Exaltaion requirements

[SearchDog]

I would rather not have you reply at all rather than to give me spelling and English lessens.. IHS JIm

Like I said, I can't reply because your ideas are not clearly presented. I don't want to assume what you are trying to say.

The responsibility to communicate rests with the communicator.

Your love for Christ comes across loud and clear as you speak of His forgiving gift in the Atonement. But why do you speak as if I am not entitled to that same free gift because of my faith in the validity of His sacrifice?

It is not just the grammatical issues. It is as if you are panting out some doctrine that you think you have and the LDS have missed. Mormons are well aware of salvation by grace through faith. We are saved by this same grace.

The difference is that Mormons carry their faith in the Atonement a step further as we are baptized in water unto repentance, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, serve God and Christ in the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods, marry as eternal pairs in Israel, and raise up children unto Christ.

We don't hop, skip, and jump through scripture as you and so many Christians claiming the Spirit is with us, professing baptism is only a public witness, and declaring all believers are made priests and kings.

To believe such things ignores the requirement Christ put forward to His church saying, "If ye are not one, ye are not mine." Christianity can by no means claim to be one unity church. Only the LDS church is one with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

[SearchDog]

All I see the passage

[James Banta]

['SearchDog' date=09 November 2009 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1257813443' post='1208750572]..

Why do you speak as if I am not entitled to that same free gift because of my faith in the validity of His sacrifice? It is as if you are panting out some doctrine that you think you have and the LDS have missed. Mormons are well aware of salvation by grace through faith. We are saved by this same grace.

I have been around LDS People everyday of my life. I have seen them make the gift of salvation by grace through faith into nothing more than the resurrection form the grave.. This happens so often that I sometimes assume that when the subject is spoken of this is all that a mormon means.. I went around and around with a young LM on my front porch of the meaning of John 3:16.. I would quote it she would say, "Oh that is only resurrection" Then I would point out that there is a requirement to believe in Jesus in the passage and ask her if only believers would be resurrected. She would say No, resurrection is for all then I would go back quote the verse and she would say "Oh that is only resurrection".. You can understand my level of frustration..

The difference is that Mormons carry their faith in the Atonement a step further as we are baptized in water unto repentance, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, serve God and Christ in the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods, marry as eternal pairs in Israel, and raise up children unto Christ.

In short you add more to the Gospel than is found in the Bible.. You have a different gospel than the Gospel lived by Jesus and explained by His Apostles? Different in tfat it is not the Gospel that can be found in the Bible alone?

We don't hop, skip, and jump through scripture as you and so many Christians claiming the Spirit is with us, professing baptism is only a public witness, and declaring all believers are made priests and kings.

You don't? Tell me then what LDS people do with passages such as Isaiah 29:11-12, Ezekiel 37:16-20, Rev 2:17? These are called proof texts.. I personally don't see the proof of the LDS church in them, never the less many of your faithful "hop, skip, and jump through (these) scriptures" explaining that they prove the LDS church is true.

To believe such things ignores the requirement Christ put forward to His church saying, "If ye are not one, ye are not mine." Christianity can by no means claim to be one unity church. Only the LDS church is one with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

This is a point that your knowledge has failed you.. No Christian believes that the church they attend is the one true Church.. But we do believe that Jesus has added us to that universal Church.. The Ecclesia (the called out ones), the Body, and Bride of Himself. The one true and living Church (Acts 2:47).. This is the unity of all believers, this is what most LDS people miss as they look into Christianity. All you see in the sectarian differences that separate us.. Some believers like the liturgical feel of the Catholic or Lutheran churches. Other like the free form excitement of the Assembles of God. Others, like me, like that quiet worship of a conservative Bible church.. But we still see each other as part of that Ecclesia, the universal Church.. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Despite how rigid and literal you seem to be with biblical interpretations, you seem very liberal with dishing out the phrase "deny the deity of Christ." Saying you don't think He turned water into wine hardly constitutes denying the deity of Christ.

And as I said, she has written that Christ was Yahweh. Can't see how that denies His deity.

Denying the miracles, Denying the scripture does deny His deity.. I however and not surprised that you don't think it does.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Thank you for the prayer.

