Is God's love conditional or unconditional?

[Saint Sinner]

Now, there's a surprise. It's hard to imagine Saint Sinner disagreeing with a prophet and taking the opposite side, isn't it?

Lehi

One of the Prophets I like most because of his rationalism and liberalism is Hugh B. Brown. I wish there were more like him today.

Lehi,

Why is it necessarily considered the opposite side. Is it not true that Christ and Heavenly Father are the beacons of true love, mercy and compassion? Why is it opposite to believe the Bible when it states in different phrases that God's love is unconditional or without bounds or knows no end?

If anything, Nelson should not in any form be contradicting something as important as this found in scripture.

Your sarcasm is pointless and you brought nothing to the discussion with your judgementalism and attitude.

Saint Sinner

[CV75]

This is a letter that Paul Toscano wrote to Russell Nelson

I think there are several points of misunderstanding on the part of the writer of this letter.

â??As defined in most dictionaries, love has four basic meaningsâ?¦â? This is part of the problem of those who do not understand Elder Nelsonâ??s teachingâ??they are using the precepts of men as the standard by which to judge that which the Spirit communicates in full. Love entails many actions, feelings, attitudes and states of being that culminate in oneness, joy, charity, perfection, etc. This has been preached by Church leaders many times. Spiritual love has many more dimensions, and is much richer, and quickens all the other, basic forms of love listed in dictionaries. These have to be experienced and practiced before they and their dynamics can be understood.

â??But this aspect of Godâ??s love is only part of Godâ??s unconditional, enduring benevolence for his creations, which he desires to save at all costs to himself.â? This is not true. He will not destroy Himself or give away His eternal glory to another to â??saveâ? them. What Christ did may seem to have been giving all at all costs, but in retrospect that was a matter of perspective. He is still God and One with the Father.

"How can Godâ??s love be infinite if it is bounded or limited by conditions?"It is voluntarily bounded by His own mercy so as not to perfectly destroy those who will not abide in His love. Not doing so would be much like a forcing a spoiled, rebellious child of ten years old to take on adult marital responsibilities and relate to a spouse decades older, on terms and life experience impossible for the child to comprehend. Even a rebellious child should never be subject to that. It would destroy the child. Itâ??s sick.

"How can Godâ??s love be enduring if it cannot endure sin or disobedience"? It certainly endures outside the scope of those who will not receive it.

"How can it be universal if it excludes those you donâ??t approve of?" Loaded question.

"How can it be perfect if it is less reliable than the love of good children for abusive parents or that of good parents for errant children?" Loaded question; His love is not less reliable, so this question really can't be answered.

"â?¦the usual confusion of Church leaders over whether we are saved by works or grace." Now I get what this is all aboutâ??the sincere objections of an ex-member whose experience of losing his faith is "like losing your eyesight after an accident"â??as if he had no control over his apostasy, repentance or subsequent excommunication.

His other questions:

"Elder Nelson, is it probable that God would have created such a probationary state if his love were conditional?" â??Probableâ? and â??probationâ? certainly have a common Latin root, so â??yes, this is exactly the point.

"Is it probable that God would so love the world that he would send his Son into it to die for it if his love were conditional?" Yesâ??the resurrection is an unconditional gift, perfect â??onenessâ? with the Father --including the full sharing of divine love--is not.

"Is it probable that God would have endured all â?¦ if Godâ??s love were conditional?" Yes, His love in its fullness is greater than any and all the marvelous things listed.

"Is it probable that God would have restored the gospel, the priesthood, the ordinances, and the Church in the last days if God were a God of divine, conditional love?" Yes, His love in its fullness is greater than any and all of these.

"Isnâ??t it far more probable that Godâ??s love is unconditional and that it is the love of the Church and its leaders that is conditioned upon the unquestioning obedience of even the most loyal of the Saints?" Loaded question, accusatory, so really can't be answered.

