Is God's love conditional or unconditional?

[Flyonthewall]

In the context of salvation by works or not, there's no condition. Faith isn't a work nor could it be. As you have quoted in James, Faith without works is dead, therefore faith cannot be works.

I am a theif. I am a liar. I am an adulterer and murderer. I believe that Jesus Christ is my savior and accept what He has done. I believe He will clean up any mess I make, any sin I commit. I do not see the need to change my lifestyle, because Jesus has already saved me in my sins.

I have belief/faith that I am saved, and have done no works. According to your set up, I am saved and need not do anything.

Then out of the other side of your mouth, you state that If I am truly saved, I will have works that are a fruit of my salvation, and if I don't have works, then I really wasn't saved to begin with.

I see you saying that I do not need to do anything to be "saved", but to keep my salvation, I need to have works - the fruit of salvation. No conditions to receive this gift, but there are indeed conditions to keep it. This way, one can say God's love is unconditional, and still have Him exclude people from it.

[Hughes]

I am a theif. I am a liar. I am an adulterer and murderer. I believe that Jesus Christ is my savior and accept what He has done. I believe He will clean up any mess I make, any sin I commit. I do not see the need to change my lifestyle, because Jesus has already saved me in my sins.

I have belief/faith that I am saved, and have done no works. According to your set up, I am saved and need not do anything.

Then out of the other side of your mouth, you state that If I am truly saved, I will have works that are a fruit of my salvation, and if I don't have works, then I really wasn't saved to begin with.

I see you saying that I do not need to do anything to be "saved", but to keep my salvation, I need to have works - the fruit of salvation. No conditions to receive this gift, but there are indeed conditions to keep it. This way, one can say God's love is unconditional, and still have Him exclude people from it.

Living in Christ is what happens after salvation.

In other words, his love remains unconditional, but the blessings of following him on a daily basis are conditional on what you or I do. In essence, even if an Atheist follows the principles of Christ, they will be blessed (husband of one wife, telling the truth, being a good neighbor, etc...). And a believer will not be blessed if he/she rejects those principles and continues to lie/steal/destroy lives. Salvation isn't conditioned on what we do, but the attitude of our heart. The "work" of salvation is done. We can't add to that or become more worthy of salvation by doing good works.

[Flyonthewall]

Living in Christ is what happens after salvation.

In other words, his love remains unconditional, but the blessings of following him on a daily basis are conditional on what you or I do. In essence, even if an Atheist follows the principles of Christ, they will be blessed (husband of one wife, telling the truth, being a good neighbor, etc...). And a believer will not be blessed if he/she rejects those principles and continues to lie/steal/destroy lives. Salvation isn't conditioned on what we do, but the attitude of our heart. The "work" of salvation is done. We can't add to that or become more worthy of salvation by doing good works.

Am I to understand that "salvation" does not include the fulness of blessings from God? Afterall, all one has to do to be "saved" is believe...right? And whether or not we, as a "saved" believer, receive a fullness of God's blessings is dependent upon how we act?

Hmmmm....starting to sound familiar....

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

In the context of salvation by works or not, there's no condition. Faith isn't a work nor could it be. As you have quoted in James, Faith without works is dead, therefore faith cannot be works.

Try to pay attention Hughes.

I said nothing about faith being a work. THat is a strawman on your end so you can dismiss the point I made, that salvation has a condition even in your theology, and that condition is to have faith. After all we are saved after all we can do, and all we can do is to have faith. DO you disagree? If not then you are taking the road that all mankind is saved period. Either that or you are a Calvinist, were God makes you do it all.

[Hughes]

Am I to understand that "salvation" does not include the fulness of blessings from God? Afterall, all one has to do to be "saved" is believe...right? And whether or not we, as a "saved" believer, receive a fullness of God's blessings is dependent upon how we act?

Hmmmm....starting to sound familiar....

Salvation includes all the fullness of Blessings of God. Consider the Thief on the Cross with Jesus, "Today you will be with me in Paradise..." Nothing about, you'll be limited in blessings or anything. Full blessings, with him for eternity. And that said to a Thief!

[Hughes]

Try to pay attention Hughes.

I said nothing about faith being a work. THat is a strawman on your end so you can dismiss the point I made, that salvation has a condition even in your theology, and that condition is to have faith. After all we are saved after all we can do, and all we can do is to have faith. DO you disagree? If not then you are taking the road that all mankind is saved period. Either that or you are a Calvinist, were God makes you do it all.