I'm not much for prayer, so I'll just say that I really hope you one day decide to dive into what the original language of the Bible meant during the time it was written. As you believe (at least I assume you do) that it is the source of G-d

[James Banta]

['SearchDog' date=09 November 2009 - 06:40 PM' timestamp='1257817253' post='1208750591]

You must have come across the LDS doctrine that God is three personages in One Godhead. The LDS believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as being One God. And yes, we understand God the Father to be God, God the Son to be God, and that the Holy Ghost is also God. However, this does not equal an idolatry of three Gods.

You don't know how pleased I am to see that you hold the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be the one true and living God.. This of course is Not the teachings of Joseph Smith.. I thought he was the prophet that brought you the TRUE understanding of the nature of God, that He is a glorified man not just a Spirit? Here is what he taught, and said that he always taught it:

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it! (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473)

This seems out of step with what you just told me...Smith made it clear that the Holy Ghost is Spirit why is it when Jesus says that "God is a Spirit" (John 4:24) that so often those words are bent to say "God has a Spirit".

The three personages in God are all united in the Word and in the Priesthood.

This has nothing to do with your assertion that Jesus is your Father. It is true that Jesus is the Word and Jesus is a priest, but this does not make Him your Father any more than my speaking the word of God makes me your father because what I say comes from the Holy Spirit. If you believe it you are born of the Spirit, who is of course also the Word. But my words are not my own, they come from God.

I have given you the passage of Scripture that clearly says that Jesus is the everlasting Father. You are free to dismiss it if you wish.. Jesus is not just a priest, He is the High Priest.. He alone went into the Holy, of Holies (right before the throne of God) with His own blood the blood of the Lamb and offered it the a sacrifice for sin, ALL SIN.. That is the duty of the High Priest. What I say comes from God's word as taught to me by the Holy Spirit..These word are His not mine the meaning of them come from God as well. For He teaches me through The Holy Spirit whom He promised would be given to all that believe (John 7:39)..

The fact that Isaiah foretells that the Anointed One will be born and called the Everlasting Father does not make all those who partake of salvation the children of Jesus. As scripture says, salvation through Christ brings us to the Father. Christians are the children of God the Father. We were all created as His spirit children in the pre-mortal life before coming to earth. Jesus was one of those spirits.

I believe the scripture where Jesus is called God.. I believe it in Isaiah, I believe it in the Gospels. If Isaiah calls Jesus the everlasting Father, Jesus says that He is the God that spoke to Moses from the burning bush, That He is the Word of God made flesh who IS God and there is only one God then Jesus is the everlasting Father and much as the Father is.. Jesus was never created but was always God with the Father.. He is the creator of ALL things.. In my experience LDS people have trouble with the word 'ALL'.. It is an all inclusive word and means EVERYTHING. This means that He created you both physically and spiritually.. Look at what the Bible says Jesus created:

John 1:3

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:16

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

The path of Jesus into Fatherhood is prescribed by the priesthood as a union of Christ and His Church. We in the priesthood follow this same path and become eternal Fathers and Mothers to our spirit children. But Fathers in Christ remain brothers to Jesus because we are brothers in the priesthood.

As I have asked you before show me where priesthood has any other duties than sacrifice. A priest in a person who stands between man and God with blood to offer as a sacrifice for the sins of the people to a Holy God.. I know of no credit of a priest for any other matter but that.. I don't see where priesthood is any kind of authority.. Not to rule the church, a family, or to act in God's name.. If anything a Priest acts in man's name before God..

The LDS doctrine is the fulfillment of Isaiah whereby we call Christ (all in His priesthood) the Eternal Father. Jesus is not a priesthood of one. We share in His Fatherhood.

I can't find this concept anywhere in the scripture.. I see believers being joint heirs with Jesus of the Kingdom..

I don't see us sharing the Fatherhood of God anywhere.. All the Father has created will be ours but we will never share His Godhood. For God alone is God there will never be another.. IHS jim

[SearchDog]

You don't know how pleased I am to see that you hold the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be the one true and living God.. This of course is Not the teachings of Joseph Smith.. I thought he was the prophet that brought you the TRUE understanding of the nature of God, that He is a glorified man not just a Spirit? Here is what he taught, and said that he always taught it:

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it! (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473)

This seems out of step with what you just told me...Smith made it clear that the Holy Ghost is Spirit why is it when Jesus says that "God is a Spirit" (John 4:24) that so often those words are bent to say "God has a Spirit".

