Exaltaion requirements

[SearchDog]

I know this.. The doctrine you hold of the priesthood as the authority to act in the name of God is found nowhere in the Bible.. It is a made up authority from the mind of Joseph Smith.. Apostleship is a spiritual gift like prophecy, giving, and teaching are gifts of the spirit (1 Cor 12:28).. I noticed you didn't offer any references for your comments.. Thats ok I understand, there are none.. IHS jim

I noticed you did not address your hypocrisy. That's okay, I understand your lack of a defensible position.

[James Banta]

I noticed you did not address your hypocrisy. That's okay, I understand your lack of a defensible position.

I don't think it would be fair to ask you to go though all my post to see answers to your accusations of hypocrisy in me.. It all stems from our differences about who and what God is and what your definition of salvation is.. Mormonism holds God to be a completely different king of being than Biblical Christians. I have talked to many that don't even believe in His timelessness. By the doctrine of the LDS church God is the Father and only the Father.. That is a denial of the passages of the Bible that clearly call Jesus God (John 1:1) and the Holy Spirit God (Acts 5:4).. The nature of God is that of Spirit (John 4:24). God is three separate Persons (Matt 3:16-17) yet it is clear even from the lips of Jesus that there is ONE and only one God (Mark 12:29).. If your doctrine of God does not conform to that pattern you have created a idol in your heart and mind.. It may be based on the right names in the right historical setting but it isn't the God of Heaven and earth.. It is a man made creation, an attempt to recreate God in the likeness of man..

Then there is the power of God that I see is denied in Mormonism.. Jesus (GOD) have promises. He promised to build His Church(Matt 16:18) (No matter what the rock is) and see that She is always protected against all enemies. And His word, He promises that it would not die as long and heaven and earth continued (Matt 24:35). According to these promises God's word and His Church would be among men for all time.. Any one who claims different is denying God's promises and power to keep them..

Salvation is NOT resurrection.. I agree with you that all men will be resurrected no matter how evil, no matter of what they had believed in life about God. (1Cor 15:22) But for the best God has to offer His children His grace must be held in faith.. (Eph 2:8-9, John 3:15-16).. There is no other gift that God has explained in His word. Celestial means Heaven, terrestrial means earth, There is no reference for any such word as telestial not in the Bible, not even in the dictionary.. It is a word that was made up just like Smith made up the LDS Gods.. This tells us there there are three states of being.. One celestial with God, One terrestrial of the world in our mortal lives, and one of damnation in the Lake of Fire.. That is what the Bible speaks of.. Jesus said that in His Fathers house there are man mansions.. Those are living places with God. Jesus has prepared one of those mansions for all who believe in Him (John 14:2)..

I have addressed all these points before.. If you wish to call me a hypocrite for not going over then and over them time and again then I am a hypocrite.. IHS jim

[Vance]

I don't think it would be fair to ask you to go though all my post to see answers to your accusations of hypocrisy in me.. It all stems from our differences about who and what God is and what your definition of salvation is.. Mormonism holds God to be a completely different king of being than Biblical Christians. I have talked to many that don't even believe in His timelessness. By the doctrine of the LDS church God is the Father and only the Father.. That is a denial of the passages of the Bible that clearly call Jesus God (John 1:1) and the Holy Spirit God (Acts 5:4).. The nature of God is that of Spirit (John 4:24). God is three separate Persons (Matt 3:16-17) yet it is clear even from the lips of Jesus that there is ONE and only one God (Mark 12:29).. If your doctrine of God does not conform to that pattern you have created a idol in your heart and mind.. It may be based on the right names in the right historical setting but it isn't the God of Heaven and earth.. It is a man made creation, an attempt to recreate God in the likeness of man..

Then there is the power of God that I see is denied in Mormonism.. Jesus (GOD) have promises. He promised to build His Church(Matt 16:18) (No matter what the rock is) and see that She is always protected against all enemies. And His word, He promises that it would not die as long and heaven and earth continued (Matt 24:35). According to these promises God's word and His Church would be among men for all time.. Any one who claims different is denying God's promises and power to keep them..

