A Limited Mesoamerican Geography, or Not?

[Sargon]

I voted yes, that the BoM events occurred in a limited geographical setting in Mesoamerica. I think the BoM itself argues for such a view, and I don't see Joseph Smith's statements about BoM geography to be authoritative in the least.

[e=mc2]

I voted yes, because in all the readings I have done in the Book of Mormon, it is the most internally consistent way to understand it.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I don't know how to vote. Careful readings of the Book of Mormon text make it perfectly clear that the events described happened in a very limited geographical area. Nothing in the book, in my opinion, makes it equally clear where that area was, though at this point Mesoamerica somewhere seems like the best candidate.

As a PhD student in history, I have in the past several years translated more than 2,000 pages of primary source material. As I've gone back and carefully worked through these texts in the writing of my thesis, I have discovered things in them which I never picked up on as a translator. In many cases, I've come to realise that I had previously been imposing my own assumptions upon the texts even when, taken together, they present a rather clear alternative picture. It makes perfect sense to me that Joseph Smith had a similar relationship to the Book of Mormon text.

[jwhitlock]

Yes, the limited geography scenario seems to be the most likely at this point with what we know.

Given the "line upon line" character of the gospel, I'm not at all surprised that assumptions concerning historical context will change over time.

[BCSpace]

Don't know about "as proposed by John Sorenson", but yes to an LGT.

[firepatch36]

I used to believe in the continental theory, but then read something in high school about how that made no sense and the LGT in mesoamerica is what was consistant with the BoM, and I haven't looked back since.

[e=mc2]

I don't know how to vote. Careful readings of the Book of Mormon text make it perfectly clear that the events described happened in a very limited geographical area. Nothing in the book, in my opinion, makes it equally clear where that area was, though at this point Mesoamerica somewhere seems like the best candidate.

As a PhD student in history, I have in the past several years translated more than 2,000 pages of primary source material. As I've gone back and carefully worked through these texts in the writing of my thesis, I have discovered things in them which I never picked up on as a translator. In many cases, I've come to realise that I had previously been imposing my own assumptions upon the texts even when, taken together, they present a rather clear alternative picture. It makes perfect sense to me that Joseph Smith had a similar relationship to the Book of Mormon text.

How utterly interesting! Thanks for sharing this insight.

[Anijen]

I voted yes because the BoM and Sorenson's theory coincide with each other. Other experts have agreed to about the same thing not exactly 100% w/Sorenson but probably close. It is also very likely that Joseph Smith would have agreed with it too due to his 1842 statements on that area.

It also seems the church' media and production staff agree because it would seem their movies are based in that tropical climate.

[e=mc2]

I voted yes because the BoM and Sorenson's theory coincide with each other. Other experts have agreed to about the same thing not exactly 100% w/Sorenson but probably close. It is also very likely that Joseph Smith would have agreed with it too due to his 1842 statements on that area.

It also seems the church' media and production staff agree because it would seem their movies are based in that tropical climate.

Good points, good points....... I also think that Brant Gardner's commentaries have added an interesting depth and dimension to it all as well.

[Anijen]

Good points, good points....... I also think that Brant Gardner's commentaries have added an interesting depth and dimension to it all as well.

Brant Gardner's six volume commentary will eventually become a huge staple of independent knowledge and will eventually become a classic as did Sorenson's Ancient Setting of the Book of Mormon did. I would not be surprised if Brother Gardner one day tells of certain times he has felt guided to write some of the things he did. It is a work of Magnus Opus achievement. I for one of the hundreds (literal) of the books I have purchased they will be placed in the shelve were I frequent the most. Enough blathering about that and I'm sure Brother Gardner would tell me enough and knock it off.

The Book of Mormon is still the Book to go to for the info and most of all for the Spirit. It is a road map, a lamp to our feet, a GPS unit all rolled up into one, in large it is the iron rod that leads us to the precious fruit where we can partake.

[e=mc2]

Brant Gardner's six volume commentary will eventually become a huge staple of independent knowledge and will eventually become a classic as did Sorenson's Ancient Setting of the Book of Mormon did. I would not be surprised if Brother Gardner one day tells of certain times he has felt guided to write some of the things he did. It is a work of Magnus Opus achievement. I for one of the hundreds (literal) of the books I have purchased they will be placed in the shelve were I frequent the most. Enough blathering about that and I'm sure Brother Gardner would tell me enough and knock it off.