I have given you the passage of Scripture that clearly says that Jesus is the everlasting Father. You are free to dismiss it if you wish.. Jesus is not just a priest, He is the High Priest.. He alone went into the Holy, of Holies (right before the throne of God) with His own blood the blood of the Lamb and offered it the a sacrifice for sin, ALL SIN.. That is the duty of the High Priest. What I say comes from God's word as taught to me by the Holy Spirit..These word are His not mine the meaning of them come from God as well. For He teaches me through The Holy Spirit whom He promised would be given to all that believe (John 7:39)..

I believe the scripture where Jesus is called God.. I believe it in Isaiah, I believe it in the Gospels. If Isaiah calls Jesus the everlasting Father, Jesus says that He is the God that spoke to Moses from the burning bush, That He is the Word of God made flesh who IS God and there is only one God then Jesus is the everlasting Father and much as the Father is.. Jesus was never created but was always God with the Father.. He is the creator of ALL things.. In my experience LDS people have trouble with the word 'ALL'.. It is an all inclusive word and means EVERYTHING. This means that He created you both physically and spiritually.. Look at what the Bible says Jesus created:

John 1:3

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:16

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

As I have asked you before show me where priesthood has any other duties than sacrifice. A priest in a person who stands between man and God with blood to offer as a sacrifice for the sins of the people to a Holy God.. I know of no credit of a priest for any other matter but that.. I don't see where priesthood is any kind of authority.. Not to rule the church, a family, or to act in God's name.. If anything a Priest acts in man's name before God..

I can't find this concept anywhere in the scripture.. I see believers being joint heirs with Jesus of the Kingdom..

I don't see us sharing the Fatherhood of God anywhere.. All the Father has created will be ours but we will never share His Godhood. For God alone is God there will never be another.. IHS jim

The scriptures make it clear that we are to share in Christ

[Doctor Steuss]

There are giant scholars.. Men and women of great learning in the History and language of the writers of the Bible.. They have produced acclaimed translations of the word.. You may not respect them but I trust their scholarly prayerful work.. This is why my first choice as a study Bible is the NASB.. IHS jim

*Sigh*

I "may not respect them"? What's with the polemics? It isn't me who has said they don

[James Banta]

['SearchDog' date=10 November 2009 - 08:27 AM' timestamp='1257866868' post='1208750770]

The scriptures make it clear that we are to share in Christ

[James Banta]

*Sigh*

I "may not respect them"? What's with the polemics? It isn't me who has said they don

[Doctor Steuss]

I show you the grace and truth that is in Jesus and only in Jesus and you call me a divisionist. Smith teaches that only through his teachings is there either grace or truth but he isn't a divisionist now is he?

What post are you responding to here? Definitely not mine.

(I will assume this is just some form of rhetoric device you're employing here, and not a reflection of your overall reading comprehension, especially in regards to the Bible)

You are correct in saying a translation can't be made on a word for word basis.. This is why you see in the KJV and the NASB words in italics. These indicate words added to make the translation flow properly in English..

You

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go be embittered about some other English translations of ancient texts (really, you're a funny guy James)

[DH]

Must a person be a polygamist (At least in heart) to receive exaltation?

Not if you believe the Book of Mormon.

DH

[SearchDog]

I have no trouble accepting the Biblical facts that we will rule and rein with Jesus.. I have shown you from the scripture what priesthood is and what it's duties are.. If you have other information about what priesthood is please show it to me.. If you can't then I have to assume you are speaking about a subject with man made ideas as to what they are.. There is no Biblical demand of marriage for salvation no matter what level you wish to assign to it.. Paul was an Apostles of Jesus Christ called directly by Jesus to be His apostle to the gentiles yet he was actually hostile toward marriage..

The Melchizedek priesthood is the apostolic priesthood the same as the Apostles had. We covenant to give our lives in the service of God and Christ unto death. We speak the word of God by the power of the Holy Ghost. Our duty is to preach the gospel of salvation, to call people unto repentance, to baptize in water (actually an Aaronic priesthood duty but we can also baptize), and to lay hands upon the heads of believers for the gift of the Holy Ghost (the second baptism of the Spirit) just as the Apostles of the first church did. Beyond the doctrine of salvation, we teach of the greater glory of exaltation in Israel as a priest and of the greatest glory as a married pair in the priesthood, whereby we are as God is.