First, even you stated that you don't know what is referred to in the Nephi passage, "saved after all we can do." I would disagree, that it's referring to faith since it's rarely something we do. Typically, when a text talks about what can be "done..." it's typically referring to some sort of physical action.

IS all mankind saved? Nope.

Calvinist? Nope.

We are saved by Grace, it's a gift of God, just as the text says. Praise God for that.

[Flyonthewall]

Salvation includes all the fullness of Blessings of God. Consider the Thief on the Cross with Jesus, "Today you will be with me in Paradise..." Nothing about, you'll be limited in blessings or anything. Full blessings, with him for eternity. And that said to a Thief!

You stated:

In other words, his love remains unconditional, but the blessings of following him on a daily basis are conditional on what you or I do. In essence, even if an Atheist follows the principles of Christ, they will be blessed (husband of one wife, telling the truth, being a good neighbor, etc...). And a believer will not be blessed if he/she rejects those principles and continues to lie/steal/destroy lives. Salvation isn't conditioned on what we do, but the attitude of our heart. The "work" of salvation is done. We can't add to that or become more worthy of salvation by doing good works.

Salvation comes to believers, but yet believers will not be blessed if they continue in their bad actions. So therefore I am to conclude that salvation does not include the fullness of blessings from God, because salvation is not based on what we do, but blessings are.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

First, even you stated that you don't know what is referred to in the Nephi passage, "saved after all we can do." I would disagree, that it's referring to faith since it's rarely something we do. Typically, when a text talks about what can be "done..." it's typically referring to some sort of physical action.

IS all mankind saved? Nope.

Calvinist? Nope.

We are saved by Grace, it's a gift of God, just as the text says. Praise God for that.

I said the text doesn't refer to anything specific was the point I was making, not taht I didn't know what it was refering too.

For the last time, since you didn't get it the other 2 times I will make this really simple.

The only thing we can do is to have fatih.

If faith isn't something we do, why am I constantly being told all I need to "do" is to have faith and accpet Jesus into my heart by evangelicas and bpatists?

Is faith something one has no control over?

It is you contention taht we have choices and agency, hence you are not a Calvinist. And all are not saved, so what is the condition to one's salvation.

Your repsonse could be something like, " We have to accept the gift and trust 100%". Ok how do we accpet the gift then? Thanks.

note: I noticed you made the claim that faith is "rarely" an act. I belief that faith is an action every time the word is used when tied in with the original greek.

Consider this from Wikipedea

"In the New Testament, the word faith is derived from the Greek word pistis or from the verb pisteuo, meaning to trust, to have confidence, faithfulness, to be reliable, to assure.[16]"

Notice what is a verb? What do verbs denote?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Salvation includes all the fullness of Blessings of God. Consider the Thief on the Cross with Jesus, "Today you will be with me in Paradise..." Nothing about, you'll be limited in blessings or anything. Full blessings, with him for eternity. And that said to a Thief!

Huhges, is paradise heaven? If so on what grounds do you think they are the same?

Were was Jesus for the 3 days if he was not with his Father who was in hevean?

John 20: 17

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Notes the word ascedned and Father. God the Father is in heaven and you ascened to get there, so if he didnt ascened, were was he?

[Hughes]

You stated:

Salvation comes to believers, but yet believers will not be blessed if they continue in their bad actions. So therefore I am to conclude that salvation does not include the fullness of blessings from God, because salvation is not based on what we do, but blessings are.

Notice, that I made a reference to the thief on the cross, so with respect to salvation. I was specifically talking about life after death. The thief received the fullness of blessings of God, as any believer will when we go to heaven.

Where as before, I was talking about "blessings" one receives following God's principles, while still living on Earth.

[Hughes]

I said the text doesn't refer to anything specific was the point I was making, not taht I didn't know what it was refering too.

For the last time, since you didn't get it the other 2 times I will make this really simple.

The only thing we can do is to have fatih.

If faith isn't something we do, why am I constantly being told all I need to "do" is to have faith and accpet Jesus into my heart by evangelicas and bpatists?

Is faith something one has no control over?

It is you contention taht we have choices and agency, hence you are not a Calvinist. And all are not saved, so what is the condition to one's salvation.

Your repsonse could be something like, " We have to accept the gift and trust 100%". Ok how do we accpet the gift then? Thanks.

How do you accept any gift? It's no different, oh with the one exception that it's from God, which is where faith comes in.

note: I noticed you made the claim that faith is "rarely" an act. I belief that faith is an action every time the word is used when tied in with the original greek.