The Book of Mormon is still the Book to go to for the info and most of all for the Spirit. It is a road map, a lamp to our feet, a GPS unit all rolled up into one in large it is the iron rod that leads us to the precious fruit where we can partake.

Yup, yup, yup, yup, and yup!

[Cold Steel]

I think Phyllis Olive is the only one who still believes that Moroni was a New Yorker.

It's a bit interesting, however, that this new idea of the Book of Mormon lands being in Peru is being introduced. From what I've read, I'm not at all convinced the Nephi Project is on the right track. Has anyone reviewed the Peru theory yet?

[Anijen]

I think Phyllis Olive is the only one who still believes that Moroni was a New Yorker.

It's a bit interesting, however, that this new idea of the Book of Mormon lands being in Peru is being introduced. From what I've read, I'm not at all convinced the Nephi Project is on the right track. Has anyone reviewed the Peru theory yet?

I have read a little about it. The problems IIRC is the civilization does not match the time period of the BoM and the geography has tremendous holes as far as comparing with the BoM. Perhaps someone with far better knowledge of the Nephi Project can answer it better. I know its very difficult to let go of something someone has put so much time into but I think they need to go back to the drawing board and look at it again and try with a fresh set of eyes. Don't get me wrong George Potter and company have did some great work but I think they err on the Peru thing.

[Freedom]

I used my electronic data base and searched for all the geographical words such as north south east west, city names and so forth. From this I created by own geography and discovered just how much Sorensen is guessing at his work. But I think he acknowledges as much. Nevertheless, the cities are clearly very close together.

[Anijen]

I used my electronic data base and searched for all the geographical words such as north south east west, city names and so forth. From this I created by own geography and discovered just how much Sorensen is guessing at his work. But I think he acknowledges as much. Nevertheless, the cities are clearly very close together.

I do not think Sorenson is guessing but using a skill of deductive reasoning. He also included besides North South East or West, up or down, he used rivers and all sorts of topography, just adding in cardinal directions is like the old acronym GIGO and and that is what you got. Besides I believe it was Larry Paulson who has a great paper on Cardinal Directions and how they were different than what we think they to are.'

EG, the plus sign with N being on top is not how they used it but more like an X sign and the space (not the line) would be N,S,E,W.

Edited to add, I think there has to be a certain amount of speculation in all this, it isn't a hard science field (hard science as in math and a soft science would be psychology).

[cinepro]

It should probably be noted that even the "Limited Geography Theory" is stretched to account for certain events, such as Moroni burying the plates in New York. So the LGT basically says "Book of Mormon events occurred in a limited section of Central America, except for the ones that didn't." Which pretty much describes the Hemispherical Geography Theory as well. It's not an either/or; it's a matter of degree, and which ways we're willing to stretch and bend our reading of the text and the statements of latter-day Prophets.

The question isn't whether or not events occurred in a large area or small, but which events we are willing to stretch the geography for, and which statements of Joseph Smith we are willing to credit or discount.

[Anijen]

It should probably be noted that even the "Limited Geography Theory" is stretched to account for certain events, such as Moroni burying the plates in New York. So the LGT basically says "Book of Mormon events occurred in a limited section of Central America, except for the ones that didn't." Which pretty much describes the Hemispherical Geography Theory as well. It's not an either/or; it's a matter of degree, and which ways we're willing to stretch and bend our reading of the text and the statements of latter-day Prophets.

The question isn't whether or not events occurred in a large area or small, but which events we are willing to stretch the geography for, and which statements of Joseph Smith we are willing to credit or discount.

The BoM events mainly were in the LGT. As far as the plates being buried in New York there is no mystery, Moroni walked from Mesoamerica to upstate NY and buried the plates there. He had 40 years after the last battle, plenty of time.

[cinepro]

The BoM events mainly were in the LGT. As far as the plates being buried in New York there is no mystery, Moroni walked from Mesoamerica to upstate NY and buried the plates there. He had 40 years after the last battle, plenty of time.

I guess the greatest mystery would be what Angel Moroni said when he found out the plates and U&T weren't going to be used much for the translation process in the end.

[Anijen]

I guess the greatest mystery would be what Angel Moroni said when he found out the plates and U&T weren't going to be used much for the translation process in the end.

LOL "Man I carried these this far and you hardly used em..."

It least they were a catalyst to the translation process. When Joseph claims he translated them by the gift and power of God he wasn't joking.

[Sevenbak]

The BoM events mainly were in the LGT. As far as the plates being buried in New York there is no mystery, Moroni walked from Mesoamerica to upstate NY and buried the plates there. He had 40 years after the last battle, plenty of time.