You call yourself a priest (and a king) yet you know very little of the glory He has promised His priesthood. You are stuck on salvation. You have not progressed into the doctrine of exaltation. You seem incapable of seeing salvation for what it is, the first step toward exaltation. As I said in previous posts: Salvation is the promise to have our sins removed so that we can stand before God. I never equated eternal marriage in the priesthood with any aspect of salvation.

Here is the hypocrisy of your claims:

1). You claim to be saved by grace because you have faith in Jesus Christ, but you do not acknowledge that those in the LDS church are also saved by that same grace through faith.

2). You claim all believers are entitled to be kings and priests, but you do not acknowledge that those in the LDS church are also kings and priests.

Perhaps you can address these inconsistencies in the doctrine you espouse.

[James Banta]

What post are you responding to here? Definitely not mine.

(I will assume this is just some form of rhetoric device you're employing here, and not a reflection of your overall reading comprehension, especially in regards to the Bible)

You

[James Banta]

Must a person be a polygamist (At least in heart) to receive exaltation?

Not if you believe the Book of Mormon.

DH

It is based on what Richard a Mormon on Walter Martin was trying to say.. Brigham Young said that a person must be a polygamist to receive exaltation.. WE had a heated discussion on the point and he produced a copy of the entire speech I didn't have access to. He (Richard) said that it pointed out that you have to be a polygamist at least of the heart.. I was trying to find out if this is really the feelings of most LDS people.. By what I am seeing it is NOT.. So either Brigham Young was a false prophet or the LDS church is in deep apostasy.. I vote that BY is a false prophet and the LDS church is a lie conceived in the mind of Joseph Smith.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

The Melchizedek priesthood is the apostolic priesthood the same as the Apostles had. We covenant to give our lives in the service of God and Christ unto death. We speak the word of God by the power of the Holy Ghost. Our duty is to preach the gospel of salvation, to call people unto repentance, to baptize in water (actually an Aaronic priesthood duty but we can also baptize), and to lay hands upon the heads of believers for the gift of the Holy Ghost (the second baptism of the Spirit) just as the Apostles of the first church did. Beyond the doctrine of salvation, we teach of the greater glory of exaltation in Israel as a priest and of the greatest glory as a married pair in the priesthood, whereby we are as God is.

You call yourself a priest (and a king) yet you know very little of the glory He has promised His priesthood. You are stuck on salvation. You have not progressed into the doctrine of exaltation. You seem incapable of seeing salvation for what it is, the first step toward exaltation. As I said in previous posts: Salvation is the promise to have our sins removed so that we can stand before God. I never equated eternal marriage in the priesthood with any aspect of salvation.

Here is the hypocrisy of your claims:

1). You claim to be saved by grace because you have faith in Jesus Christ, but you do not acknowledge that those in the LDS church are also saved by that same grace through faith.

2). You claim all believers are entitled to be kings and priests, but you do not acknowledge that those in the LDS church are also kings and priests.

Perhaps you can address these inconsistencies in the doctrine you espouse.

I know this.. The doctrine you hold of the priesthood as the authority to act in the name of God is found nowhere in the Bible.. It is a made up authority from the mind of Joseph Smith.. Apostleship is a spiritual gift like prophecy, giving, and teaching are gifts of the spirit (1 Cor 12:28).. I noticed you didn't offer any references for your comments.. Thats ok I understand, there are none.. IHS jim

[Doctor Steuss]

I have tried to respond to other threads I was banned from one I was interested in joining.. So this is my only thread.. I will ignore your rude comments too..

James, you are just too much. Granted I have been rude (I wish I had a viable excuse, but I don't), I assume this...

I question your knowledge of the message God has given us in His word.

...this...

I question your lack of communication with God on those matters..

...and this...

Actually I think it rather presumptuous of you to think we wouldn't get that message from the Holy Spirit as we read His word..

...and this...

the lack of serious scholarship in your life

...were meant as the utmost social Christian niceties?

What a pleasure it would be to have you over for tea sometime.

As I have said I understand the meaning that The Spirit is teaching me is the passages though His power and the context in which a word is used..

That

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I know this.. The doctrine you hold of the priesthood as the authority to act in the name of God is found nowhere in the Bible.. It is a made up authority from the mind of Joseph Smith.. Apostleship is a spiritual gift like prophecy, giving, and teaching are gifts of the spirit (1 Cor 12:28).. I noticed you didn't offer any references for your comments.. Thats ok I understand, there are none.. IHS jim

So when Christ laid his hands on Peter and gave him power to bind on earth so that it would be bound in hevean that was just "made up".

