Bruce Hafen's Talk at Evergreen Conference

[talisyn]

Let me guess, if you sneer and they are offended, it's their fault, right?

Well yes. What did BY say...some thing about if you take offense where none was intended you're a fool, but if you take offense where it was intended you're a greater fool

[Bunny]

Given all of the above, I don't believe I'll ever be able to accept that a same-sex relationship would be 'sanctioned' by the God I worship. However... I know you. I see your heart and, even if I disagree with you, I know enough to know that you also believe that pursuing this type of relationship will ultimately lead to the greatest happiness. I see the love that you and your husband have for each other, and believe it's genuine. I would hope that, if our roles were reversed, you'd treat my ability to choose for myself with the same dignity and respect that I'd hope from you. And so, even though I don't agree with your decisions to embrace your identity as a gay man, I support and love you--and will even love and support your husband. And perhaps, as we move through life, we'll grow in our understanding and love for one another.

The funny thing is, Darin, I think this is EXACTLY what thousands of LDS people are trying to say, unless you mean by "support and love" that I have to support and love the "thing" (for want of a better word; I realize its offensiveness, so please forgive me) that I genuinely feel is incapable of leading you to eternal happiness. That we can support and love you and your partner as our brothers and friends and appreciate all of your goodness and kindnesses and individual gifts, I think we do that. Being a woman in what appears to be a male-centric church, I think I understand a little about feeling the victim, and I can't help but wonder if that sense of victimhood clouds your perception of how active LDS people treat you. I am certainly aware that many people, whether religious or not, deal awkwardly and ignorantly with ANYONE who is different from them. However, I can't help but think that Hafen's talk, in effect, was saying what you say you WANTED to hear, but when it was heard, it really wasn't what you wanted. Reminds of that scene from "Tootsie," where the Jessical Lange character tells Tootsie what she wants a man to say to her, and then later, when Dustin Hoffman's male character says those EXACT SAME WORDS to her, she throws the drink in his face.

[Daniel Peterson]

What about your malevolent stalker?

Nope. Not even him. For one thing, he's not all that significant. A gnat. An irritation. Ridiculous. A bizarre case of hostile obsession. A ham actor on a very small stage before a tiny but very easy audience. Nothing more.

I do, I admit, sometimes get a kick out of making fun of him these days. Not very Christian, perhaps, but definitely amusing.

For some reason, now that you've mentioned my Malevolent Stalker, I'm reminded of the little poem by James Thomson:

ONCE in a saintly passion

I cried with desperate grief,

"O Lord, my heart is black with guile,

Of sinners I am chief."

Then stooped my guardian angel

And whispered from behind,

"Vanity, my little man,

You're nothing of the kind."

[Bunny]

Like this blogger, I am also so tired of hearing that my "homosexual attractions" are merely a matter of willpower to "just say no" to a sex act, as if that is all sexual orientation is all about. Yes, celibacy should be possible for any of us, and for those that choose to make that a guiding benchmark of their lives, so be it. In my view, life is much richer--a more abundant experience--because of the lessons we learn in opening ourselves up to the miraculous, challenging, and humbling possibilities that come from loving, serving, sacrificing for and being loved by the spouse with whom we choose to share our lives, loves, challenges, and heartaches.

Darin, there is so much that is interesting to me in your response, but I've been thinking in particular about the "loving, serving, sacrificing for and being loved by" statement. Obviously, this is what we all want, and yet, so many people, gay and straight, never have that spousal/life-partner experience. Is it an acceptable alternative, do you think, for a man or woman with same-sex attraction, to be like any other person who has no spouse in life, and learn other ways to "love, serve, sacrifice for, and be loved by" people other than a spouse or life partner? I can't imagine that I am unique in this aspect, when I say that although my life with my husband gives me the greatest opportunity on a daily basis to experience the love-serve-sacrifice stuff, I certainly have other close relationships with family members and longtime girlfriends (in the platonic sense, thank you) in which I have had the opportunity to have similar experiences. Life is richer, in general, when we open up our hearts and hands to more than just our spouse and children. I just wonder what would happen if a man or woman with same-sex attraction would choose, instead of a traditional spousal-type familial relationship, instead to follow the Gospel principles and humbly let God take control? What amazing "loving, serving, sacrificing for and being loved by" experiences might exist for that person? Perhaps that person may even experience, better than those of us with a spouse or life partner, more of the love that Christ experiences for each of us.

What say you?