[katherine the great]

I read his talk several times and concluded that it was really improperly titled. As I remember it, he was saying that God's love is NOT conditional. It is always there and does not go away simply because we may not return it. He still loves us, even when we do not "deserve" His love. The conditional part is US and whether or not we choose to feel or receive His love. The bestowal of blessings is a separate issue altogether. We love our children but good parents do not reward children for bad behavior. Of course, loving parents will give their children every opportunity to repent and do it right the next time.

[O-Brother]

Elder Nelson is essentially saying God's love doesn't mean He'll save everyone no matter what they want or do. Love is a reciprocal relationship. A true relationship of love involves the efforts and desires of two or more people.

I think God said that He loves the righteous and that the wicked will "burn" at the last day. So, I hope I'm not one of the wicked. I think the Flood is an example that God is willing to clean things up before we destroy ourselves and future generations with our evil ways.

[Obiwan]

Is God's love conditional or unconditional?

"While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional." (Russell M. Nelson)

"You are constantly mindful of the Saviorâ??s atonement and rejoice in His unconditional love." (Russell M. Nelson)

It's BOTH depending on the circumstances.....

Do you think God loves Satan? Not likely. Maybe part of him does, a deep sadness, but, the Father likely has moved on.

[Deborah]

I suggest that our level of maturity and understanding would be closer to a toddler and a parent.

Considering that it would be rather difficult to send an adult child to his room, that is what I was talking about.

Nevertheless I still love my adult children just as much, but they are no longer in my hands, but God's and they are accountable to him.

[Hughes]

As a believer, I have reached the highest level of Heaven. And this was given to me by the Lord Jesus Christ. Not by my own works (lest I should boast and think that I could attain it with my own power somehow), but it was a gift. Totally and completely given to me.

God's Unconditional love accounts for this gift that was given to all believers. Praise God.

[O-Brother]

I could be wrong but:

1. Jesus love seems to be unconditional while meeting all requirements of charity and justice.

2. God's love seems to be conditional, hence the need for a Savior to "save" us from destruction and self-destruction.

The Bible and the Book of Mormon are full of examples about things not turning out so well for those who elected to be disobedient. Look at what happened to Cain and the results of the War in Heaven. Also consider what will happen at the Last Day.

I think the idea of "unconditional" love - which is not mentioned in any official scripture that I know - comes from God is Love. It also comes from folks who want to continue sinning and think that God will only hit them with a few stripes and pull them into to Heaven regardless of their disobedience and behavior during their turn on earth.

Had the Savior not interceded and pleaded for us unto the Father, we might have been "toast"

I'm sure you've read about the "wrath of God..." but you've probably never read about the "wrath of Jesus"

[Hughes]

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ??and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ?? 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Very clear in the Biblical text that God's love is unconditional and salvation is a gift. Not something our works can earn.

[urroner]

Very clear in the Biblical text that God's love is unconditional and salvation is a gift. Not something our works can earn.

So, what happens to those whom God doesn't love, those whom He damns to an eternity of Hell? Where is His unconditional love and grace for them?

[charity's child]

I'm sure you've read about the "wrath of God..." but you've probably never read about the "wrath of Jesus"

That's because we've never read the book written by the moneylenders at the temple.

[Hughes]

So, what happens to those whom God doesn't love, those whom He damns to an eternity of Hell? Where is His unconditional love and grace for them?

Where do you get that God doesn't love them? Just because someone ignores the gift that was freely offered to them, doesn't mean that God stops loving them.

The key difference between the LDS position (as I understand it) and the Christian position is that the LDS position says, "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."[2 Nephi 25:23] Whereas the Christian position is that we are saved by grace alone, a pure gift of God. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ??and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ?? 9not by works, so that no one can boast." [Ephesians 2:8,9]

While the LDS position appeals to our sense of duty, it actually gives us a burden we were never intended to carry.

[LeSellers]

Where do you get that God doesn't love them? Just because someone ignores the gift that was freely offered to them, doesn't mean that God stops loving them.