Salvation is NOT resurrection.. I agree with you that all men will be resurrected no matter how evil, no matter of what they had believed in life about God. (1Cor 15:22) But for the best God has to offer His children His grace must be held in faith.. (Eph 2:8-9, John 3:15-16).. There is no other gift that God has explained in His word. Celestial means Heaven, terrestrial means earth, There is no reference for any such word as telestial not in the Bible, not even in the dictionary.. It is a word that was made up just like Smith made up the LDS Gods.. This tells us there there are three states of being.. One celestial with God, One terrestrial of the world in our mortal lives, and one of damnation in the Lake of Fire.. That is what the Bible speaks of.. Jesus said that in His Fathers house there are man mansions.. Those are living places with God. Jesus has prepared one of those mansions for all who believe in Him (John 14:2)..

I have addressed all these points before.. If you wish to call me a hypocrite for not going over then and over them time and again then I am a hypocrite.. IHS jim

Oh great! Another clueless Anti-Mormon comes here to tell us what we really believe.

[kamenraider]

It is based on what Richard a Mormon on Walter Martin was trying to say.. Brigham Young said that a person must be a polygamist to receive exaltation.. WE had a heated discussion on the point and he produced a copy of the entire speech I didn't have access to. He (Richard) said that it pointed out that you have to be a polygamist at least of the heart.. I was trying to find out if this is really the feelings of most LDS people.. By what I am seeing it is NOT.. So either Brigham Young was a false prophet or the LDS church is in deep apostasy.. I vote that BY is a false prophet and the LDS church is a lie conceived in the mind of Joseph Smith.. IHS jim

You can see that over 27% of those who responded to your poll voted "Yes", so I don't see how you can conclude that the LDS Church is in "deep apostasy".

Only 49% of Evangelical Christians believe that the devil is a real living being and 57% believe that other religions can lead to eternal life, according to the U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, so does that mean that your church is in deep apostasy?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And I addressed that in my responce... IHS jim

Ok.

[SearchDog]

I don't think it would be fair to ask you to go though all my post to see answers to your accusations of hypocrisy in me.. It all stems from our differences about who and what God is and what your definition of salvation is.. Mormonism holds God to be a completely different king of being than Biblical Christians. I have talked to many that don't even believe in His timelessness. By the doctrine of the LDS church God is the Father and only the Father.. That is a denial of the passages of the Bible that clearly call Jesus God (John 1:1) and the Holy Spirit God (Acts 5:4).. The nature of God is that of Spirit (John 4:24). God is three separate Persons (Matt 3:16-17) yet it is clear even from the lips of Jesus that there is ONE and only one God (Mark 12:29).. If your doctrine of God does not conform to that pattern you have created a idol in your heart and mind.. It may be based on the right names in the right historical setting but it isn't the God of Heaven and earth.. It is a man made creation, an attempt to recreate God in the likeness of man..

Then there is the power of God that I see is denied in Mormonism.. Jesus (GOD) have promises. He promised to build His Church(Matt 16:18) (No matter what the rock is) and see that She is always protected against all enemies. And His word, He promises that it would not die as long and heaven and earth continued (Matt 24:35). According to these promises God's word and His Church would be among men for all time.. Any one who claims different is denying God's promises and power to keep them..

Salvation is NOT resurrection.. I agree with you that all men will be resurrected no matter how evil, no matter of what they had believed in life about God. (1Cor 15:22) But for the best God has to offer His children His grace must be held in faith.. (Eph 2:8-9, John 3:15-16).. There is no other gift that God has explained in His word. Celestial means Heaven, terrestrial means earth, There is no reference for any such word as telestial not in the Bible, not even in the dictionary.. It is a word that was made up just like Smith made up the LDS Gods.. This tells us there there are three states of being.. One celestial with God, One terrestrial of the world in our mortal lives, and one of damnation in the Lake of Fire.. That is what the Bible speaks of.. Jesus said that in His Fathers house there are man mansions.. Those are living places with God. Jesus has prepared one of those mansions for all who believe in Him (John 14:2)..

