Is God's love conditional or unconditional?

[LeSellers]

Since, by your reasoning, God purposefully created imperfect beings, then he doesn't give these imperfect beings any chance to save themselves since reserves that capability only for Himself , and then damns these imperfect beings for being imperfect, it sounds like God isn't a very loving being. It sounds like He purposefully wants most of the children of Adam and Eve to be damned to Hell.

It's even worse than that.

Becasue the Calvinist God creates beings for no other purpose than to condemn them to hell (although He does, in their warped view of eternity, rescue a few of us for no other end than to to tell Him endlessly how great and marvelous He is) we are left to reason on the why of the creation in the first place.

Calvin's God must delight in the suffering of men. Not only are men's years few and full of misery (see Solomon on the matter), but even after their death, they find no respite from pain. Endlessly we will roast on a spit vainly wanting relief in a death that will not come. God has so decreed. He, on the other hand, watches us suffer so, and, the only conclusion possible is that He enjoys it. In fact, not only must He enjoy our agonies, He must need them for He determined this all in advance.

Those few whom He selected for "salvation" must also praise Him for His unending mercy, for they, too, see the sufferings of their brethren and know that, but for His caprice in choosing them, they'd be in the same fiery pit. And, who knows, if His caprice once saved them, is it possible that it could rebound and He fling them in along side us anyway?

So, on the one hand we have a Monster Who delights in, and secures by His own irrevocable decree, the agonizing suffering of billions of individuals when He could stop it on a whim, and, on the other, the same egomaniacal Monster Who demands His acolytes praise His mercy. If that is God, He deserves neither praise nor devotion. One sees a Voldemort, powerful beyond imagining, using his followers like cannon fodder or toothpicks, and taking delight in their losses.

The cognitive dissidence must wear them out, yet sing they must, lest they be deemed never saved in the first place.

Moreover, have you ever noticed that all they who find this "truth" are among the chosen? I have never seen anyone claim that this God of Calvin is the true God, but that he, himself, is destined for this Gehenna.

Lehi

[Deborah]

Hell is reserved for those who rejected God's unconditional love.

You mean like Mormons?

So what about those who've never heard of God?

[Hughes]

I am unfamiliar with any biblical teaching that says Grace is unconditional.

I'm unfamiliar with any biblical teaching that says Grace is conditional.

[Hughes]

I reject the NIV, it is a false bible.

Since middle english isn't spoken today, and "Dynamic Equivalence Translation" is the most accurate, of which the NIV is one. Of course if you want we can just refer to the Greek text.

[Hughes]

This is laughable. I have good works with my faith so I must be saved and you are wasting your time.

Works are not a result of salvation, I can find no were in the bible were it says taht. Works might be a result of faith and being born again, but being born again is not the same as being save. I reject eternal security to, As many times in the bible we are told that if we trun from taht which we know we will be damned as we crucify Christ a fresh.

Works aren't a result of salvation? Huh? So, in your beliefs, you have to do all your own cleaning up first before God accepts you? How does sin get cleaned up without the power of God working within your heart?

But, then you say that works might be a result of faith? You might be confused eh?

Biblically, there's not one difference between being born again and being saved. And I haven't even said that eternal security is true. All I've said is that we don't work for our salvation, it's a free gift.

See, Hughes, every LDS makes a covenant at bapstim to take upon us the name of CHrist and always remeber him. We have faith that we are saved and show that faith with our works. It is pointless for you to try and convert any LDS as we already beleive some of the same things you do. Such as Faith in Christ will lead to salvation.

That's cool. My deal is that I just moved to the SLC area, and have been astonished by the burdens that LDS people carry (with reference to obedience of all the rules). Seems that LDS church puts a lot of pressure on their followers, that God never intended. Further, the point of unconditional love is huge. It seems that LDS don't believe salvation is by grace alone, but only after "you do all you can do..."

The gospel Jesus taught had no such burden, "take my Yoke on you, my burden is light..." He does the work not us. The Spirit in us produces those good works. Our job is to let him. That's a huge difference with LDS teaching. Or so it seems to me.

[Hughes]

So God being omnipotent AND omniscient purposefully creates beings He knows will fail and will suffer for the eternites when it is completely within His power to not do so. Doesn't sound like His love is very unconditional. According to what you said above, God knowingly creates faulty beings when it is completely in His power to not do so and since He chooses not to do so, He then purposefully damns them to Hell and endless torment for the eternities when it's completely within His power to save them.

Since, by your reasoning, God purposefully created imperfect beings, then he doesn't give these imperfect beings any chance to save themselves since reserves that capability only for Himself , and then damns these imperfect beings for being imperfect, it sounds like God isn't a very loving being. It sounds like He purposefully wants most of the children of Adam and Eve to be damned to Hell.