When Moses called and set apart Aaron that was just "made up" too??

When scripture teaches us that no man taketh this honor (what honor do you suppose the bible is talking about?) unto himself but he that is called as was Aaron, that was just all "made up"?

[James Banta]

James, you are just too much. Granted I have been rude (I wish I had a viable excuse, but I don't), I assume this...

...this...

...and this...

...and this...

...were meant as the utmost social Christian niceties?

What a pleasure it would be to have you over for tea sometime.

That

[Doctor Steuss]

I like green tea, iced not hot... IHS jim

Sorry, there are but three kinds of tea served in my home (sans various herbals when sickness strikes), and that's the British Gourmet Monk's Blend, (Assam, Darjeeling, Nilgeri and Keemun), Bigeow's Sapphire Earl Grey, and my own blend of Darjeeling and Earl Grey.

Anything less isn't worthy of being served to a guest (and possibly, not worthy of even being called

[James Banta]

So when Christ laid his hands on Peter and gave him power to bind on earth so that it would be bound in hevean that was just "made up".

When Moses called and set apart Aaron that was just "made up" too??

When scripture teaches us that no man taketh this honor (what honor do you suppose the bible is talking about?) unto himself but he that is called as was Aaron, that was just all "made up"?

Matthew 16:15-20

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Is that the context? Where there does it say that Jesus did more that talk to Peter? He saw that Peter was in full agreement with the Father at this time. In tune enough to listen to Him speaking to him though the words of Jesus telling him that Jesus is the Christ.. Then a promise one that I touched most mormons denied. That Jesus would build Him Church and even if Hell isn't self came against Her. She would always stand. As this authority Peter was given by God I can look at the works of people (their words) and tell them they are His children and give then assurance of God's gift of life.. I can also tell people that if they continue in a Godless life they will be bound up to eternity in the Lake of Fire.. That is the authority Jesus gave Peter at this time. He never touched His to pass this power. Peter received it the way all God's children receive it.. By the recognition of the Lord of heaven and Earth Putting Him is His proper place in your life..

You said Jesus laid hands on Peter but you will have to come up with where in the context He did that.. It's a mormon extension on the passage.. A story added to the real events. Exaggeration making the passage say what they want it to say instead of what it really says.. Oh, on those lines do you know how Jesus gave his disciples the gift of the Holy Spirit? IHS jim

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Matthew 16:15-20

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Is that the context? Where there does it say that Jesus did more that talk to Peter? He saw that Peter was in full agreement with the Father at this time. In tune enough to listen to Him speaking to him though the words of Jesus telling him that Jesus is the Christ.. Then a promise one that I touched most mormons denied. That Jesus would build Him Church and even if Hell isn't self came against Her. She would always stand. As this authority Peter was given by God I can look at the works of people (their words) and tell them they are His children and give then assurance of God's gift of life.. I can also tell people that if they continue in a Godless life they will be bound up to eternity in the Lake of Fire.. That is the authority Jesus gave Peter at this time. He never touched His to pass this power. Peter received it the way all God's children receive it.. By the recognition of the Lord of heaven and Earth Putting Him is His proper place in your life..

You said Jesus laid hands on Peter but you will have to come up with where in the context He did that.. It's a mormon extension on the passage.. A story added to the real events. Exaggeration making the passage say what they want it to say instead of what it really says.. Oh, on those lines do you know how Jesus gave his disciples the gift of the Holy Spirit? IHS jim

Weather Jesus laid his hands on Peter or not is irrelevant. Jesus bestowed the keys to bind on earth that which will be bound in hevean. What were those Keys James??????? I noticed you failed to rebuttle my comment about Moses and Aaron.

[Vance]

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Notice the tense?

Where there does it say that Jesus did more that talk to Peter?

Right here.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

You said Jesus laid hands on Peter but you will have to come up with where in the context He did that..

Right here.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

[James Banta]

Weather Jesus laid his hands on Peter or not is irrelevant. Jesus bestowed the keys to bind on earth that which will be bound in hevean. What were those Keys James??????? I noticed you failed to rebuttle my comment about Moses and Aaron.

And I addressed that in my responce... IHS jim