[Glenn101]

I never said anything about a "gay gene." I said it's obvious Elder Hafen has not sat down to review the issue completely. There are a number of studies both recently and decades back which confirm that homosexuality may have a genetic link. They have never been repudiated. Neither side of the argument has been able to conclusively substantiate their respective positions, yet you make it seem as if they have.

Until you can show me, scientifically, 100%, that the etiology of homosexuality stems from NOTHING more than "a number of complex biasing factors..." then I'll consider this little rant of yours moot.

CFR on that.

While not "repudiated" several large studies of identical twins are revealing, since identical twins have identical genes, if one twin has SSA and that attraction is genetic, it would follow that the other twin would also have SSA. But every twin study that I am aware of show that SSA in both of a set of identical twins is low, although higher than the normal population from which the sample was drawn. Link

Glenn

[NEDRA]

While it is true that we all have the decision whether or not to act on our desires, I was very compelled by the letter linked to in the third post of this thread. The author of the letter, a distraught father, very eloquently said the following, which which I wholeheartedly agree:

As the Church "progresses" on this issue, what we are hearing more and more from Priesthood leaders today is the idea that our son is acceptable so long as he practices life-long chastity. That is, of course, actually called celibacy, and while it's a convenient idea to advance, in practice it is virtually impossible to live. The distinction between chastity and celibacy seems always to be overlooked by Church leaders. You may recall that in his somewhat recent newspaper interview in California, President Hinkley compared the plight of homosexuals to that of the single sisters in the Church. To paraphrase, he said that the Church doesn't ask homosexuals to do anything it doesn't also ask of its other single adult members - to live chaste lives. But this simply isn't true. As a former bishop I have firsthand experience. We openly love and support our single brothers and sisters. We give them important callings - especially with out youth and children. We urge them to date, to flirt, to get crushes, to fall in love, to marry. We sponsor Ward and Stake activities and dances to get them together to accomplish this. We ask them to be chaste - until they find someone to share their life and intimacy with. We go out of our way to give them something of immeasurable value in the struggle to keep the law of chastity - hope - hope that no matter how difficult this emotional and physical loneliness is, it is temporary. For those with the least control over their situation, our single sisters, we give special encouragement and hope that they will find love, emotional intimacy and fulfillment in this life - and if not, certainly in the next.

We do not knowingly give homosexuals important callings - especially not with our youth or children who would be at risk of being infected and recruited. We forbid them ever to flirt, to date, to get crushes, to fall in love, to have a legally-recognized monogamous relationship. The image of a Tri-Stake Gay and Lesbian Gold-and-Green Ball is amusing. We ask them to be chaste - forever. No hope at all. The question of sexual intimacy aside - can you imagine having being denied the ability to become attracted to, flirt with, get a crush on, hold hands with, steal a kiss from, or fall in love with you wife? With all trace of romantic love and emotional intimacy denied you, with what would you fill the void to hold at bay a life of loneliness, emptiness, and despair?

We do have at least one historic example to look to. The Catholic Church has attempted to enforce celibacy on its clergy throughout the ages with success at some level (although we will never know what level). With what did they replace the emotional void? They had the love and adulation of the church membership, and authority and power. They were, in fact, the Bishops, Stake Presidents, and General Authorities. They were held next to deity - and their record is less than stellar. Imagine the celibacy success rate of a group defined by a loathsome and abominable "condition."

Imagine also, for a moment, if you were to stand up in front of the freshman class at BYU and announce that everyone present was being given a special calling to live a celibate life from then on. How many do you think would really be able to do it? How many empty and guilty lives and suicides would result? The Church has never taught the principle of celibacy. As a parent, I don't have the slightest idea how to begin teaching it. There are no manuals, no courses, no "For the Strength of Celibate Youth" cards to carry. There are no Priesthood, Relief Society, Sunday School, or Primary lessons on celibacy. On the other hand, following the teachings of the Church, we have raised our children in a home filled with open love, intimacy, loyalty and commitment between a couple. Our children know Carlie and I adore each other, and they want and need the same thing in their lives.

[Hamba Tuhan]

The question of sexual intimacy aside - can you imagine having being denied the ability to become attracted to, flirt with, get a crush on, hold hands with, steal a kiss from, or fall in love with you wife? With all trace of romantic love and emotional intimacy denied you, with what would you fill the void to hold at bay a life of loneliness, emptiness, and despair?