Sorry Hughes, that makes no sense to me. Can you point out where I am wrong in my logic?

Your logic is faulty in this one sense. Purpose. What is the purpose of creation?

In your thinking the purpose is perfect beings like robots...

God could have created robots all day long. Woop tee doo... even we humans can now produce robots. Robots are boring and provide nothing in the form of relational or intellectual stimulation.

What was God's purpose in creation? It seems clear that his purpose was to create a people to share love and life with. To do that, he must create a free willed being, for to do anything less would be to create a robotic individual which isn't satisfactory at all.

So, while you criticize God for creating imperfection, he created perfect free willed beings in us. That perfect free will can choose him or not. There's nothing better than a love that is freely chosen. But, the difficulty of creating a free willed being is the choice of not loving the creator. If that choice wasn't there, then there wouldn't be free will now would there? No matter how powerful God is, or loving. That choice has to be there, for an authentic free willed Love to exist.

God's purpose was to create that love and share it with others. He did that, and those who don't wish to participate have that perfect choice. That's not to say that God doesn't hurt due to their choice. It's not to say that God doesn't do all he can to persuade those individuals. But alas in the final tally, it has to be a free choice.

If God were to force those individuals to love him against their will, that would be just as tormenting as hell. So, hell is what they choose, and what they wanted. Everyone has a choice.

[Hughes]

It's even worse than that.

Becasue the Calvinist God creates beings for no other purpose than to condemn them to hell (although He does, in their warped view of eternity, rescue a few of us for no other end than to to tell Him endlessly how great and marvelous He is) we are left to reason on the why of the creation in the first place.

Calvin's God must delight in the suffering of men. Not only are men's years few and full of misery (see Solomon on the matter), but even after their death, they find no respite from pain. Endlessly we will roast on a spit vainly wanting relief in a death that will not come. God has so decreed. He, on the other hand, watches us suffer so, and, the only conclusion possible is that He enjoys it. In fact, not only must He enjoy our agonies, He must need them for He determined this all in advance.

Those few whom He selected for "salvation" must also praise Him for His unending mercy, for they, too, see the sufferings of their brethren and know that, but for His caprice in choosing them, they'd be in the same fiery pit. And, who knows, if His caprice once saved them, is it possible that it could rebound and He fling them in along side us anyway?

So, on the one hand we have a Monster Who delights in, and secures by His own irrevocable decree, the agonizing suffering of billions of individuals when He could stop it on a whim, and, on the other, the same egomaniacal Monster Who demands His acolytes praise His mercy. If that is God, He deserves neither praise nor devotion. One sees a Voldemort, powerful beyond imagining, using his followers like cannon fodder or toothpicks, and taking delight in their losses.

The cognitive dissidence must wear them out, yet sing they must, lest they be deemed never saved in the first place.

Moreover, have you ever noticed that all they who find this "truth" are among the chosen? I have never seen anyone claim that this God of Calvin is the true God, but that he, himself, is destined for this Gehenna.

Lehi

Who is the God of Calvin? You know him?

The God I know hurts and cries when we hurt.

[Hughes]

You mean like Mormons?

So what about those who've never heard of God?

God loves all. Doesn't matter what we call ourselves.

Who hasn't heard of God? That's actually not possible. We are all born with an innate sense of our creator. Sure some ignore it or try to.

Bottom line. God is the judge. He judges based on how much truth each person knows and understands.

What happens to other people? I don't know. I'm not their judge.

[Deborah]

Who hasn't heard of God? That's actually not possible. We are all born with an innate sense of our creator. Sure some ignore it or try to.

You are kidding? Of course there are those who haven't heard of God. We are all born with the Light of Christ, but not necessarily knowing the source of that. There were whole nations that at one time did not know about God and there are likely still people in remote areas who don't.

What happens to other people? I don't know. I'm not their judge.

and yet you are here judging Mormons and telling us what we believe and then condemning us for what you say we believe.

[LeSellers]

Who is the God of Calvin? You know him?

The God I know hurts and cries when we hurt.

The God Calvin invented does not exist, so no, I do not (nor can anyone) "know" Him.

For information on Calvin's fictitious God, try here: The institutes of the Christian Religion. It's filled with logical fallacies and other errors, not least of which are circular reasoning, begging the question, and poisoning the well.

If He cried when you hurt, and the vast majority of humanity will end up in His Gehenna (by design), He'll be crying a lot. Yet that does not mean He does not need that suffering, as I described.

Lehi

[wonderingwhy]

"While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional." (Russell M. Nelson)

"You are constantly mindful of the Saviorâ??s atonement and rejoice in His unconditional love." (Russell M. Nelson)

The context of the first article does add clarification to the apparent contradiction in these two quotes. As you read the first article, notice that Elder Nelson talks a lot about blessings received through God's love. This is different than God's love. For example, toward the end of the article it states,

"Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditionalâ??predicated upon our obedience to eternal law."

