For those who felt deceived

[Abulafia]

Going back to the OP, and speaking entirely for myself, I think it's very probable I would have left the Church even without learning of the problems. There's something to be said of what I felt was a very "rote" and insular lifestyle and beliefs. It wasn't much different when I was a Catholic. Looking at the "big picture" religious exclusivism just didn't seem right to me. Or I should say, exclusive religious claims. That alone would have bothered me enough to not take it seriously. At one point I became a fan of Mahatma Gandhi, who held universalist ideas in spite of his strict Hindu heritage, and could see a wider application to "core" religious values, encapsulated in "do unto others....". While not a Christian, Gandhi adopted many of the teachings of Jesus, such as non-violence, and sayings like "an eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind". But beyond Gandhi I found the writings of Leo Tolstoy to be of much more value, and then eventually Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson's mind just disembowled any narrowness of mind I felt. "Question with boldness", he said, "even the existence of a god".

For the last two years of consistent activity (ending in 1987), and coupled with reading those vile apostate publications like Dialogue and Sunstone, this was a double whammy. Yet I didn't stop exploring Mormonism, trying to find a niche that could accommodate the growing disparity.

Do I regret my Mormon experience? I think I'm on record as always saying no. In fact, I still think it shapes who I am today to a large extent. Could I ever literally believe it again?

No chance.

I extracted the good, and consigned the rest to the garbage bin.

Hi Ray,

I read your post with great interest. I actually made a list of reasons to go and reasons to stay.(Probably still have that list somewhere)

On my reasons to go side, was the religious exclusivity and the subsequent elitism that I felt that it engendered in many of its members.

I still have recollections of being told that Mother Theresa of Calcutta wouldn't be going to the CK unless she became Mormon by Mormon baptism. It bothered me then, and it bothers me now.

I love Gandhi's universal attitude and his writings on Christianity and Jesus. Enshrined in Mormon belief is the idea that came from Paul that if there was anything good, true 'we seek after these things'.

Whilst appreciating that Daniel has had a completely different experience of Mormonism from many, more akin to that article of faith, mine was like yours.

Mary

[Daniel Peterson]

Again, I contend that you do not know what it would take to convince you that the church were not true. The fact it hasn't happened yet means there is no objective standard by which you could measure this.

.

That's a complete non sequitur

Unannounced of course.

We were talking about thresholds. I announced none.

I can assure you that the hypothetical I mentioned would be more than enough, well past the threshold.

Why do I feel as if I've entered an episode of the Twilight Zone?

HTh, I think we're talking two different languages. Trouble is, I'm not that interested.

[beastie]

I don't mind backtracking a little if it means I don't have to see you using your new book as a tool against religion all the time.

Since the only venue in which you and I interact is expressly devoted to discussing religion, if and when you see me quoting from the book, it will undoubtedly be in the context of religion. Of course, since the phenomenon is universal, it can apply to both critic and believer.

I'll just sit back and relax now while Pahoran rushes in to chastise you for believing you know my thoughts better than I do.

And yes, of course that was a joke.

[why me]

When a rationalization can just as easily be applied to both sides of the equation, it's worthless in differentiating between the two claims. IOW, the fundamentalist, being quizzed about your testimony, could reply:

"I cannot say what this man was feeling and why he was feeling it."

Moreover, the claims of whatever fundamentalist group she adheres to obviously makes sense to her - just as the LDS restoration story makes sense to you.

I also don't understand why you find the witness stories so amazing. There are tons of people who insist they've been kidnapped by aliens and probed, and yet can produce no evidence of this fact. Do you find this amazing as well?

I am afraid that you are belittling the people involved. We have at least 13 people in on the fraud, plus Sidney if one wishes to include him. Now when we take the history of these people and what happened to them in relation to the lds church and still discover that none gave it up, we need to be amazed. Now of course, the other side of the coin is that it wasn't a fraud at all. And then, it would all make sense why none gave it up.

[Honorentheos]

.

That's a complete non sequitur...HTh, I think we're talking two different languages.

Since every response I have received from you and Pahoran has used the concept that I assert you do not have exclusive access to what you "think", currently I have to agree with you.

That you think the above is a non sequitur regarding the externally of the action we are talking about with real world consequences also supports this. I don't think we are talking about the application of preference, as I give your belief in the LDS church too much credit for that. I would hope that you sincerely believe. If so, there are many things involved with this that not only out-weigh what a person thinks, but extend significantly beyond their ability to have complete control as if they were picking a flavor of ice cream. Perhaps the most universal example I could give is it is no different than a person who "thinks" they know how they will act in combat. Until they have been in combat, they really don't know.

Ironically, in the above example it is training that kicks in to force a person to act automatically despite the extreme human reactions taking place. In this case, I suspect your training is not to embrace counter-LDS evidence. But again, I don't know.