I guess I'm in the minority that believe in the Joseph Smith model.

While the majority of the events did indeed happen in and around Central America, where they originated and spent the majority of the record, there are other factors to consider, including the statements of the Prophet.

Among which the "plains of the nephites" that include hundreds of thousands of mounds (10 thousand in Michigan alone), egyptian style mummies buried in caves in Kentucky, warfare artifacts discovered in and around NY state and heralded by the NY Governor as belonging to a long extinct race, different from the native Indians.

Then we have the record it'self, which includes multiple groups traveling to an exceedingly great distance to the land northward, Hagoth's ship taking a year to return, Nephi Lehi taking 6 years to return from there, the years spent fleeing the Lamanites and gathering all the people to Cumorah, etc.

I think we must be careful to put full faith and fellowship in modern theories that completely discount the statements of the prophets, regardless of how plausible they sound. That is, after all, how the world treats us. Let's not do it to ourselves.

Just my two cents. Bash away. I'm going to bed.

[Anijen]

I guess I'm in the minority that believe in the Joseph Smith model.

While the majority of the events did indeed happen in and around Central America, where they originated and spent the majority of the record, there are other factors to consider, including the statements of the Prophet.

Among which the "plains of the nephites" that include hundreds of thousands of mounds (10 thousand in Michigan alone), egyptian style mummies buried in caves in Kentucky, warfare artifacts discovered in and around NY state and heralded by the NY Governor as belonging to a long extinct race, different from the native Indians.

Then we have the record it'self, which includes multiple groups traveling to an exceedingly great distance to the land northward, Hagoth's ship taking a year to return, Nephi Lehi taking 6 years to return from there, the years spent fleeing the Lamanites and gathering all the people to Cumorah, etc.

I think we must be careful to put full faith and fellowship in modern theories that completely discount the statements of the prophets, regardless of how plausible they sound. That is, after all, how the world treats us. Let's not do it to ourselves.

Just my two cents. Bash away. I'm going to bed.

I respect your opinion and is very close to what I use to think. I just feel different now. I know what the JS model is but I don't like the title because Joseph himself changed his mind afterward, he said different things such as placing the BoM near Panama as he learned more. One of the reasons he said those things (as opinion) was because they were common thought of the time.

[Robspectre]

Is it possible...Both? I am not learn'ed, but I am a thinker'. I do believe it more than likely took place in central america for the most part, but the Moroni story didn't. I think the Hill he placed the plates in is the same as the one JS unearthed them. I could be wrong. I didn't answer yes or no....I think maybe both.

[Jason]

Mesoamerica makes the most sense to me, but I'm not married to it.

[Sargon]

Is it possible...Both? I am not learn'ed, but I am a thinker'. I do believe it more than likely took place in central america for the most part, but the Moroni story didn't. I think the Hill he placed the plates in is the same as the one JS unearthed them. I could be wrong. I didn't answer yes or no....I think maybe both.

FWIW, the limited Mesoamerica model allows for Moroni to have traveled north to New York at the end of life with the plates. This places the battles at Cumorah down in Mesoamerica.

[poulsenll]

Having spent an inordinate amount of time analyzing the geographical references in the text of the Book of Mormon, I have come to the conclusion that the Nephites ranged over an area much larger than that suggested by Sorensonâ??s LGT. However, although they may have ranged over a larger area, the actual area of occupation was probably always somewhat limited. As demonstrated by the archeological record, most cultures remained in a limited area with a few exceptions.

Brant Gardnerâ??s analysis of the text , as presented last summer at the Fair Conference,

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/20...ta-Message.html

strongly supports the concept that Mormon had a specific purpose and outline in mind that determined the specific events he chose to draw from the massive amount of recorded history available to him. Mormon, himself, mentions that he will not include any of the records concerned with the Northern migration of either the Nephites or Lamanites. First and foremost, it was not to write a history of the inhabitants of the American Continents. As recorded on the opening page of the Book of Mormon, it was to present to the world a testimony of Jesus as the Christ and Savior of the world.

Attempts to fit all the data from the text to either model always results in problems. For instance, Sorensonâ??s attempt to place the location of Cumorah in his chosen limited area resulted in the choice of a location that was south of the seashore rather than west of the seashore as described in the book of Ether. Although the majority of the events Mormon chose to include occurred in a limited area, most likely in Mesoamerica, some of the events including the last battle were not within this immediate area.

Larry P