As a totally chaste single member of the Church, I resent this depiction of my existence as 'a life of loneliness, emptiness, and despair.' My life is full and rewarding. It includes love for people so deep that I can't describe it and spiritual 'intimacy' with a number of ward and family members. I have nothing but gratitude for my existence. And that's not because my life has even a trace of flirting, holding hands, kiss stealing, or anything else of the sort in it, and that has been the case for a long, long time. I don't know if my situation in future will change...at least in this life. Considering where I live, it may well not. That means that I have become completely reconciled to a life of 'celibacy.' This 'distraught father' may have crafted an eloquent emotional appeal, but that does not make him an expert on living 'alone.' I am. My relationship with Christ is worth 'being chaste forever' and then some. To pretend that chastity is some kind of burden is to do others a grave disservice.

[NEDRA]

Hamba Tuhan:

I think the point is that a gay or lesbian person is denied the ability to express any kind of sexuality-- even flirting, holding hands, etc. You may personally not feel attraction to the woman with whom you surround yourself with, but you chose to put yoursel in that situation, and no-one is saying your salvation is in jeopardy if you fall in love and marry one of them.

Heterosexual people are single for lots of reasos, but for them there's always hope and encouragement to meet and mate with someone they want to be with.

I was also single until past forty. I didn't experience it as a blissful, service-saturated time the way you did.

[Hamba Tuhan]

There is 'hope and encouragement to meet and mate with someone they want to be with' for anyone who is willing to place her/his complete trust in Christ and wait upon Him. What is tragic to me is when people grow impatient enough to throw away the only hope any of us have. I'm reminded of a middle-aged woman whom I taught as a missionary. She'd never been married but ached to enjoy the companionship of a good husband, a longing only intensified by her embrace of the doctrines of the Restoration. A couple of years after her conversion, she received her patriarchal blessing. In it she was promised that she would be blessed with an eternal marriage. Thrilled with and comforted by this 'hope and encouragement,' she shared her feelings with some of the sisters in her ward whom she considered her close friends. She was shocked at the cynicism with which they all replied: 'Oh sure, though probably in the next life.'

She simply couldn't understand why anyone would see such an outcome as bad. Whether in this life or in the next, it was all the same to her. Such was her complete trust in the Saviour.

[NEDRA]

There is 'hope and encouragement to meet and mate with someone they want to be with' for anyone who is willing to place her/his complete trust in Christ and wait upon Him. What is tragic to me is when people grow impatient enough to throw away the only hope any of us have. I'm reminded of a middle-aged woman whom I taught as a missionary. She'd never been married but ached to enjoy the companionship of a good husband, a longing only intensified by her embrace of the doctrines of the Restoration. A couple of years after her conversion, she received her patriarchal blessing. In it she was promised that she would be blessed with an eternal marriage. Thrilled with and comforted by this 'hope and encouragement,' she shared her feelings with some of the sisters in her ward whom she considered her close friends. She was shocked at the cynicism with which they all replied: 'Oh sure, though probably in the next life.'

She simply couldn't understand why anyone would see such an outcome as bad. Whether in this life or in the next, it was all the same to her. Such was her complete trust in the Saviour.

Did you misunderstand me, Hamba Tuban? It is clear that LDS theology claims that heterosexual singles who remain true to the gospel have the hope to marry someone of their choosing in the next life.

Did you not get my point that gays never get that hope? According to the Church (reiterated most recently here by Elder Hafen), homosexual members who are faithful will have desires towards the opposite sex (I.e., "turn straight" in the next life.) in other words, neither in this life or the next will they ever get the desire of their heart as they now know it in morality. After yearning for steak for 70 years, the wake up on Resurrection morning to an all- you can eat smorgasbord of chopped liver. Their neighbors, on the other hand, have wanted chopped liver all along.

[mercyngrace]

Did you misunderstand me, Hamba Tuban? It is clear that LDS theology claims that heterosexual singles who remain true to the gospel have the hope to marry someone of their choosing in the next life.

Did you not get my point that gays never get that hope? According to the Church (reiterated most recently here by Elder Hafen), homosexual members who are faithful will have desires towards the opposite sex (I.e., "turn straight" in the next life.) in other words, neither in this life or the next will they ever get the desire of their heart as they now know it in morality. After yearning for steak for 70 years, the wake up on Resurrection morning to an all- you can eat smorgasbord of chopped liver. Their neighbors, on the other hand, have wanted chopped liver all along.

Nedra,

What they are promised is a fulfilling partnership that will bring them joy. Isn't that what they really want?