And neither do you until it happens.

We were talking about thresholds. I announced none.

I can assure you that the hypothetical I mentioned would be more than enough, well past the threshold.

That would have been an interesting threshold to have in a thread that devolved into a discussion of individual responsibility. I took the "For example" as giving it a tongue-in-cheek flavor. But still, given the quick shifts between decrying personal attacks and giving them, accusing one of lacking a sense of humor and then not appreciating their jokes (taste aside of course), one can never be absolutely sure of anything being said.

On a serious note, though, it's interesting that a discussion regarding the role of conscious/subconscious brain functions is so difficult here. Yet on more atheistic/agnostic boards this subject is generally well understood. In many ways, this subject explains so much about us that perhaps is has come to take the place of traditional religion in explaining the world?

[Daniel Peterson]

Since every response I have received from you and Pahoran has used the concept that I assert you do not have exclusive access to what you "think", currently I have to agree with you.

I've never said what you attribute to me.

If so, there are many things involved with this that not only out-weigh what a person thinks, but extend significantly beyond their ability to have complete control as if they were picking a flavor of ice cream.

I'm well aware of this, and have even written on it several times.

Perhaps the most universal example I could give is it is no different than a person who "thinks" they know how they will act in combat. Until they have been in combat, they really don't know.

Obviously.

Ironically, in the above example it is training that kicks in to force a person to act automatically despite the extreme human reactions taking place. In this case, I suspect your training is not to embrace counter-LDS evidence. But again, I don't know.

That's correct.

And neither do you until it happens.

But, assuming I'm reasonably normal mentally and psychologically, I probably have a much better idea about that than a stranger like you or Amor-L would have.

one can never be absolutely sure of anything being said.

Again, obviously.

On a serious note, though, it's interesting that a discussion regarding the role of conscious/subconscious brain functions is so difficult here.

Who's having difficulty?

Yet on more atheistic/agnostic boards this subject is generally well understood.

I see no difference between theists and atheists/agnostics on this score.

In many ways, this subject explains so much about us that perhaps is has come to take the place of traditional religion in explaining the world?

They don't purport to explain the same things.

[beastie]

I am afraid that you are belittling the people involved. We have at least 13 people in on the fraud, plus Sidney if one wishes to include him. Now when we take the history of these people and what happened to them in relation to the lds church and still discover that none gave it up, we need to be amazed. Now of course, the other side of the coin is that it wasn't a fraud at all. And then, it would all make sense why none gave it up.

I'm afraid that the people who testify that they were abducted by aliens, and fervently believe they were abducted by aliens, could be insulted by your claim that it is "belittling" to use that as a comparison. Moreover, the numbers of people who testify that they've been abducted by aliens far overwhelms 13.

The point is that people fervently and sincerely often believe not only incorrect things, but have flawed memories. I'll have to irritate LoaP by coming back later with an extensive example from the book I'm reading.

[Anijen]

I'm afraid that the people who testify that they were abducted by aliens, and fervently believe they were abducted by aliens, could be insulted by your claim that it is "belittling" to use that as a comparison. Moreover, the numbers of people who testify that they've been abducted by aliens far overwhelms 13.

The point is that people fervently and sincerely often believe not only incorrect things, but have flawed memories. I'll have to irritate LoaP by coming back later with an extensive example from the book I'm reading.

Perhaps they were abducted by aliens or sincerely believe they were. But to me its apples and oranges.

[Amulek]

Moreover, the numbers of people who testify that they've been abducted by aliens far overwhelms 13.

That would be overwhelming numbers in groups of one though, right?

Do you still have overwhelming numbers on your side when comparing groups of eight or nine though? I have honestly never heard an alien abduction story where eight or nine people purported to be simultaneously abducted by the same alien at the same time. It would be fascinating to read their account(s) though, if you know of any.

[Daniel Peterson]

That would be overwhelming numbers in groups of one though, right?

Do you still have overwhelming numbers on your side when comparing groups of eight or nine though? I have honestly never heard an alien abduction story where eight or nine people purported to be simultaneously abducted by the same alien at the same time. It would be fascinating to read their account(s) though, if you know of any.

I, too, would be interested in seeing some cases of that type.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I'm afraid that the people who testify that they were abducted by aliens, and fervently believe they were abducted by aliens, could be insulted by your claim that it is "belittling" to use that as a comparison. Moreover, the numbers of people who testify that they've been abducted by aliens far overwhelms 13.

Comparing apples to aliens.

The point is that people fervently and sincerely often believe not only incorrect things, but have flawed memories. I'll have to irritate LoaP by coming back later with an extensive example from the book I'm reading.

My real irritation is in your pretending that wasn't your plan in reading it to begin with.