What do you make of the following chapter from the Bible?

1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever. 5 And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel.

6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

The thought continues in chapter 2. Notice the Lord promises the same sorts of things against the priests who fail to serve Him and him who divorces the wife of his youth.

1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.

3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it. 4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. 6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. 8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. 12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.

13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand. 14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. 16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?

It seems to me that God's love is conditional on obedience to His laws and ordinances. At least, that's what the Bible says. I don't know about your scriptures.

Lehi

[Flyonthewall]

Where do you get that God doesn't love them? Just because someone ignores the gift that was freely offered to them, doesn't mean that God stops loving them.

The key difference between the LDS position (as I understand it) and the Christian position is that the LDS position says, "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."[2 Nephi 25:23] Whereas the Christian position is that we are saved by grace alone, a pure gift of God. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ??and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ?? 9not by works, so that no one can boast." [Ephesians 2:8,9]

While the LDS position appeals to our sense of duty, it actually gives us a burden we were never intended to carry.

What is Ephesians 2 really addressing? Rarely if ever does anyone who brings up this scripture cite the very next verse, verse 10:

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Are the works mentioned in verse 9, the same as mentioned in verse 10?

The whole emphasis of the letter to the Ephesians seems to be that the Jew and Gentile are saved alike, in Jesus. It matters not that the Gentiles were not subject to the Law of Moses and it's works, or that the Gentiles were not circumcised. Those things were done away with. The works that the Gentiles had no part in matter not, but the works "that God hath ordained that we should walk in", do. Chapters 4, 5 and 6 outline some of the things that we should do.

What think ye?

[Lightbearer]

As a believer, I have reached the highest level of Heaven. And this was given to me by the Lord Jesus Christ. Not by my own works (lest I should boast and think that I could attain it with my own power somehow), but it was a gift. Totally and completely given to me.

God's Unconditional love accounts for this gift that was given to all believers. Praise God.

But doesn't it show that God's love is not unconditional, if the condition is you must be a believer and have faith in Christ? Is not this a condition?

[daz2]

The article is a bit of a puzzle to me. As Paul Toscano writes, it seems difficult to reconcile the statements that God's love is infinite, eternal and universal, yet maintaining that it is "conditional." Of course, the gospel is full of paradoxes; as F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote, "The sign of a first rate mind is the ability to hold two contradictory ideas at the same time and still function." I would add that I think that is also a requirement to be a disciple and believer.

"Conditional" love on the part of mortal parents can be a toxic thing. Telling a child, "If you sin, or if you sin and do not repent, I will stop loving you," is cruel, and ultimately, I think, self-defeating.

Personally, I think what drove Elder Nelson's article was his concern about many gay members or former members claiming that God loved them "unconditionally," and using that as a reason not to try to change their life style. Sort of like the real reason, I think, for replacing the term "free agency" with "moral agency" or "agency"--because of that thought that children would use having "free agency" to justify commiting sin.

As a result of Elder Nelson's article, the term "unconditional love" has been largely dropped in correlated discourse. I would note, however, the Elder Hales used the less than a year ago in conference. ("That we may share His eternal, unconditional love with our brothers and sisters everywhere, is my humble prayer in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.")

It seems to me that the passages Elder Nelson cited stand for the proposition that the consequences (blessings or lack thereof) of our actions meted out by God are conditional. I, of course, believe that. But that does not mean that God's love--His affection, His benevolence, His concern--for us is conditional. I think it is because He loves us unconditionally (infinitely and universally) that He allows us to make our own choices and experience their consequences. And for the same reason He has provided a Savior in the event we have made bad choices, including very bad choices.

[Hughes]

What do you make of the following chapter from the Bible?The thought continues in chapter 2. Notice the Lord promises the same sorts of things against the priests who fail to serve Him and him who divorces the wife of his youth.

It seems to me that God's love is conditional on obedience to His laws and ordinances. At least, that's what the Bible says. I don't know about your scriptures.

Lehi

The quotes from Malachi were directed to the Jews of that time period (about 400 BC), which describe God's judgement. So, are you trying to say that because God judges those who reject his free gift of grace and unconditional love, therefore his love is conditional?

In order to say that, you'd have to demonstrate that God said, "I'm not loving you until you do these things..." Where these passages clearly don't say that, neither through the context or the content.

[Hughes]

What is Ephesians 2 really addressing? Rarely if ever does anyone who brings up this scripture cite the very next verse, verse 10:

Are the works mentioned in verse 9, the same as mentioned in verse 10?

The whole emphasis of the letter to the Ephesians seems to be that the Jew and Gentile are saved alike, in Jesus. It matters not that the Gentiles were not subject to the Law of Moses and it's works, or that the Gentiles were not circumcised. Those things were done away with. The works that the Gentiles had no part in matter not, but the works "that God hath ordained that we should walk in", do. Chapters 4, 5 and 6 outline some of the things that we should do.

What think ye?

Interesting, the works in verse nine refer directly to the work of salvation, that is given by grace, freely, that which we didn't earn. And then in verse 10, the interesting thing is that it continues. It's not us that does the works in us, but we are "his workmanship." Not our own workmanship, but his. He's the one doing the work in us, not us doing it. Rather, he's doing that work in us. We let him do his work in us, because we are his workmanship.

[Hughes]

But doesn't it show that God's love is not unconditional, if the condition is you must be a believer and have faith in Christ? Is not this a condition?

Sure. But, it's rather basic. How can you converse with someone unless you believe they exist?

The basic question is what are the requirements for salvation? How are sins forgiven? Who does this work? Do we? Or does God?

[LeSellers]

The quotes from Malachi were directed to the Jews of that time period (about 400 BC), which describe God's judgement. So, are you trying to say that because God judges those who reject his free gift of grace and unconditional love, therefore his love is conditional?

He said "Esau I hate." If His love is unconditional, how did Esau merit that hatred?

In order to say that, you'd have to demonstrate that God said, "I'm not loving you until you do these things..." Where these passages clearly don't say that, neither through the context or the content.

I disagree emphatically. He says, "Esau I hate," and then says why. If the hatred is conditioned on disobedience, it is only rational to accept that the converse is also true: the love is conditional; they're nothing but extremes of the same spectrum.

Unless, of course, you reject the Bible.

Lehi

[Flyonthewall]

Interesting, the works in verse nine refer directly to the work of salvation, that is given by grace, freely, that which we didn't earn. And then in verse 10, the interesting thing is that it continues. It's not us that does the works in us, but we are "his workmanship." Not our own workmanship, but his. He's the one doing the work in us, not us doing it. Rather, he's doing that work in us. We let him do his work in us, because we are his workmanship.

I agree that the Lord can and does work through us, but we must first put the effort out. We act, and He helps and magnifies. If we do not act, He will do nothing through us.

Jesus loves us unconditionally, this is manifested in the resurrection, and His teachings of what we must DO to return to the Father. If no works were required, then commandments would not have been given to obey, and teachings would not have been given to follow. God knows what the commandments and teachings of Jesus are, and is fully capable of following them. It is us that need to be obedient and follow His teachings, and if we do, He will help us, AND bless us.

I believe God's love is unconditional, but the fullness of it, has conditions. The fullness of God's love is to be joint heirs with Christ, and to be partakers in all that the Father has. Simple lip service will not do it. It is our willingness to DO that makes the difference.

[Hughes]

He said "Esau I hate." If His love is unconditional, how did Esau merit that hatred?

I disagree emphatically. He says, "Esau I hate," and then says why. If the hatred is conditioned on disobedience, it is only rational to accept that the converse is also true: the love is conditional; they're nothing but extremes of the same spectrum.

Unless, of course, you reject the Bible.

Lehi

The issue of God's unconditional love for us today has nothing to do with God hating Esau and using him for his purpose as is explained in Romans 9:11-26 (and following), "11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badâ??in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who callsâ??she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathâ??prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for gloryâ?? 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:

"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;

and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,

"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,

'You are not my people,'

they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]"

Did Esau merit God's Hate? Nope, not according to that passage.

[Hughes]

I agree that the Lord can and does work through us, but we must first put the effort out. We act, and He helps and magnifies. If we do not act, He will do nothing through us.

Jesus loves us unconditionally, this is manifested in the resurrection, and His teachings of what we must DO to return to the Father. If no works were required, then commandments would not have been given to obey, and teachings would not have been given to follow. God knows what the commandments and teachings of Jesus are, and is fully capable of following them. It is us that need to be obedient and follow His teachings, and if we do, He will help us, AND bless us.

I believe God's love is unconditional, but the fullness of it, has conditions. The fullness of God's love is to be joint heirs with Christ, and to be partakers in all that the Father has. Simple lip service will not do it. It is our willingness to DO that makes the difference.

Mixing two things here... One is the work that God does in us, after we are his own, after we are forgiven completely (of future sins too), by his unconditional love and acceptance. Two is salvation.

Salvation, or the forgiveness of all our sins (past/present/future), is done on the basis of his unconditional love, and his work alone. We don't do anything but accept (and believe) this completely a totally free gift. No amount of obedience can save us, or pay the price for our sin. "For by grace are you saved...."

And just as if you had kids, your kids don't earn their way into your house by being obedient. They want to be obedient because of your unconditional love for them. The obedience has nothing what-so-ever to do with your ongoing relationship with them. They will always be your kids, no matter what, and you'll always love them, no matter what.

[Deborah]

And just as if you had kids, your kids don't earn their way into your house by being obedient. They want to be obedient because of your unconditional love for them. The obedience has nothing what-so-ever to do with your ongoing relationship with them. They will always be your kids, no matter what, and you'll always love them, no matter what.

You either don't have kids or don't have teenagers. Kids do not always want to be obedient no matter how much you love them. And their obedience does affect your relationship. If they completely rebel against your rules and turn to a lifestyle which is contrary to all your values, you will continue to love them but you may not allow them to live in your home any longer because of the harm they may do to the rest of the family. Very much like our relationship to our Heavenly Father.

[Flyonthewall]

Mixing two things here... One is the work that God does in us, after we are his own, after we are forgiven completely (of future sins too), by his unconditional love and acceptance. Two is salvation.

Salvation, or the forgiveness of all our sins (past/present/future), is done on the basis of his unconditional love, and his work alone. We don't do anything but accept (and believe) this completely a totally free gift. No amount of obedience can save us, or pay the price for our sin. "For by grace are you saved...."

This is wonderful news! Since Jesus loves me unconditionally, and all I have to do is accpet that He has forgiven me, then I have no responsibility whatsoever over my own actions. It is a free gift and I need do nothing...right? This do nothing to get back to the presense of the Father is good stuff.

And just as if you had kids, your kids don't earn their way into your house by being obedient. They want to be obedient because of your unconditional love for them. The obedience has nothing what-so-ever to do with your ongoing relationship with them. They will always be your kids, no matter what, and you'll always love them, no matter what.

Like Deborah said, you must not have any kids. We have house rules that the kids are expected to follow. If they break the rules, they are disciplined. That includes being separated from the group, sent to their room, grounded, going to bed early, being left out of fun activities, etc.. Yes I love them, but when they do not follow the rules, they are not allowed to participate in everything that is available. Obedience has nothing to do with my love for them, but it does limit what they can do and where they can go. I am so full of joy when my children obey and can be with the family and have everything available to them. They participate and have access to everything I have provided for them out of my love for them. When they disobey, they cannot participate nor have access to everything I have provided for them out of love.