The blessings are conditional; as opposed to God's love, which is unconditional (as stated in the second article). In the first article, it states,

"Does this mean the Lord does not love the sinner? Of course not. Divine love is infinite and universal. The Savior loves both saints and sinners."

So, to sum up, God loves us all unconditionally; however, our claim on His love for blessings is conditional.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Your logic is faulty in this one sense. Purpose. What is the purpose of creation?

In your thinking the purpose is perfect beings like robots...

God could have created robots all day long. Woop tee doo... even we humans can now produce robots. Robots are boring and provide nothing in the form of relational or intellectual stimulation.

This is the biggest straw man I have ever seen on this board. Good job Hughes.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'm unfamiliar with any biblical teaching that says Grace is conditional.

Your favorite verse of scripture in Eph2:8 does, for grace are you saved through faith.

"Through" denotes a condition. Can one be saved if they have no faith. Do you really want to argue that?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Since middle english isn't spoken today, and "Dynamic Equivalence Translation" is the most accurate, of which the NIV is one. Of course if you want we can just refer to the Greek text.

Please lets do that. As you know Grace in greek does not mean "free gift".

Courtesy of Wikipedia

"The New Testament word that is usually translated "grace" is in Greek charis (χαρις). which literally means "that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness".

Grace has conditions to it and that condition is Faith, and we know that faith with out works is dead.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You point is what? That if people don't "appear" to be following Jesus according to your way or understanding, then they must not be his?

Who said anything about "my understanding" of what people may be or may not be doing.

Is commiting adualtry a sin accourding to God? Yes or no?

If some one commits adaultry are they following Jesus? Yes or no?

If they are not following Jesus as they commited adualtry how then can one claim to be "God's"? This is really simple.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Works aren't a result of salvation? Huh? So, in your beliefs, you have to do all your own cleaning up first before God accepts you? How does sin get cleaned up without the power of God working within your heart?

But, then you say that works might be a result of faith? You might be confused eh?

Biblically, there's not one difference between being born again and being saved. And I haven't even said that eternal security is true. All I've said is that we don't work for our salvation, it's a free gift.

Nope they are not, can you find a single verse in the bible that say it is? Who ever said that you aren't cleaned up with out hte power of God. THe is exactly the point, we are forgiven of our sins through the power of God, there is no other way. If you confess Jesus and turn not from your old ways are you saved? That is right we msut first have faith and the nwe "repent" that is our work to do.

Were in the bible can I find a verse that "salvation is a free gift". I cannot find that. Paul is rather ambigious when he sais "free gift". Is that "free gift" the resurrection?

That's cool. My deal is that I just moved to the SLC area, and have been astonished by the burdens that LDS people carry (with reference to obedience of all the rules). Seems that LDS church puts a lot of pressure on their followers, that God never intended. Further, the point of unconditional love is huge. It seems that LDS don't believe salvation is by grace alone, but only after "you do all you can do..."

The gospel Jesus taught had no such burden, "take my Yoke on you, my burden is light..." He does the work not us. The Spirit in us produces those good works. Our job is to let him. That's a huge difference with LDS teaching. Or so it seems to me.

Burden huh? Are the commandments just suggestions? See we LDS take the commandment seriously and try as hard as we can to live them. We will fail but that is the beauty of the atonement we can repent and try again.

And we are saved after all we can do. What is it that we can do? Have faith. That is what we can do. Do you disagree?

BTW welcome to SLC were did you mover from?

[Hughes]

You are kidding? Of course there are those who haven't heard of God. We are all born with the Light of Christ, but not necessarily knowing the source of that. There were whole nations that at one time did not know about God and there are likely still people in remote areas who don't.

Not kidding at all. All people groups of the earth have a belief or religious idea, they all have a concept of God. How close they are to the truth is not at issue when it comes to God's Judgement, he does that based on their knowledge just as he does us. Not based on what we know or we think they should know.

and yet you are here judging Mormons and telling us what we believe and then condemning us for what you say we believe.

You feel that I've judged you? That certainly isn't my intention, I'm sorry you feel that way.

What I have stated is what appears to be the teach of the LDS church.

That God's love is conditional and salvation isn't by grace alone. Am I mistaken?

[Hughes]

The God Calvin invented does not exist, so no, I do not (nor can anyone) "know" Him.

For information on Calvin's fictitious God, try here: The institutes of the Christian Religion. It's filled with logical fallacies and other errors, not least of which are circular reasoning, begging the question, and poisoning the well.

If He cried when you hurt, and the vast majority of humanity will end up in His Gehenna (by design), He'll be crying a lot. Yet that does not mean He does not need that suffering, as I described.