Do you still have overwhelming numbers on your side when comparing groups of eight or nine though? I have honestly never heard an alien abduction story where eight or nine people purported to be simultaneously abducted by the same alien at the same time. It would be fascinating to read their account(s) though, if you know of any.

Even then, circumstances would require some further looking, as well.

[Mortal Man]

Going back to the OP, and speaking entirely for myself,

How DARE you go back to the OP! Do our 50 pages of mindless rambling mean NOTHING to you?!? And WHERE do you get off speaking entirely for yourself? You appear OBLIVIOUS to the fact that we have NOT EVEN ESTABLISHED whether or not anyone here may or may not actually be CAPABLE of "speaking for themselves"...

(Am I doing this right?)

[Daniel Peterson]

we have NOT EVEN ESTABLISHED whether or not anyone here may or may not actually be CAPABLE of "speaking for themselves"...

Amen!

[Ray Agostini]

How DARE you go back to the OP! Do our 50 pages of mindless rambling mean NOTHING to you?!? And WHERE do you get off speaking entirely for yourself? You appear OBLIVIOUS to the fact that we have NOT EVEN ESTABLISHED whether or not anyone here may or may not actually be CAPABLE of "speaking for themselves"...

Confucius say, "Man who post on MAD end up singing loony tune".

[beastie]

My real irritation is in your pretending that wasn't your plan in reading it to begin with.

It wasnâ??t my plan to begin with. I am extremely interested in the workings of the brain and human evolution, and have read many books on that subject. This is just one more in a long line. If and when I think information from any of those books is pertinent to whatever discussion Iâ??m involved in, Iâ??ll share it.

Now, seriously, where are those folks who are so outraged when someoneâ??s not allowed to speak for him/herself? Perhaps it is a selective outrage.

[beastie]

So, apparently alien abductions is "apples to oranges". Well, then, let's go with apples to apples - religious manifestation to religious manifestation. And you all think 13 is an impressive number? Try millions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Zeitoun

[Ray Agostini]

So, apparently alien abductions is "apples to oranges". Well, then, let's go with apples to apples - religious manifestation to religious manifestation. And you all think 13 is an impressive number? Try millions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Zeitoun

And yet another one to consider: Miraculous Medjugorje.

[talisyn]

I'm afraid that the people who testify that they were abducted by aliens, and fervently believe they were abducted by aliens, could be insulted by your claim that it is "belittling" to use that as a comparison. Moreover, the numbers of people who testify that they've been abducted by aliens far overwhelms 13.

The point is that people fervently and sincerely often believe not only incorrect things, but have flawed memories. I'll have to irritate LoaP by coming back later with an extensive example from the book I'm reading.

what makes you think what they experienced wasn't real? Real real, not just real to them?

[beastie]

what makes you think what they experienced wasn't real? Real real, not just real to them?

The lack of physical evidence, along with the improbability of an alien culture so advanced that they can travel through the vastness of space, and yet rely on such a primitive method of obtaining information about humans as "behind" probes.

(didn't realize a medical term would be edited out here)

[beastie]

And yet another one to consider: Miraculous Medjugorje.

Thanks, Ray.

Marian apparitions are numerous, and often witnessed by more than one person.

[talisyn]

The lack of physical evidence, along with the improbability of an alien culture so advanced that they can travel through the vastness of space, and yet rely on such a primitive method of obtaining information about humans as "behind" probes.

(didn't realize a medical term would be edited out here)

So what you're saying is you know everything there is to know about the universe, physics, interplanetary travel, and alien scientific methods.

Lol it's funny what things are edited and what isn't.

[beastie]

So what you're saying is you know everything there is to know about the universe, physics, interplanetary travel, and alien scientific methods.

Obviously not, but I suppose I can't prevent you from misinterpreting it that way.

However, if you think that alien abductions are actually probable, then you still have to deal with the myriad of other problematic eye-witness testimonies. Are you going to accept them all?

[Hamba Tuhan]

[Y]ou still have to deal with the myriad of other problematic eye-witness testimonies. Are you going to accept them all?

Nope. Just my own. I realise that I may not even really exist--I may actually just be a part of someone other being's crazy dream--but, barring such possibilities, I'm left with what I have personally seen and experienced and witnessed for myself.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Nope. Just my own. I realise that I may not even really exist--I may actually just be a part of someone other being's crazy dream--but, barring such possibilities, I'm left with what I have personally seen and experienced and witnessed for myself.

How delusional!

[ERayR]

Nope. Just my own. I realise that I may not even really exist--I may actually just be a part of someone other being's crazy dream--but, barring such possibilities, I'm left with what I have personally seen and experienced and witnessed for myself.

This life is only a test if it were a real life you would have been told where to go and what to do.