I have addressed all these points before.. If you wish to call me a hypocrite for not going over then and over them time and again then I am a hypocrite.. IHS jim

Oh, James, you have been around a long time. I have read a lot of the CARM doctrine which you espouse to without addressing the many errors. Don

[James Banta]

Notice the tense?

Right here.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Right here.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

To ordain is as much as to give orders to as it is to confer ministerial authority to.. The context of this passage is clear to me Jesus ordered the disciples to bring forth fruit.. I am sure you disagree. but the bring for fruit part of this tell me the amount of authority you can claim by this verse.. Mission work.. That is all.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Oh great! Another clueless Anti-Mormon comes here to tell us what we really believe.

From what I have seen here and in other posting boards your doctrines are so wide spread across the board that mormons argue with mormons of basic doctrines like the nature of God.. Hardly a minor point. One man that called himself a "good" mormon believes that the person of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit , and all other persons who have been exalted are part of the one true God.. Some of you believe that following the present prophet is all you need to do, while others believe that all the men who have held that office gave truth for today. Still others deny them completely until after the pray and receive a testimony of their message.. I look out and see well over one hundred mormon splinter groups all that believe they are the only real true church and all the others have fallen into apostasy.. Some one better start telling you what you believe because as a people you have no idea.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

You can see that over 27% of those who responded to your poll voted "Yes", so I don't see how you can conclude that the LDS Church is in "deep apostasy".

Only 49% of Evangelical Christians believe that the devil is a real living being and 57% believe that other religions can lead to eternal life, according to the U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, so does that mean that your church is in deep apostasy?

You know so little about the Christian churches around you.. Each one is a separate autonomous church with not outside ecclesiastic control. No one can just come a few time talk to the pastor and join the church.. Each must agree to the doctrine of the Bible 100%, since we hold it to be God's inerrant word to man. All of it, the triune God, the angelic host (which include the existence of Satan). The virgin birth, the total depravity of man, salvation by grace through faith plus nothing. This would mean that 100% of our members believe that eternal live is only in Jesus not a religion. 100% believe the devil is real, and that the Church has always existed with no total apostasy ever taking place.. If your membership is this out of touch with the doctrines your standard works say is the truth them MORMONISM IS DEEP IN APOSTASY.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

You can see that over 27% of those who responded to your poll voted "Yes", so I don't see how you can conclude that the LDS Church is in "deep apostasy".

Only 49% of Evangelical Christians believe that the devil is a real living being and 57% believe that other religions can lead to eternal life, according to the U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, so does that mean that your church is in deep apostasy?

Vance asked the same thing look for your answer posted to him.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Oh, James, you have been around a long time. I have read a lot of the CARM doctrine which you espouse to without addressing the many errors. Don

[Flyonthewall]

1. If I build a statue in my backyard and call it Jesus and pray to it and put my hope for salvation in it inspite what the Bible teaches I can't be saved.. This is what Mormonism has done.. The have built their own Jesus made Him a created being of still another created being. This Jesus of Mormonism is not the Mighty God the everlasting Father. This Jesus is not the word of God, He was not always with God and he is NOT The eternal God the creator of ALL things.. He is a idol you have built in the backyard of your hearts that you bow down to.. So the answer is NO..

You state we have created a different person, which is not true. We believe in the same Jesus everyone else does, we just attributed different things to Him.

If I were describe my father, I would describe him as a hard-nosed, strict, and argumentative person. If others were to describe him, they would say he was a very social, out-going and happy person. We are not talking about two different people. We are talking about the same person, just different attributes of him. It is the same thing with Jesus. You interpret scripture one way and say Jesus is "this". We interpret scripture, and say Jesus is "that". You claim the Jesus we profess is a different person. That is, quite frankly, juvenile in the extreme.

2. As long as the LDS people profess an idol of Joseph Smith's making NO, They can not share in the believers priesthood..

Despite your attempts to deny us Jesus, we stand true to Jesus, and share in His priesthood.

