order to have this promise you have to do exactly NOTHING. In fact, you can commit crimes of all sorts. In the end, in a historical timeline, all people will come to know that Jesus is the Christ by actually seeing him and what he does. So everyone will eventually know the Savior in some manner by some means. I'm sure you believe this also ("every knee shall bow, every tongue confess"). In order to live in peace and happiness and yes, heaven, LDS people believe you can be any religion and do any bad thing and God will still give you a "kingdom of glory" (telestial). So while our terms may be different than yours or used in different spots, perhaps we should "argue" (not that, really, of course) equivalent concepts instead of terms. Exaltation merely bespeaks of the pinnacle of what God has in store for his children if they want it. It is subsequent to salvation.

LDS salvation is less concerned with a future heaven than it is of rescuing people from their lives of misery that they need help with now (those that do) . . . Jesus is available to rescue us now AND in eternity. Again, I'm sure this is what you believe also.

There really is no fight between what we believe and what you believe. Just the details have been adjusted. Perhaps we are mistaken, perhaps you are. And the idea that heaven will not include marriage is just too sad . . . even if you think it's wrong, can you say it is actually evil and cannot understand LDS for believing it and including it in their religion? (speaking as if we made it up, which, of course, I believe Jesus Christ restored his gospel and Church to us today).

If Noah had not believed God would he have undertaken the building of the Ark? I personally see his obedience as a manifestation of his faith.. IHS jim

Yip. Exactly. Right on.

[James Banta]

Nice spin. Any way lets stick to what the bible does say. God is a God of gods, and is the most high God.

Is God a God if false or non exsistant gods? If he is the most high God that would denote that there are oother "not most high" gods.

I reject your interpretation of this verse as there are plenty of other scriptures that tell us that "though there be gods man and lords many weather in heaven or in earth. THere is but one God to us."

Are there false gods living in hevean?

Think of this James, how can there be more than one god yet only one God? Once you figure it out you might learn something.

BTW there is no pill to swallow.

What did Jesus mean when he said, " To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

All I did was to quote a scripture if you saw spin on it it was your spin.. God Said that He doesn't know any other Gods. But yes man has created false gods. Man did not God.. So yes there are many false god but to a Christian there is One God.. By man invention there can be many things that are called god but only one true and living God.. That is a great truth that God spelled out to Isaiah..

Didn't you tell me that you served a mission in he Bible belt? And you can still ask me how Jesus and the Father are one God? I am a Trinitarian Christian.. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are that one true God.. Three separate and distinct persons each fully God yet these three are the one true and living God.. This is the only doctrine that makes the full Bile true. For The Father is called God in the scripture, Jesus is called God on the scripture, and the Holy Spirit is called God in the scripture but the scripture in clear The Lord our God is one Lord.. If we use the Hebrew words for Lord and God in the passage it's even more clear.. YHWH our Elohim is one YHWH.. Jesus claimed to be that YHWH in John 8:58.. The same words God used to tell Moses what His name is at the burning bush.. 'I AM'.. To add any other Gods to a list of deity is to deny God's word on the matter "Before Me was No God formed neither will there be after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).. You don't have to believe any of this I just answered your question " how can there be more than one god yet only one God?" and "What did Jesus mean when he said, " To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."" IHS jim

[James Banta]

Has James answered this question yet?

If not let me do it now... God is the same yesterday today and forever.. He will not command me to break a command He gave earlier.. No! I would not break the commandment of God to keep a commandment of god.. For such a command would be from a false god pretending to be the God of all creation... IHS jim

[James Banta]

I didn't call you a liar, I asked if you had been lying. My purpose was to point out a seeming contradiction in your posts and provoke you to an explanation. Sometimes it's hard to get someone to respond to one of my posts, so I sometimes spice them up so they can't be ignored very easily. I'm glad it worked on this occasion.

So the Law endures forever once it is given, but can be fulfilled so that those who come later no longer need to practice it. Hmmm. A law that was once vital but now need no longer be fulfilled. What does that remind me of?

"In affect" but not actually practiced? Because they were fulfilled? How can a fulfilled law still be in effect?

Of course I do. However I do not accept God's commandment to Noah to build an ark or Abraham to sacrifice his son as a commandment to ME to build an ark or sacrifice my son. Such commandments were clearly for the time and circumstances in which they were given. The Church's practice of plural marriage is the same.

Curious. Are you a 7th Day Adevntist?

Did the Gentiles literally "hear his voice"?

In any case, it may have a double meaning - the literal meaning of letting the Nephites hear his voice, and the more poetic meaning you are subscribing to.

Refusing to allow teach anything to the gentiles, and then the next day commanding your servants to teach the gentiles is not a change?

If you didn't mean to call me a liar then don't used the word.. Just ask what I mean I will try to get to it and tell you.. I think I have been doing a fair job at keeping up with questions.. At least I have been trying to do so.. I told you this because of the seriousness of the sin of lying.. I will never accuse you of being such no matter how wrong I think k you are.. I just ask for that same consideration.. Yes using the word lie gets my attention but use it in reference to me again and there will be no more responds to you.. It is that serious to me.. I hope you understand.. I will do all I can to make sure you get my attention.. Name calling will not be necessary..

Yes the Law can be fulfilled.. If lived perfectly it is satisfied.. If all your life you never run a red light the law is fulfilled in your obedience.. This is what Jesus did He lived the Law perfectly.. Then He offers to Give His righteousness to all who will trust Him to do so (Believe on Him)

2 Cor 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The Bible clearly says that the Law is our Schoolmaster to bring us to Jesus.. We all told that all of us are sinners before a Holy God.. We have sin in us we don't even know is there.. None of us is righteous, not One.. So when we see the Law, we realize that we are in a fallen state before God and need HELP!!! Jesus is that help and came to save us from this fallen state.. But as Paul said shall we continue to sin that God's grace may abound.. God forbid.. We that are dead to sin should no longer live in it.. God's commandments to Noah , and to Abraham showed us the faith we should have in the Lord.. It took a lot of Faith in God for Noah to build a SHIP of dry ground. It took a lot of faith for Abraham to raise the knife to his only son when God had promised that he would become a great nation (seeing that he was already over 100 years old).. I for one don't marvel at their works here I marvel at their FAITH..

I guess it's only fair. I know that you are LDS, I am a nondenominational Christian.. I attend a small church in Sandy Utah called 'Sandy Ridge Christian Fellowship'.. I know that doesn't help you know what religion I am.. So I will say I believe strictly in the independence of the Local Church (That means no outside ecclesiastical control over the church). I believe in be obedient to God and teach baptism by immersion. I believe the church is a image of the larger Church of Jesus. I believe that salvation is by God's grace through faith in Jesus plus NOTHING. I believe in the eternal security of the believer (You guys call it once saved always saved). I believe the Bible in it's original language to be the inerrant word of God.. Just in case you don't recognized these doctrines they are what men have called BAPTIST doctrine..

Have the gentiles heard the voice of God? I have! Each time I open my Bible I hear the Holy Spirit speaking to me.. Yes I would say the Gentiles (those who have become His child through faith in Jesus) have heard His voice.. I have explained that Jesus was here first for the Jews.. This is the promise as given to Abraham, then to the Gentiles. That was the promise of Jesus from the beginning it is not a change in doctrine.. I thought I told you that I believe the other sheep Jesus mentioned are the Gentiles.. BTW I don't believe any part of the story line of the BofM.. Just the parts there were copied from the KJV Bible... IHS jim