[Hamba Tuhan]

Did you misunderstand me, Hamba Tuban? ... n other words, neither in this life or the next will they ever get the desire of their heart as they now know it in morality. After yearning for steak for 70 years, the wake up on Resurrection morning to an all- you can eat smorgasbord of chopped liver. Their neighbors, on the other hand, have wanted chopped liver all along.

I guess I did misunderstand you. I love how the Lord has radically altered my core nature to better reflect His will for me, a process that is ongoing, and I look forward to being perfected in Him, when all my desires will be for that which will bring me and others the greatest happiness and fulfilment. Clearly I've falsely assumed that others felt the same way. My apologies.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Then I'd like to see it, as there is also mountainous evidence regarding the vociferous promiscuity, psychological dysfunction, and tempestuous, emotionally fragile relationships the vast majority of homosexuals have been engaging in for as long as they've been studied and observed.

Wickedness never was happiness, and retreating into fantasy never was a solution to the problems of mortality.

So does anybody have a study that shows "there's an abundance of evidence that gays and lesbians are capable of forming healthy, stable, and mutual relationships with each othertheres is abudant evidence that homosexuals"?

[Nofear]

So does anybody have a study that shows "there's an abundance of evidence that gays and lesbians are capable of forming healthy, stable, and mutual relationships with each other"?

I think one would simply need one a single data point to show that they are capable. Such a data point might exist. I think it's the wrong question.

"Is the evidence that a significant fraction of gay and lesbians relationships will be dysfunctional and unhealthy?" I think is a better question (especially when answered relative to a similar heterosexual population).

And since the answer to that question is positive, the question then becomes how do we as a society deal with this population of gays and lesbians? Bruce Hafen's talk is a partial answer - at least with respect to those that believe in the Gospel. Some apparently don't like the response or the starting point upon which the talk stems from (mostly the latter I think).

[NEDRA]

Nedra,

What they are promised is a fulfilling partnership that will bring them joy. Isn't that what they really want?

That may be one of the desires, in addition to being loved for who they are as gay individuals.

When I talked about promises, I was referring to this quote from Elder Hafen's talk:

If you are faithful, on resurrection morning--and maybe even before then--you will rise with normal attractions for the opposite sex.

[Pahoran]

That may be one of the desires, in addition to being loved for who they are as gay individuals.

Excuse me while I wipe the syrup from my screen.

Nedra, is all of your thinking in these kinds of clich?s?

Here are a couple of parallel statements:

"Those guys in that jail over there don't want to be 'rehabilitated.' They want to be loved for who they are as purse-snatching individuals."

Oh, you don't think homosexuality should be seen in behavioural terms? Okay:

"The people in the plastic surgery ward I visited don't want to be 'healed.' They want to be loved for who they are as hare-lipped individuals."

What, you think comparing homosexuality to a birth defect is insulting? I'm sure it is, especially to people with harelips, a condition that is morally neutral and free from the sleaze factor that is the sine qua non of homosexuality.

We are a church that, unlike most of society, actually has moral standards. Those standards are impartially applied, and are not expressed in relativistic terms subject to anyone's "sexual orientation," whatever that might be. People are entirely free to be "who they are" by ceasing to attempt to overcome the natural man -- but by so choosing, they are ipso facto choosing not to be part of a covenant community of Saints.

It's really that simple. And the sense of entitlement by which people shrilly demand to have their cake and eat it too is quite beyond me.

Regards,

Pahoran

[mercyngrace]

That may be one of the desires, in addition to being loved for who they are as gay individuals.

When I talked about promises, I was referring to this quote from Elder Hafen's talk:

I knoow exactly what you are talking about but I think the fundamental difference between how we see this is that you see attraction as an eternal quality, I see it as a temporal one.

Love, charity, pure love of Christ - however you want to term it - is real love. It is the kind of love that attraction based love (hetero or homo) only imitates.

The underlying desire we all have is for a union based on selfless charity and personal virtue. Where our partner loves us unconditionally and is worthy of our complete faith and trust. A relationship like the one we can have with Christ.

Your suggestion is like me saying instead of letting me rise with a desire for sobriety, let me rise with the repeal of the word of wisdom and a never emptying cooler full of Coors. I say the underlying desire isn't for beer but for escape from the trials of mortality and that the satisfaction of that need is not in the quietude of intoxication but in the peace that passeth all understanding.

We're talking apples and oranges here.

[NEDRA]

Excuse me while I wipe the syrup from my screen.

Nedra, is all of your thinking in these kinds of clich?s?