I still get the impression as you talk to me that you believe I hold that priesthood is some power to act in God's name.. I do NOT hold that cultic idea at all.. That power is reserved for the heirs of the Household of God..His children.. There are those that receive Jesus these are given power to become God's children not everyone due to some superstition tat we were all his children in heaven before coming into mortality.. IHS jim

The priesthood has always been the authority given to man to officiate in rites and ordinances of God. Priesthood is also the power to bind on earth as well as heaven. It's all right there in the scriptures.

Are you saying the priesthood is merely the "power" to become God's children? That doesn't pan out in the scriptures now does it?

You are doing exactly as was told Joseph Smith, you draw near with your lips but deny the power thereof.

[Vance]

To ordain is as much as to give orders to as it is to confer ministerial authority to.. The context of this passage is clear to me Jesus ordered the disciples to bring forth fruit.. I am sure you disagree. but the bring for fruit part of this tell me the amount of authority you can claim by this verse.. Mission work.. That is all.. IHS jim

Or it could mean what tradition tells us it means. To ordain is to give authority by the laying on of hands. After all that is the process that has been used through out the centuries.

[Vance]

From what I have seen here and in other posting boards your doctrines are so wide spread across the board that mormons argue with mormons of basic doctrines like the nature of God.. Hardly a minor point. One man that called himself a "good" mormon believes that the person of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit , and all other persons who have been exalted are part of the one true God.. Some of you believe that following the present prophet is all you need to do, while others believe that all the men who have held that office gave truth for today. Still others deny them completely until after the pray and receive a testimony of their message.. I look out and see well over one hundred mormon splinter groups all that believe they are the only real true church and all the others have fallen into apostasy.. Some one better start telling you what you believe because as a people you have no idea.. IHS jim

If Mormon doctrine is as confusing as you say, then why do you think that you are enough of an authority to tell us what we believe?

Oh right, I get it, those anti-mormon sites that you feed from are the real experts on Mormonism!

NOT!!!

[SearchDog]

1. If I build a statue in my backyard and call it Jesus and pray to it and put my hope for salvation in it inspite what the Bible teaches I can't be saved.. This is what Mormonism has done.. The have built their own Jesus made Him a created being of still another created being. This Jesus of Mormonism is not the Mighty God the everlasting Father. This Jesus is not the word of God, He was not always with God and he is NOT The eternal God the creator of ALL things.. He is a idol you have built in the backyard of your hearts that you bow down to.. So the answer is NO..

2. As long as the LDS people profess an idol of Joseph Smith's making NO, They can not share in the believers priesthood..

I still get the impression as you talk to me that you believe I hold that priesthood is some power to act in God's name.. I do NOT hold that cultic idea at all.. That power is reserved for the heirs of the Household of God..His children.. There are those that receive Jesus these are given power to become God's children not everyone due to some superstition tat we were all his children in heaven before coming into mortality.. IHS jim

That

[James Banta]

You state we have created a different person, which is not true. We believe in the same Jesus everyone else does, we just attributed different things to Him.

If I were describe my father, I would describe him as a hard-nosed, strict, and argumentative person. If others were to describe him, they would say he was a very social, out-going and happy person. We are not talking about two different people. We are talking about the same person, just different attributes of him. It is the same thing with Jesus. You interpret scripture one way and say Jesus is "this". We interpret scripture, and say Jesus is "that". You claim the Jesus we profess is a different person. That is, quite frankly, juvenile in the extreme.

Despite your attempts to deny us Jesus, we stand true to Jesus, and share in His priesthood.

The priesthood has always been the authority given to man to officiate in rites and ordinances of God. Priesthood is also the power to bind on earth as well as heaven. It's all right there in the scriptures.

Are you saying the priesthood is merely the "power" to become God's children? That doesn't pan out in the scriptures now does it?

You are doing exactly as was told Joseph Smith, you draw near with your lips but deny the power thereof.

Really? the Jesus Christians believe in is the eternal God. A Person who has always been God who have never been anything but God.. He was never created never formed. He is the source of all things and not just a cog on the wheel, not just a voice in the choir among other gods but the only God that has ever existed, or will ever exist.. That isn't the same Being as the LDS church sees in Jesus..