Consider this from Wikipedea

"In the New Testament, the word faith is derived from the Greek word pistis or from the verb pisteuo, meaning to trust, to have confidence, faithfulness, to be reliable, to assure.[16]"

Notice what is a verb? What do verbs denote?

That's fine. It's not considered a "work" in the James passage. Nor is it considered a work by Paul in Ephesians, in the salvation is not by works, lest any man should boast.

[Flyonthewall]

Notice, that I made a reference to the thief on the cross, so with respect to salvation. I was specifically talking about life after death. The thief received the fullness of blessings of God, as any believer will when we go to heaven.

Where as before, I was talking about "blessings" one receives following God's principles, while still living on Earth.

Then you misunderstand the interaction with the thief on the cross. The theif did not go to heaven, if you believe heaven to be the presence of God. As has been brought up by Mola Ram, at Jesus' resurrection, which took place several days after His death, Jesus states that He had not yet ascended to His Father. Yet Jesus promised that the thief would be with Him in paradise that day.

There is a huge hole in your reasoning that paradise = heaven.

[Hughes]

Huhges, is paradise heaven? If so on what grounds do you think they are the same?

First of all, what is heaven? What makes heaven the wonderful place that it is?

I'd say that the answer is God's presence. Where ever he is, in his fulness, that is heaven.

So, when Jesus said, today you will be with me, in paradise. Yes, that would be heaven.

Were was Jesus for the 3 days if he was not with his Father who was in hevean?

John 20: 17

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Notes the word ascedned and Father. God the Father is in heaven and you ascened to get there, so if he didnt ascened, were was he?

First he was in Paradise, then the Earth.

[Hughes]

Then you misunderstand the interaction with the thief on the cross. The theif did not go to heaven, if you believe heaven to be the presence of God. As has been brought up by Mola Ram, at Jesus' resurrection, which took place several days after His death, Jesus states that He had not yet ascended to His Father. Yet Jesus promised that the thief would be with Him in paradise that day.

There is a huge hole in your reasoning that paradise = heaven.

Which is relevant how? To the question of unconditional love?

[Flyonthewall]

Which is relevant how? To the question of unconditional love?

Unconditional love does not mean fullness of God's blessings. By your own statements, the fullness of God's blessings do not equal salvation. You are the one that brought up the thief on the cross as proof, or at least evidence, of Christ granting salvation and the fullness of God's blessings unconditionally. I was merely pointing out that Jesus neither promised salvation or the fullness of God's blessings to the thief.

God loves everyone unconditionally, but the fullness of God's blessings, and one might argue, the fullness of God's love, is conditional.

[Hughes]

Unconditional love does not mean fullness of God's blessings. By your own statements, the fullness of God's blessings do not equal salvation. You are the one that brought up the thief on the cross as proof, or at least evidence, of Christ granting salvation and the fullness of God's blessings unconditionally. I was merely pointing out that Jesus neither promised salvation or the fullness of God's blessings to the thief.

God loves everyone unconditionally, but the fullness of God's blessings, and one might argue, the fullness of God's love, is conditional.

Mixing the fullness of God's love and God's Blessings. Nice move.

I, however, think that you're confusing the situation.

God's blessing here on earth... conditional. Yes I agree.

God's love remains unconditional. Not just part of his love, whatever "fullness of God's love" might mean.

Salvation stems from God's unconditional love.

[paulpatter]

The higher levels of love encompass trust, admiration, mutual respect, and unity and they are indeed conditional. If you are in a great marriage, you recognize that one of the beauties of that relationship is that you are of one mind and heart. This love is not comparable to the paternalistic love you feel for a child who has limited scope and vision and who acts selfishly. The limitations are because of your child's incapacity and immaturity. As parents we love our children infinitely but we also recognize that the love, in some cases, does not allow for trust and respect because of the decisions our children have made.

Certainly the blessings are also conditional. You don't let your child have the car keys if you've caught him drinking and driving.

I agree. If God's love were unconditional, how could mercy be tempered with justice?

[Flyonthewall]

Mixing the fullness of God's love and God's Blessings. Nice move.

I, however, think that you're confusing the situation.

God's blessing here on earth... conditional. Yes I agree.

God's love remains unconditional. Not just part of his love, whatever "fullness of God's love" might mean.

Salvation stems from God's unconditional love.

I may not be doing a very good job of making my thoughts very understandable. I'll give it another shot...