Here are a couple of parallel statements:

"Those guys in that jail over there don't want to be 'rehabilitated.' They want to be loved for who they are as purse-snatching individuals."

Oh, you don't think homosexuality should be seen in behavioural terms? Okay:

"The people in the plastic surgery ward I visited don't want to be 'healed.' They want to be loved for who they are as hare-lipped individuals."

What, you think comparing homosexuality to a birth defect is insulting? I'm sure it is, especially to people with harelips, a condition that is morally neutral and free from the sleaze factor that is the sine qua non of homosexuality.

We are a church that, unlike most of society, actually has moral standards. Those standards are impartially applied, and are not expressed in relativistic terms subject to anyone's "sexual orientation," whatever that might be. People are entirely free to be "who they are" by ceasing to attempt to overcome the natural man -- but by so choosing, they are ipso facto choosing not to be part of a covenant community of Saints.

It's really that simple. And the sense of entitlement by which people shrilly demand to have their cake and eat it too is quite beyond me.

Regards,

Pahoran

Let me put it another way. I'm an African American, and when I was in the church, I was told years ago that I "shouldn't worry," because I will "be white in the next life."

Believe me; I wasn't worried-- I LOVE being black. I have no reason to want to be white. The church members I talked to insisted that being white was the ultimate state of righteous, celestial people.

I don't see what's so scandalous about saying that just as I prefer being black to being white (because black is who and what I am), some homosexual people enjoy being homosexual--whether or not they are celibate. Being homosexual is about more than just sex, just as being heterosexual is more than just about sex. I also married after 40, and wondered if I ever would marry. I was celibate until marriage, and know that it can be done. I simply see a big difference in saying that homosexuals should have no hope of ever enjoying the feeling of being attracted to and loving people they are biologically/psychologically disposed to loving; and saying that single people should have every hope of the same.

[Damien the Leper]

Key word "past". Besides which the teaching for as long as I've been a member is whatever the cause you don't engage in the behavior. The cause has changed in the psychological/sociological world. The teaching in the church regarding the behavior has not.

The LDS church has a self-serving and biased perspective that is clouded by ignorance beyond the study of sciences. In this case, the church is wrong just as conservative Christians are. The talk by Hafen is repulsive and is of the wolf/sheep variety.

I discussed this topic in my Religion and Sexuality class and many others both conservative and liberal agreed on its spiritual negligence and lack of authority.

Valentinus

[Glenn101]

The LDS church has a self-serving and biased perspective that is clouded by ignorance beyond the study of sciences. In this case, the church is wrong just as conservative Christians are. The talk by Hafen is repulsive and is of the wolf/sheep variety.

I discussed this topic in my Religion and Sexuality class and many others both conservative and liberal agreed on its spiritual negligence and lack of authority.

Valentinus

The Church's position that homosexual acts, adultery, fornication, etc. are sins before God is hardly a perspective from ignorance. Whatever you think science has shown it has not shown that homosexual acts are normal or not sinful before God. It does not matter how many people agree with you on this, it still does not make you or them any more correct. Popularity is hardly the way to ascertain whether something is correct or not.

Glenn

[SlackTime]

Let me put it another way. I'm an African American, and when I was in the church, I was told years ago that I "shouldn't worry," because I will "be white in the next life."

Believe me; I wasn't worried-- I LOVE being black. I have no reason to want to be white. The church members I talked to insisted that being white was the ultimate state of righteous, celestial people.

I don't see what's so scandalous about saying that just as I prefer being black to being white (because black is who and what I am), some homosexual people enjoy being homosexual--whether or not they are celibate. Being homosexual is about more than just sex, just as being heterosexual is more than just about sex. I also married after 40, and wondered if I ever would marry. I was celibate until marriage, and know that it can be done. I simply see a big difference in saying that homosexuals should have no hope of ever enjoying the feeling of being attracted to and loving people they are biologically/psychologically disposed to loving; and saying that single people should have every hope of the same.

Whoever told you that was wrong. As John said (1 John 3:2)

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

In other words, we will be neither black nor white, but we shall be like God, whatever that is like. And if it happens that I am resurrected darker or lighter than I am now, I could care less, for I want to be of the family of God, a child of God.

Similarly, in our desires, we will, like God, love all God's children in purity and charity, as He loves us. What kind of additional relationships will there be? All we know is that somehow, a man and a woman fulfill each other and that

... neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

(1 Cor 11:11)

What will that be like, we have no idea really, and can only speculate using our earthly experiences as husband and wife to try and understand what that future relationship will be.