Is that the Person you see Jesus as being, or is the LDS Jesus a literal spirit child of the Father? Or is He a creation as the LDS church believes Lucifer, as well as all the spirits of mankind are.. Does not the LDS church teach that Jesus is our spiritual older brother, and Lucifer His brother. Isn't Lucifer also taught to be our older brother? Didn't we begin our eternal progression in that first estate? Then Jesus had a beginning as a child of God there in the preexistence.. At the time of His spiritual birth there in the pre-existence was he God? Did He become a God after that point in time? That is contradictory to the word He gave us through the Prophet Isaiah "Before me no God was formed neither will there be after me" (Isaiah 43:10)

Anything but acknowledging Jesus as God the God that has always existed, the God who created ALL things (that includes Lucifer and the spirits of all men) then you are worshiping some other god other than the true and living God revealed in the Bible..

Priesthood has always been a sacrifical office.. I have asked many a LDS defender to point to one instance in all the Bible where priesthood is named as a power to act in God's name.. I have asked them to show me one instance of priesthood being used in any context of scripture that is not speaking of sacrifice.. Priesthood it always tied to sacrifice and nothing else.. Authority comes from being an heir to the Kingdom of God, to be His child.. That is a huge authority to speck as an heir and not a servant.. No text in the Bible tells us that priesthood was given to the disciples. No priesthood is mentioned in any of the leadership position of the Church.. Jesus is the one and only High Priest and all believers (both male and female) are kings and priests unto God..

The Bible teaches that priesthood is the duty given to Priests to stand between men and God with blood. To make an offering for sin.. That was Aaron's job, that is also the duty of Jesus.. As priests under their High Priestly position we offer the sacrifice of the praise or our hearts for the gift of life Jesus has purchased for us in His own blood.. Priesthood is NOT authority for anything but sacrifice. It has nothing to do with binding on earth and in heaven..

You say that I deny the power of God by saying that He has given His children all the authority and power of His kingdom? How can you say something so contradictory? I can't understand how I deny authority but hold onto the authority of the children of God that He has given to them? Just because I don't believe that priesthood is what you have always been taught it is doesn't mean I deny the power of God..

Oh and I like that you were willing to admit that Smith said those words and didn't try to put them into Jesus' mouth.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Or it could mean what tradition tells us it means. To ordain is to give authority by the laying on of hands. After all that is the process that has been used through out the centuries.

Mormon tradition says that. It is not part of the "ordination" of Aaron.. Laying on of hands is not an essential part of any part of the Church.. Not to be invested with power, not to receive gifts, including the gift of the Holy Spirit.. None of the "traditional" LDS ideas about these "laying on of hands" have any support for being required in the Bible.. I can show instances in the Bible where the Holy Spirit came upon people without being touched at all. I can show that priesthood is NOT an office of authority.. I can show where men were accepted into Paradise with Jesus without the need for baptism or the laying on of hands.. I can show that when the laying on of hands was used that no words were offered to bestow the Holy Spirit onto any believer.. It just isn't the LDS formula for the church at all... IHS jim

[James Banta]

If Mormon doctrine is as confusing as you say, then why do you think that you are enough of an authority to tell us what we believe?

Oh right, I get it, those anti-mormon sites that you feed from are the real experts on Mormonism!

NOT!!!

Because I was one of you for a very long time and from what I could see about the only one actually paying attention in classes.. But still some of the churches doctrines are still confusing.. So much so that people argue about them internally weekly.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

That

[Doctor Steuss]

[Deleted... almost allowed myself to get sucked back in. Shame on me.]

[Vance]

Mormon tradition says that.

is it the only one? I think not.

It is not part of the "ordination" of Aaron..

Were you an eye witness?

Laying on of hands is not an essential part of any part of the Church..

Apparently it was a very important part of the original Christian Church.

Heb. 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

But with the apostasy and all, the understanding of that doctrine was lost.

Not to be invested with power, not to receive gifts, including the gift of the Holy Spirit.. None of the "traditional" LDS ideas about these "laying on of hands" have any support for being required in the Bible..