Lehi

Further, it's not proved that he does need anything by your logic. And yes I agree that God is one that feels pain, and will forever on some level, but has decided it would be worth it to share his love with those willing to accept it.

[Hoops22]

The God Lds invented does not exist, so no, I do not (nor can anyone) "know" Him.

For information on Mormon's fictitious God, try here: www.lds.org . It's filled with logical fallacies and other errors, not least of which are circular reasoning, begging the question, and poisoning the well.

Hoops.

[Hughes]

Your favorite verse of scripture in Eph2:8 does, for grace are you saved through faith.

"Through" denotes a condition. Can one be saved if they have no faith. Do you really want to argue that?

The Conditions we are talking about in the context of that verse and LDS theology is the idea of "works" being necessary for salvation. As the Nephi verse said, "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

If you want to get nit picky and forget context, breathing is also a condition...

[Hughes]

Please lets do that. As you know Grace in greek does not mean "free gift".

Courtesy of Wikipedia

"The New Testament word that is usually translated "grace" is in Greek charis (χαρις). which literally means "that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness".

Grace has conditions to it and that condition is Faith, and we know that faith with out works is dead.

Notice: Ephesians 2:8,9 - "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ??and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ?? 9not by works, so that no one can boast." (NIV)

or KJV "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Hmmm.... you're trying to argue that "Charis" doesn't mean free gift. I don't think I'd argue against that, except the context of the verse does say plainly in both translations that God's salvation is a free gift.

Are you seriously saying that we earn our salvation through good works?

[Hughes]

Who said anything about "my understanding" of what people may be or may not be doing.

Is commiting adualtry a sin accourding to God? Yes or no?

If some one commits adaultry are they following Jesus? Yes or no?

If they are not following Jesus as they commited adualtry how then can one claim to be "God's"? This is really simple.

It's very simple. We're not saved by following rules and not sinning. We don't sin because of God's wondrous work in our hearts.

[Hughes]

Nope they are not, can you find a single verse in the bible that say it is? Who ever said that you aren't cleaned up with out hte power of God. THe is exactly the point, we are forgiven of our sins through the power of God, there is no other way. If you confess Jesus and turn not from your old ways are you saved? That is right we msut first have faith and the nwe "repent" that is our work to do.

Were in the bible can I find a verse that "salvation is a free gift". I cannot find that. Paul is rather ambigious when he sais "free gift". Is that "free gift" the resurrection?

Like I mentioned before, it's very clear in Ephesians 2:9.

Burden huh? Are the commandments just suggestions? See we LDS take the commandment seriously and try as hard as we can to live them. We will fail but that is the beauty of the atonement we can repent and try again.

And we are saved after all we can do. What is it that we can do? Have faith. That is what we can do. Do you disagree?

Yup. Disagree. I'm in agreement with the Biblical text. Which states very plainly that salvation is not by works or by following commandments, but by being connected to God directly, which can be done because all of our sins (past present and future) have been taken care of on the cross. Faith and repentance isn't a work by the way.

For example. Which commandments are you referring to?

BTW welcome to SLC were did you mover from?

I'm from the Seattle area... born and raised. Just got back from my honeymoon, and now am a permanent resident of this fine area.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The Conditions we are talking about in the context of that verse and LDS theology is the idea of "works" being necessary for salvation. As the Nephi verse said, "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

If you want to get nit picky and forget context, breathing is also a condition...

Well in the context of Nephi there is nothing in there that tells us exactly what "after all you can do" means. Is to have faith? Yes. Would you argue that? We cannot be perfect. We cannot keep all of the commandments and we will fail, but that doesn't mean that once we confess Jesus we just carry on with our lives as if we needn't worry about anything.

Thanks for the replies, I am sorry I gave a shot gun of repsonses I just kept finding things to respond to and they were more of an after thought.

Oh perhaps that is were the misunderstanding is comming from, we are both trying to figure out what each other beleives and are mistaking your beliefs for ours in the discussion.

My only point is that there is a condition to salvation even under your beliefs, and that condition is faith.

[Hughes]

Well in the context of Nephi there is nothing in there that tells us exactly what "after all you can do" means. Is to have faith? Yes. Would you argue that? We cannot be perfect. We cannot keep all of the commandments and we will fail, but that doesn't mean that once we confess Jesus we just carry on with our lives as if we needn't worry about anything.

Thanks for the replies, I am sorry I gave a shot gun of repsonses I just kept finding things to respond to and they were more of an after thought.

Oh perhaps that is were the misunderstanding is comming from, we are both trying to figure out what each other beleives and are mistaking your beliefs for ours in the discussion.

My only point is that there is a condition to salvation even under your beliefs, and that condition is faith.

In the context of salvation by works or not, there's no condition. Faith isn't a work nor could it be. As you have quoted in James, Faith without works is dead, therefore faith cannot be works.