In my own mind, the fullness of God's love = the fullness of God's blessings. That is, we become one with Christ(John 17:21), who is one with the Father, and joint heirs with Christ(Romans 8:17). To be glorified together with the Father and Jesus Christ. Nothing held back.

Any blessing withheld is less than the fullness of His love...that is less than all that His love offers.

God's love for us is unconditional, but all that His love offers definately has conditions, so therefore, the fullness of His love has conditions.

Jesus' love of the House of Israel is apparent in His lamentations in Mathew 23, but that doesn't stop Him from letting them suffer the consequences of their own actions. The same as it is with us as individuals. He loves us unconditionally, but we will be judged by our own actions, and that judgment will determine which blessings will be given, and which blessings will be withheld. If one is not a partaker in all that God has to offer, then that one falls short of the fullness of God's love.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

First of all, what is heaven?

You tell me. I just asked if paradise is the same as heaven.

What makes heaven the wonderful place that it is?

Lots of things.

I'd say that the answer is God's presence. Where ever he is, in his fulness, that is heaven.

Ok I agree with you that God's presence would denote hevean.

Is Jesus the Father?

So, when Jesus said, today you will be with me, in paradise. Yes, that would be heaven.

How does that train of thought flow? Jesus is not the Father and Jesus had not yet ascened to His Father. This verse also seems to strike against the nicean trinitarian view as well. Why did Jesus have to ascend to His Father if He and His Father are one? (3 in one and one in 3)? THey whole distinct but not separate idea.

First he was in Paradise, then the Earth.

Huh?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mixing the fullness of God's love and God's Blessings. Nice move.

I, however, think that you're confusing the situation.

God's blessing here on earth... conditional. Yes I agree.

God's love remains unconditional. Not just part of his love, whatever "fullness of God's love" might mean.

Salvation stems from God's unconditional love.

I agree here. Thanks for the good dialogue. So far I can say that I have learned a few things.

God loves us all unconditionally. Not taht I didn't know this particular thing, I was just saying this in general.

[Hughes]

I agree. If God's love were unconditional, how could mercy be tempered with justice?

Where do you get the idea that mercy is tempered with justice?

[Hughes]

I may not be doing a very good job of making my thoughts very understandable. I'll give it another shot...

In my own mind, the fullness of God's love = the fullness of God's blessings. That is, we become one with Christ(John 17:21), who is one with the Father, and joint heirs with Christ(Romans 8:17). To be glorified together with the Father and Jesus Christ. Nothing held back.

Any blessing withheld is less than the fullness of His love...that is less than all that His love offers.

God's love for us is unconditional, but all that His love offers definately has conditions, so therefore, the fullness of His love has conditions.

Jesus' love of the House of Israel is apparent in His lamentations in Mathew 23, but that doesn't stop Him from letting them suffer the consequences of their own actions. The same as it is with us as individuals. He loves us unconditionally, but we will be judged by our own actions, and that judgment will determine which blessings will be given, and which blessings will be withheld. If one is not a partaker in all that God has to offer, then that one falls short of the fullness of God's love.

Do you think that the thief on the Cross next to Jesus received the fullness of God's blessings (according to how you laid it out)?

[Hughes]

Is Jesus the Father?

Of course not.

So, when Jesus said, today you will be with me, in paradise. Yes, that would be heaven.

How does that train of thought flow? Jesus is not the Father and Jesus had not yet ascened to His Father. This verse also seems to strike against the nicean trinitarian view as well. Why did Jesus have to ascend to His Father if He and His Father are one? (3 in one and one in 3)? THey whole distinct but not separate idea.

Jesus is one in essence with the Father, but separate in person. He didn't have to do anything. He ascended because that's where he wanted be.

First he was in Paradise, then the Earth.

Huh?

You disagree?

[paulpatter]

Where do you get the idea that mercy is tempered with justice?

". . .there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God" [underlining added] (Alma 42; D&C 88:40, quoted in BRM's Mormon Doctrine).

[Flyonthewall]

Do you think that the thief on the Cross next to Jesus received the fullness of God's blessings (according to how you laid it out)?

I cannot say what the thief's final judgment was, but the statement from Jesus to the thief did not promise the fullness of God's blessings, only that he would be with Jesus in Paradise that day.

We know that several days later, Jesus had not yet ascended to His Father. We also know that Jesus preached to spirits in prison(1 Peter 3:19). The theif, more than likely, was preached the gospel in Paradise, but nothing is recorded from there. Jesus offered the thief an opportunity. The record is silent on the outcome.