Right.

Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles

[Flyonthewall]

Really? the Jesus Christians believe in is the eternal God. A Person who has always been God who have never been anything but God.. He was never created never formed. He is the source of all things and not just a cog on the wheel, not just a voice in the choir among other gods but the only God that has ever existed, or will ever exist.. That isn't the same Being as the LDS church sees in Jesus..

This is the same Jesus. We believe Jesus was God from the begining, co-eternal with the Father. Jesus is not just a "cog on a wheel", or "just a voice in the choir" as you describe, but the saviour of all mankind, the only Begotten of the Father. You are mistaken when you say that Jesus is the only God that ever existed, because He has always maintained that He is not the Father, and the Father is His God...or are you saying Jesus was wrong when He said that?

Is that the Person you see Jesus as being, or is the LDS Jesus a literal spirit child of the Father? Or is He a creation as the LDS church believes Lucifer, as well as all the spirits of mankind are.. Does not the LDS church teach that Jesus is our spiritual older brother, and Lucifer His brother. Isn't Lucifer also taught to be our older brother? Didn't we begin our eternal progression in that first estate? Then Jesus had a beginning as a child of God there in the preexistence.. At the time of His spiritual birth there in the pre-existence was he God? Did He become a God after that point in time? That is contradictory to the word He gave us through the Prophet Isaiah "Before me no God was formed neither will there be after me" (Isaiah 43:10)

Jesus is not a "creation" but He is the Son of God. Is that a hard concept for you? You have not been able to wrap your mind around the concept of our spirits being the offspring of God the father, but being without a beginning or end. Eternity is a difficult concept for anybody, you just seem to have an extra hard time with it.

Anything but acknowledging Jesus as God the God that has always existed, the God who created ALL things (that includes Lucifer and the spirits of all men) then you are worshiping some other god other than the true and living God revealed in the Bible..

Then you need to read the Bible again. Jesus went to great lengths to differentiate Himself from God the Father, while maintanint their one-ness. Do you deny Jesus has a God? He says it right in the Bible. It sure sounds like you are rejecting the bible and substituting your own doctrine.

Priesthood has always been a sacrifical office.. I have asked many a LDS defender to point to one instance in all the Bible where priesthood is named as a power to act in God's name.. I have asked them to show me one instance of priesthood being used in any context of scripture that is not speaking of sacrifice.. Priesthood it always tied to sacrifice and nothing else.. Authority comes from being an heir to the Kingdom of God, to be His child.. That is a huge authority to speck as an heir and not a servant.. No text in the Bible tells us that priesthood was given to the disciples. No priesthood is mentioned in any of the leadership position of the Church.. Jesus is the one and only High Priest and all believers (both male and female) are kings and priests unto God..

Did not God institute the law of sacrifice? Did not God grant only those with the priesthood to officiate in the ordinances He set forth? Authority to perform these ordinances are tied to the priesthood, not the general population. You say the priesthood was only tied to sacrifice, but there was more to it than that. The Levites did not have the same duties as the sons of Aaron. Tithing is specifically mentioned as a duty of the priesthood.

Jesus gave the apostles power to bind on earth and in heaven...that is the priesthood. It was not the Levitical or Aaronic priesthood that Jesus had, but the priesthood after the order of Melchisedec. Melchisedec preceeded the Levitical priesthood as he lived in the time of Abraham(before the Law of Moses), so this was nothing new. It was the Melchisedec priesthood that was bestowed upon the apostles. The Levitical priesthood was the prepatory priesthood to officiate in the prepatory ordinances that were the school teacher of Christ. There was a change in priesthood to the higher priesthood, and a change in the law to a higher law.

No where in the scriptures does it say that Jesus is the one and only High Priest as there are several identified in the scriptures.

The Bible teaches that priesthood is the duty given to Priests to stand between men and God with blood. To make an offering for sin.. That was Aaron's job, that is also the duty of Jesus.. As priests under their High Priestly position we offer the sacrifice of the praise or our hearts for the gift of life Jesus has purchased for us in His own blood.. Priesthood is NOT authority for anything but sacrifice. It has nothing to do with binding on earth and in heaven..

