Is God's love conditional or unconditional?

[Hughes]

You either don't have kids or don't have teenagers. Kids do not always want to be obedient no matter how much you love them. And their obedience does affect your relationship. If they completely rebel against your rules and turn to a lifestyle which is contrary to all your values, you will continue to love them but you may not allow them to live in your home any longer because of the harm they may do to the rest of the family. Very much like our relationship to our Heavenly Father.

I do have kids... thanks.

And your relationship to them (that you are the parent, they are the child) never changes and isn't earned by obedience. That is the main correlating point to salvation by grace alone.

Is grace earned? No. Is relationship to our God earned? Nope. Are we saved by our obedience? Nope.

Do we always obey even though we have experienced his unconditional love? Nope. No one is perfect, not one. Does that mean he retracts his love because we're not perfect? Hardly. What sort of gift is that if it depends on our works? That's not a gift, that's called something we earned.

[Hughes]

This is wonderful news! Since Jesus loves me unconditionally, and all I have to do is accpet that He has forgiven me, then I have no responsibility whatsoever over my own actions. It is a free gift and I need do nothing...right? This do nothing to get back to the presense of the Father is good stuff.

Who said you don't have responsibility over your actions? All I'm saying is that we can't earn our salvation or relationship with God.

Like Deborah said, you must not have any kids. We have house rules that the kids are expected to follow. If they break the rules, they are disciplined. That includes being separated from the group, sent to their room, grounded, going to bed early, being left out of fun activities, etc.. Yes I love them, but when they do not follow the rules, they are not allowed to participate in everything that is available. Obedience has nothing to do with my love for them, but it does limit what they can do and where they can go. I am so full of joy when my children obey and can be with the family and have everything available to them. They participate and have access to everything I have provided for them out of my love for them. When they disobey, they cannot participate nor have access to everything I have provided for them out of love.

I agree. Those God loves he disciplines. However, forgiveness of sin/grace/salvation is in no way threatened by our disobedience, because we didn't earn our salvation by being obedient in the first place.

[Flyonthewall]

Who said you don't have responsibility over your actions? All I'm saying is that we can't earn our salvation or relationship with God.

The implication is there. If all my sins, past, present and future have already been forgiven, then there really isn't anything I can do to not be forgiven. It would not matter if I robbed a bank, because that has already been forgiven. If my sins have already been forgiven, then I have no responsibility for my actions. Forgiveness wipes the sin clean, and being already wiped clean, I need do nothing to change that.

I agree. Those God loves he disciplines. However, forgiveness of sin/grace/salvation is in no way threatened by our disobedience, because we didn't earn our salvation by being obedient in the first place.

But there does come a point in a child's life, that if they cannot obey the rules of the house, they can not remain in the house.

[Deborah]

However, forgiveness of sin/grace/salvation is in no way threatened by our disobedience, because we didn't earn our salvation by being obedient in the first place.

In that case what is hell?

[urroner]

Those God loves he disciplines. However, forgiveness of sin/grace/salvation is in no way threatened by our disobedience, because we didn't earn our salvation by being obedient in the first place.

If God is omnipotent and all-loving, then why does He choose some to go to Hell and some to get saved? Is He a respecter of people?

Person A commits a sin and only that sin and God damns him to Hell where he suffers indescribable torment and agony for the eternities simply because God chooses that person to go to Hell. God could have just as easily choose that person to be saved, but God refused to do so. The reason for God choosing to do so is unknowable.

Person B commits the same sin and only that same sin and God brings him into His loving arms and person B lives is paradise, praising God and plucking his harp for the eternities simply because God chooses that person to go to Heaven. God could have just as easily choose that person to be damned, but God refused to do so. The reason for God choosing to do so is unknowable.

God's love is totally unconditional, but for some it's more totally unconditional.

Does He love some more than others? Does God get pleasure out of condemning some to infinite punishment for finite crimes? I see no love there? Do you?

[Black Moclips]

I've always wondered if God really does love me, why can't/doesn't He tell me personally? I might believe in Him if there were some reason to, or if I felt some reciprocal feeling back towards me. In church, they always talk about God is our father, yet I've never heard one peep from him. I'm not the best dad in the world, but I at least speak with my kids individually and try to help them out. If God were so concerned with us believing in him, then I would think he would make the process a little more objective in discovering who he is and what he wants.

Now a thought just popped into my head. We say this life is to walk by faith, yada yada yada, if you knew too much it wouldn' be a test, la la la. However, look at your own kids. They know for a fact you exist. They know for certain what you want them to do. Yet they still choose and often, and I mean often, break the rules and have to learn the hard way. I think it would be the same if we all knew God existed for a fact. Some would obey, many would go off and do their own thing, and some would be in the middle. What would really change from now?

I'm not angry, I'm just saying...

[Heartleap]

I've always wondered if God really does love me, why can't/doesn't He tell me personally? I might believe in Him if there were some reason to, or if I felt some reciprocal feeling back towards me. In church, they always talk about God is our father, yet I've never heard one peep from him. I'm not the best dad in the world, but I at least speak with my kids individually and try to help them out. If God were so concerned with us believing in him, then I would think he would make the process a little more objective in discovering who he is and what he wants.

Now a thought just popped into my head. We say this life is to walk by faith, yada yada yada, if you knew too much it wouldn' be a test, la la la. However, look at your own kids. They know for a fact you exist. They know for certain what you want them to do. Yet they still choose and often, and I mean often, break the rules and have to learn the hard way. I think it would be the same if we all knew God existed for a fact. Some would obey, many would go off and do their own thing, and some would be in the middle. What would really change from now?

I'm not angry, I'm just saying...

Maybe God is telling you but you are not in a place where you can hear him. it's not any fault of your own it is just not knowing the tools to hear him. Take extra time to worship and just love God not asking him for anything. Just thanking him for what he has done, Tell him how wonderful he is, because he is. forgive everyone who has sinned against you and lay all of yourself and sins at his feet. Read his words to you in scripture and find all the places where he talks about his love for you. It often takes me time in worship to find myself hearing from God but he does show up. It has nothing to do with trying harder it has nothing to do with being worthy. It has to do with loving him and when he sees your desire for him he shows up. God is drawn to our love for him and so the more we love the more he reveals himself. That's how it works for me anyway. I also like to listen to worship music when seeking his presence.

Heartleap...

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Who said you don't have responsibility over your actions? All I'm saying is that we can't earn our salvation or relationship with God.

THis is important, what is our responsibilty?

Straw man alert. No one has claimed that we can earn our salvation or relationship with God.

Tell Me Hughes, When Jesus said He know who his sheep are and they hear his voice, and follow him. What do you make of that?

Can his sheep be his if they don't follow him?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Where do you get that God doesn't love them? Just because someone ignores the gift that was freely offered to them, doesn't mean that God stops loving them.

The key difference between the LDS position (as I understand it) and the Christian position is that the LDS position says, "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."[2 Nephi 25:23] Whereas the Christian position is that we are saved by grace alone, a pure gift of God. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ??and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ?? 9not by works, so that no one can boast." [Ephesians 2:8,9]

While the LDS position appeals to our sense of duty, it actually gives us a burden we were never intended to carry.

If you want there is 2 other threads going on that dicuss this.

As you put it "we have some responisiblity" when it comes to our salvation.

You standard proof text anti-mormon version of 2Nephi is lacking and unconvincing.

What happens if my faith have not works Hughes??

[ebeddoulos]

I have a child who, over a five year period, received tens of thousands of dollars in "loans" (I promise to pay you back, Dad, I promise) which I seriously doubt I will ever see. This is far more than all the other loans I have made to all of my other children combined. Do I love them any less?

When this child came to me for a loan the last time, I refused to make the loan unless he opened his budget up for examination and monitoring plus requiring him to pay a full tithing and take his family to church. He left in a huff because I was trying to control his life. This was a true statement; I was and I had not made similar requirements on my other children. Because I shuttered the doors to the Bank of Ebed, do I love him any less?

No matter what they do, I do not stop loving any of my children; It is unconditional. Sometimes my unconditional love is manifested with conditions.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

We don't do anything but accept (and believe) this completely a totally free gift. No amount of obedience can save us, or pay the price for our sin. "For by grace are you saved...."

How ever we are told that disobediances will damn us, even if we are "saved".

What will we be judged by at the last day? If I accepted the free gift or not? Or are we judged on our works?

You know that pesky verse of James keeps comming up, that Fiath with out works is dead, your faith cannot save you if you have no works.

See no on has ever claimed that you gain salvation by being totally perfect. Can you ditch the strawman arguement? But you must do your part to do your best to live in line with what Jesus taught after you are born again. That my friend is our part.

Mixing two things here... One is the work that God does in us, after we are his own, after we are forgiven completely (of future sins too), by his unconditional love and acceptance. Two is salvation.

Salvation, or the forgiveness of all our sins (past/present/future), is done on the basis of his unconditional love, and his work alone. We don't do anything but accept (and believe) this completely a totally free gift. No amount of obedience can save us, or pay the price for our sin. "For by grace are you saved...."

THis is false. We are not automatically forgiven of every sin that we will ever commit the 2nd we confess Jesus. Eternal Security is a false doctirne and is not taught in scripture what so ever. We learn that the Sons of perdition will not be saved. Why are they not going to be saved? We are told that you must have the light (saved) and turn form that light, only then will we not have forgivness. You know is Judas saved? Why not, he obviously believed as he followed Jesus and was an Apostle.

[urroner]

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I choose Jesus not Paul!! Paul doesn't know what he is talking about, apparently Paul wasn't a real Christian.

[Hughes]

<!--quoteo(post=1208696436:date=Jul 21 2009, 10:44 PM:name=Hughes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hughes @ Jul 21 2009, 10:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1208696436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Who said you don't have responsibility over your actions? All I'm saying is that we can't earn our salvation or relationship with God.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The implication is there. If all my sins, past, present and future have already been forgiven, then there really isn't anything I can do to not be forgiven. It would not matter if I robbed a bank, because that has already been forgiven. If my sins have already been forgiven, then I have no responsibility for my actions. Forgiveness wipes the sin clean, and being already wiped clean, I need do nothing to change that.

Forgiveness of sin/salvation isn't conditioned on anything you do. That weight can only be lifted by God. No amount of not sinning or being obedient can forgive sin.

So yes, the burden is gone, the weight it lifted. Forgiveness of sin (all of them) is yours free. Now that you've been forgiven, does that mean you want to rob a bank?

You see, the crux of salvation isn't actions, but desires. It isn't what you do on the outside, but what you are on the inside that matters to God. And God changes the heart first, and works from the inside out.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree. Those God loves he disciplines. However, forgiveness of sin/grace/salvation is in no way threatened by our disobedience, because we didn't earn our salvation by being obedient in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->But there does come a point in a child's life, that if they cannot obey the rules of the house, they can not remain in the house.

A child that is constantly disobedient is also one that has rejected your love. In this analogy, the persons who continually reject God's love and free gift will be rejected as well.

[Hughes]

<!--quoteo(post=1208696436:date=Jul 21 2009, 10:44 PM:name=Hughes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hughes @ Jul 21 2009, 10:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1208696436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, forgiveness of sin/grace/salvation is in no way threatened by our disobedience, because we didn't earn our salvation by being obedient in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In that case what is hell?

Hell is reserved for those who rejected God's unconditional love.

[Hughes]

QUOTE(Hughes @ Jul 22 2009, 12:44 AM) Those God loves he disciplines. However, forgiveness of sin/grace/salvation is in no way threatened by our disobedience, because we didn't earn our salvation by being obedient in the first place.

If God is omnipotent and all-loving, then why does He choose some to go to Hell and some to get saved? Is He a respecter of people?

Person A commits a sin and only that sin and God damns him to Hell where he suffers indescribable torment and agony for the eternities simply because God chooses that person to go to Hell. God could have just as easily choose that person to be saved, but God refused to do so. The reason for God choosing to do so is unknowable.

Person B commits the same sin and only that same sin and God brings him into His loving arms and person B lives is paradise, praising God and plucking his harp for the eternities simply because God chooses that person to go to Heaven. God could have just as easily choose that person to be damned, but God refused to do so. The reason for God choosing to do so is unknowable.

God's love is totally unconditional, but for some it's more totally unconditional.

Does He love some more than others? Does God get pleasure out of condemning some to infinite punishment for finite crimes? I see no love there? Do you?

OK... God is all knowing and all powerful, and all-loving why does he choose some to suffer and some not to suffer.

The answer lies in two things. One is the moral free will that God gave us to choose to love him or not, and God's infinite foreknowledge. For those God knows will love him, he has elected to become the sons of God. And those whom he knows will reject him will be damned.

You see, it's not difficult to understand. But, that doesn't mean we know what people he's chosen for what. Only God knows.

So, for us, yes we can know and experience God's unconditional love for us. Everyone has a free will to accept or reject it, because what sort of love what it be if God forced us to love him? It would be empty and meaningless. So, free will is key in our relationship to him.

[Hughes]

I've always wondered if God really does love me, why can't/doesn't He tell me personally? I might believe in Him if there were some reason to, or if I felt some reciprocal feeling back towards me. In church, they always talk about God is our father, yet I've never heard one peep from him. I'm not the best dad in the world, but I at least speak with my kids individually and try to help them out. If God were so concerned with us believing in him, then I would think he would make the process a little more objective in discovering who he is and what he wants.

Now a thought just popped into my head. We say this life is to walk by faith, yada yada yada, if you knew too much it wouldn' be a test, la la la. However, look at your own kids. They know for a fact you exist. They know for certain what you want them to do. Yet they still choose and often, and I mean often, break the rules and have to learn the hard way. I think it would be the same if we all knew God existed for a fact. Some would obey, many would go off and do their own thing, and some would be in the middle. What would really change from now?

I'm not angry, I'm just saying...

God has spoken many times. Directly to people... it was written down too.... I'm just saying...

[Hughes]

QUOTE(Hughes @ Jul 21 2009, 10:44 PM)Who said you don't have responsibility over your actions? All I'm saying is that we can't earn our salvation or relationship with God.

THis is important, what is our responsibilty?

Straw man alert. No one has claimed that we can earn our salvation or relationship with God.

Oh?

When the leader of the LDS church says that God's love is conditional you don't think that's a reference to the fact that salvation and/or relationship with God is what he's talking about?

Tell Me Hughes, When Jesus said He know who his sheep are and they hear his voice, and follow him. What do you make of that?

Can his sheep be his if they don't follow him?

You point is what? That if people don't "appear" to be following Jesus according to your way or understanding, then they must not be his?

My point is simple. By grace you're saved, unconditional grace and love is extended to us. No strings attached.

[Hughes]

<!--quoteo(post=1208695770:date=Jul 20 2009, 10:58 PM:name=Hughes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hughes @ Jul 20 2009, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1208695770"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where do you get that God doesn't love them? Just because someone ignores the gift that was freely offered to them, doesn't mean that God stops loving them.

The key difference between the LDS position (as I understand it) and the Christian position is that the LDS position says, "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, <b>after all we can do.</b>"[2 Nephi 25:23] Whereas the Christian position is that we are saved by grace alone, a pure gift of God. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ??and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ?? 9not by works, so that no one can boast." [Ephesians 2:8,9]

While the LDS position appeals to our sense of duty, it actually gives us a burden we were never intended to carry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

If you want there is 2 other threads going on that dicuss this.

As you put it "we have some responisiblity" when it comes to our salvation.

You standard proof text anti-mormon version of 2Nephi is lacking and unconvincing.

What happens if my faith have not works Hughes??

I don't agree that we have any responsibility when it comes to our salvation. God does 100% of the work.

As for the anti-mormon proof text. Please tell me what it means then. I'm all ears.

What happens if your faith have not works?

Actually, it's not possible. If you have faith, if you're his, if you've experienced his unconditional love, your heart will be changed, and as a result, so will your life, and it will show.

[Hughes]

QUOTE(Hughes @ Jul 21 2009, 08:22 PM) We don't do anything but accept (and believe) this completely a totally free gift. No amount of obedience can save us, or pay the price for our sin. "For by grace are you saved...."

How ever we are told that disobediances will damn us, even if we are "saved".

Sorry, but your statement doesn't even make sense. If we are saved, then we can't be damned, unless we aren't saved, then we can be damned because we aren't saved.

What will we be judged by at the last day? If I accepted the free gift or not? Or are we judged on our works?

Nope. We will only be judged by whether or not we are his or not. It's a relationship thing, not a works thing. Never has been a works thing. It doesn't say, "for by works are you saved... " Nope. It says, "By grace you've been saved... "

You know that pesky verse of James keeps comming up, that Fiath with out works is dead, your faith cannot save you if you have no works.

See no on has ever claimed that you gain salvation by being totally perfect. Can you ditch the strawman arguement? But you must do your part to do your best to live in line with what Jesus taught after you are born again. That my friend is our part.

Actually, it's not the faith that saves you at all, but Jesus. Nothing you do saves you. Works, nothing. Only Jesus. "Do your part..." is simply a burden that is put on you by the LDS church. There's nothing you can do to add to your salvation. Nothing. It's done and given to you for free. Done. As Jesus said, "It is finished..." Done.

QUOTE(Hughes @ Jul 21 2009, 08:22 PM) Mixing two things here... One is the work that God does in us, after we are his own, after we are forgiven completely (of future sins too), by his unconditional love and acceptance. Two is salvation.

Salvation, or the forgiveness of all our sins (past/present/future), is done on the basis of his unconditional love, and his work alone. We don't do anything but accept (and believe) this completely a totally free gift. No amount of obedience can save us, or pay the price for our sin. "For by grace are you saved...."

THis is false. We are not automatically forgiven of every sin that we will ever commit the 2nd we confess Jesus. Eternal Security is a false doctirne and is not taught in scripture what so ever. We learn that the Sons of perdition will not be saved. Why are they not going to be saved? We are told that you must have the light (saved) and turn form that light, only then will we not have forgivness. You know is Judas saved? Why not, he obviously believed as he followed Jesus and was an Apostle.

We are not automatically forgiven of every sin we will ever commit the second we confess Jesus? Curious. How do you know this?

Seems to me that Eternal Security isn't mentioned anywhere. I'm only talking about Grace and unconditional love.

The thief who was on a cross next to Jesus was told that "Today you will be with me in Paradise." Hmm... curious huh? He didn't even have time to do any works now did he?

Was Judas saved or not? I don't know. Only God knows. To me it's a waste of time to debate what only God knows.

What I do know is that forgiveness of sin (past/present/future) is offered as a free gift, without reference to works lest anyone should boast.

Oh by the way.... I'm sure you have other threads dealing with this. Sorry I can't keep up with them as I'm getting married Saturday.

[Hughes]

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, <b>work out your own salvation with fear and trembling</b>.

Notice: Philippians 2:12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyedâ??not only in my presence, but now much more in my absenceâ??continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

I've quoted the NIV so it's easier to see what's being said. AS can be seen from verse 13, it's God who does the work. We let him. It's our connection/relationship to him that allows him to do his work in us. And that connection isn't based on works or "doing all we can..." nope. Not at all. It's based on relationship. It's interesting to note that it's "God who works in you to will and to act..." it's God who changes our desires, or will. Not by some force of will on our own or some external power. Nope. It's God's unconditional love and acceptance that changes our hearts from the inside out that results in our change of will.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Oh?

When the leader of the LDS church says that God's love is conditional you don't think that's a reference to the fact that salvation and/or relationship with God is what he's talking about?

You point is what? That if people don't "appear" to be following Jesus according to your way or understanding, then they must not be his?

My point is simple. By grace you're saved, unconditional grace and love is extended to us. No strings attached.

I am unfamiliar with any biblical teaching that says Grace is unconditional.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Notice: Philippians 2:12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyedâ??not only in my presence, but now much more in my absenceâ??continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

I've quoted the NIV so it's easier to see what's being said. AS can be seen from verse 13, it's God who does the work. We let him. It's our connection/relationship to him that allows him to do his work in us. And that connection isn't based on works or "doing all we can..." nope. Not at all. It's based on relationship. It's interesting to note that it's "God who works in you to will and to act..." it's God who changes our desires, or will. Not by some force of will on our own or some external power. Nope. It's God's unconditional love and acceptance that changes our hearts from the inside out that results in our change of will.

I reject the NIV, it is a false bible.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't agree that we have any responsibility when it comes to our salvation. God does 100% of the work.

As for the anti-mormon proof text. Please tell me what it means then. I'm all ears.

What happens if your faith have not works?

Actually, it's not possible. If you have faith, if you're his, if you've experienced his unconditional love, your heart will be changed, and as a result, so will your life, and it will show.

This is laughable. I have good works with my faith so I must be saved and you are wasting your time.

Works are not a result of salvation, I can find no were in the bible were it says taht. Works might be a result of faith and being born again, but being born again is not the same as being save. I reject eternal security to, As many times in the bible we are told that if we trun from taht which we know we will be damned as we crucify Christ a fresh.

See, Hughes, every LDS makes a covenant at bapstim to take upon us the name of CHrist and always remeber him. We have faith that we are saved and show that faith with our works. It is pointless for you to try and convert any LDS as we already beleive some of the same things you do. Such as Faith in Christ will lead to salvation.

[urroner]

OK... God is all knowing and all powerful, and all-loving why does he choose some to suffer and some not to suffer.

The answer lies in two things. One is the moral free will that God gave us to choose to love him or not, and God's infinite foreknowledge. For those God knows will love him, he has elected to become the sons of God. And those whom he knows will reject him will be damned.

You see, it's not difficult to understand. But, that doesn't mean we know what people he's chosen for what. Only God knows.

So, for us, yes we can know and experience God's unconditional love for us. Everyone has a free will to accept or reject it, because what sort of love what it be if God forced us to love him? It would be empty and meaningless. So, free will is key in our relationship to him.

So God being omnipotent AND omniscient purposefully creates beings He knows will fail and will suffer for the eternites when it is completely within His power to not do so. Doesn't sound like His love is very unconditional. According to what you said above, God knowingly creates faulty beings when it is completely in His power to not do so and since He chooses not to do so, He then purposefully damns them to Hell and endless torment for the eternities when it's completely within His power to save them.

Since, by your reasoning, God purposefully created imperfect beings, then he doesn't give these imperfect beings any chance to save themselves since reserves that capability only for Himself , and then damns these imperfect beings for being imperfect, it sounds like God isn't a very loving being. It sounds like He purposefully wants most of the children of Adam and Eve to be damned to Hell.

Sorry Hughes, that makes no sense to me. Can you point out where I am wrong in my logic?