Still denying the power of the priesthood.

From your own words, the priesthood is the duty to stand between men and God, to act in the place of God in His absence. Jesus was the final sacrifice, so we do not continue in the sacrifice of animals, but with the sacrifice of our own hearts. Jesus bestowed the keys to the kingdom on the apostles. The keys lie within the priesthood - the authority to officiate, to stand between God and man in the ordinances set forth.

You say that I deny the power of God by saying that He has given His children all the authority and power of His kingdom? How can you say something so contradictory? I can't understand how I deny authority but hold onto the authority of the children of God that He has given to them? Just because I don't believe that priesthood is what you have always been taught it is doesn't mean I deny the power of God..

You do not understand what the priesthood is. You think that the priesthood is simply the authority to perform animal sacrifice, and now that animals are no longer sacrificed, simple belief gives us the power and authority to make our own sacrifices of the heart. The priesthood is much more than animal sacrifice, but the power and authority to act in the name of God in His absence, to officiate in His ordinances and to administer His church. I did not say you denied God, but His power and authority given in the priesthood.

Oh and I like that you were willing to admit that Smith said those words and didn't try to put them into Jesus' mouth.. IHS jim

I did not say they were Joseph's words, but they are words that were given to him...by Jesus Christ.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You do not understand what the priesthood is.

This much seems to be the case.

James, why were only the tribe of Levi to officiate in the ordinances of the day? Why was it called the "Levitical priesthood"?

Heb. 7: 11

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

James,

What are these 2 priesthoods spoken of about here in Hebrews? We have the Melchisedec and we have the Levitical or the priesthood after the order of Aaron. What are those?

[SearchDog]

You made some flat denials here.. You seem to deny that Jesus is the first born spirit Child of the Father in the pre-existence? Ok if that is no longer LDS doctrine I guess I will have to call up the mission and have some of your people come in and tell me what the church has changed Jesus into now.. This is what I was taught all the time I was a member of the LDS church.. I am not saying you are trying to pull a fast one here.. I just didn't know that the church has changed this much.. Unless it was just you and you aren't accepting the doctrines of the pre-existence..

I am not thinking of holding onto a blind guide.. I will put my hand in the Hand of Jesus and trust ONLY Him.. IHS jim

I didn't even mention the pre-existence in my last post, but if that is your stumbling block than I will be happy to discuss it.

Perhaps you can start by answering this question:

1). How can something which is infinite (the spirit) have its beginning in something which is finite (the body)?

In other words, your doctrine in which the spirit is created in the womb of a human mother gives the spirit a start date associated with the need to have a mortal body.

Joseph Smith's revelations from God made it clear that spirits are eternal, that they existed before the creation of the earth, and that all who were ever to live on the earth were part of a grand council in heaven where God explained His plan that we would inhabit the earth, that we would do so in a fallen state being placed at risk by temptation, and that He would provide a Savior who He then introduced as His son Jesus (our spirit brother) who would make the Atonement that would allow us to return to God our Father after our mortal trial on earth.

The prophets of God in the LDS church since Joseph Smith have made it known through revelation from God that upon hearing the word of God at this council in heaven Lucifer and His followers rebelled and were cast out but we having accepted this Plan became the spirit children of God; He gave us spirit bodies which were gender specific and we have been descending from heaven (willingly leaving the presence of God) in order to take up human form in His creation so that we might be tested in a world fraught with dangers where our choices made in a free will could bring us down unto eternal destruction.

Furthermore, our spirits did not come into existence at the time we accepted the word of God. Joseph made it clear that we were "intellegences" before becoming the spirit children of God.

Now if you believe that your understanding can over take that which has been spoken by prophets, please share your intelligence.

[James Banta]

is it the only one? I think not.

Were you an eye witness?

Apparently it was a very important part of the original Christian Church.

Heb. 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

But with the apostasy and all, the understanding of that doctrine was lost.

Right.

Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles