For those who felt deceived

[beastie]

Good grief you're a literalist.

Anyway, my reaction isn't only to Teancum's comment here -- did he mention Islam? no, and that should have been a clue to you -- but to similar posts and comments that I've been seeing for the past decade or more.

You italicized the word "every" for emphasis. I'm at loss at just what you are asserting anymore, since apparently paying attention to the emphasized word means I'm a literalist.

If you're not really claiming that someone, somewhere, has claimed that every religious believer claims a revealed testimony in the way Latter-day Saints commonly claim them, then what are you protesting? Because if it's not every, then it's just some, and I doubt you're protesting that idea.

[ERayR]

One of the incidents I remember most vividly from my mission in France is a discussion I had with a Catholic (of course) woman. She told me that one day she was sitting in Mass and suddenly a light kind of like the sun, only spiritual, filled the church and her soul, and she â??knewâ? she was on the right path.

Now, admittedly this isnâ??t using the words â??I know the Catholic church is the one true churchâ?, but as Teancum has already pointed out, for all intents and purposes this is what it meant to this woman. In addition, many LDS not only view equivalent experiences as â??testimoniesâ?, theyâ??re actually taught to view such experiences as testimonies. IOW, even if you canâ??t get God to directly answer your prayer â??is the LDS church the one true churchâ?, if you have an experience like the Catholic lady did in the LDS chapel, youâ??re taught to view that as a â??testimonyâ?. So it seems only fair to give that same allowance to Catholics.

From an article I remember reading years ago:

I Wanted a Burning Bush

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoi..._&hideNav=1

When I first began struggling with doubts, I talked to various people in my ward about it â?? mostly sisters. I would often ask them how they â??knowâ? the church is true, or JS is a prophet. I was surprised by how often they gave the vague sort of stories contained in this Ensign article. Yes, there are some Mormons who have a singular â??testimonial eventâ? like I did â?? but I think there are probably just as many who have not, and yet still believe they have a testimony due to nonburning bush experiences â?? just like Catholics and so many others.

I do not claim to have a burning bush experience but I think my experience is much better. It is a line upon line experience with acalm feeling of inner peace.

[Daniel Peterson]

Some have asserted that personal testimonies (and the seeking of them) in something like the Mormon sense are exceedingly common among religious believers worldwide -- I've often seen Islam cited to illustrate this, which, since I'm an Islamicist, has caught my interest -- and, indeed, virtually the rule. My own studies in the history of Islam and of religions generally suggest that they're something of an exception, and that there are few if any religions, worldwide, in which they play the role that they play in Mormonism.

[ERayR]

So you don't think Billy Graham would claim that what he preaches is the truth and the only true way to God. You think he would think your testimony of JS valid? Does your faith trump his? Really is that not what this is about? LDS believe that their testimony and the way they say and claim it, which seems more cultural and a thing of tradition than it does doctrinally mandated, is superior and others is inferior. When a person goes to an baptist meeting and the preacher preaches repentance and that person answers an alter call they typically do so because they believe they feel the holy ghost calling them to confess Christ, and this Christ is one of the reformation doctrine, not the LDS view. And they think it was God telling them to do this as much as someone who commits to be baptized after listening to the LDS missionaries.

Have you ever attended a meeting where the preacher gives an alter call? It is an interesting event. I can tell you that the spirit can be there as much as in an LDS meeting where I believe I have felt the spirit.

You really don't get it do you? It's not about being better than anyone else. No wonder you are having problems, you can't get over being egocentric.

[Jeff K.]

Ii am highly skeptical you would be so cavalier and haughty about this had you lost say a million dollars investing with Bernie Madoff. I have a suspicion you would be calling for his head.

I have lost almost that amount in the general downturn of the economy. I had the opportunity to invest in Madoff years ago, I certainly could have bought into the system, but no one could justify the types of returns demonstrated by Madoff. I am smart enough to know when something is too good, it usually is. I chose to pass. Sometimes in the past years I had thought that perhaps it was not good to let such an opportunity pass, it seems I was bright and lucky.

And yes, I chose and all those people who were ruined by him chose to overlook the real investment criteria. They chose.

[beastie]

Some have asserted that personal testimonies (and the seeking of them) in something like the Mormon sense are exceedingly common among religious believers worldwide -- I've often seen Islam cited to illustrate this, which, since I'm an Islamicist, has caught my interest -- and, indeed, virtually the rule. My own studies in the history of Islam and of religions generally suggest that they're something of an exception, and that there are few if any religions, worldwide, in which they play the role that they play in Mormonism.

So perhaps what you mean to protest is the idea that all religions (versus all â??religious believersâ?) are predicated on the idea of seeking out a â??personal testimonyâ?, or whatever terminology they may use.

Well, as Teancum pointed out, some of this is due to cultural and semantic differences. In some faiths the personal conversionary event is primary, and sought out. This is the case in many Baptist or Pentecostal faiths. In other faiths, the personal conversionary event is not as stressed as much as simple faith, but it seems that even in those faiths members experience events that, if experienced in the LDS context, would definitely count as a â??testimonyâ?. So while â??seeking outâ? a personal conversionary event couched in terms of a numinous event may not be universal in all religions, the numinous experience that is interpreted as a validation of religious belief probably occurs in all forms of religion. So part of what may differentiate these experiences is what oneâ??s religion actually teaches about what those experiences actually mean, rather than the experiences themselves.

For those who tell themselves that while believers in other faiths may experience spiritual events, those events would pale in comparison to what LDS experience, the fact is that you have absolutely no way of knowing that. In fact, the exact reverse may be true. By definition, the numinous event is entirely subjective and personal and not available for legitimate comparison.

[Deborah]

If I may ask, what was it about your Mormonism experience that was so much more than your other spiritual experiences?

Besides the typical answers to prayers and feelings of comfort in a very volatile home life, most of my experiences prior to finding the church were more general and had to do with confirmation of God and the Bible, but also confirmation that what the church I was attending was teaching about the Godhead wasn't correct. I believed without doubt in God and the scriptures, but no one had ever told me about the spirit so it wasn't until later that I recognized that I knew these things by the spirit. As I look back I can see all the little things that happened that led me to the LDS church. Once I found the church it was just the most assured confirmation that this is what I had been looking for that I have ever had; and I didn't know a thing about the church at that time. Once I heard the first missionary lesson I was ready to be baptised because I realized this is what I had already concluded on my own. But faith always requires on-going effort and happily the more I have studied the stronger the spiritual confirmation has been.

And yes, Beastie, I can say with certainty that my experiences prior to finding the church have paled in comparison to the LDS church. I can also testify that no one really ever taught me to pray or to look for and expect spiritual experiences prior to finding the church. I had to discover those things on my own.

[beastie]

And yes, Beastie, I can say with certainty that my experiences prior to finding the church have paled in comparison to the LDS church. I can also testify that no one really ever taught me to pray or to look for and expect spiritual experiences prior to finding the church. I had to discover those things on my own.

Of course you can compare your own experiences, but you cannot compare your experiences to anyone else's.

What religion where you raised in, that no one ever taught you to pray or to look for spiritual experiences?

[Deborah]

What religion where you raised in, that no one ever taught you to pray or to look for spiritual experiences?

I wasn't raised in any religion. I found it on my own and chose to go to a church when I was in high school. But even there they never talked about a confirmation of the spirit. They just expected you to believe what was taught.

[beastie]

I wasn't raised in any religion. I found it on my own and chose to go to a church when I was in high school. But even there they never talked about a confirmation of the spirit. They just expected you to believe what was taught.

What church did you attend? Were you active for a lengthy period of time? Did you actually take lessons in some form as a potential convert?

[Jeff K.]

beastie I would not be too quick on the pop psychology or attempts to corner someone. Conversions like personalities tend to follow their own unique paths. Attempting to clarify or reduce someone's ability to convert based on what you perceive their amount of exposure is questionable. Better to understand that regardless the level of exposure a commitment was made and as the knowledge increased the commitment remained and even grew. It is akin to asking how long it took to learn fractions. The ability to solve them remains regardless of the amount of time required to learn how.

[Scottie]

Besides the typical answers to prayers and feelings of comfort in a very volatile home life, most of my experiences prior to finding the church were more general and had to do with confirmation of God and the Bible, but also confirmation that what the church I was attending was teaching about the Godhead wasn't correct. I believed without doubt in God and the scriptures, but no one had ever told me about the spirit so it wasn't until later that I recognized that I knew these things by the spirit. As I look back I can see all the little things that happened that led me to the LDS church. Once I found the church it was just the most assured confirmation that this is what I had been looking for that I have ever had; and I didn't know a thing about the church at that time. Once I heard the first missionary lesson I was ready to be baptised because I realized this is what I had already concluded on my own. But faith always requires on-going effort and happily the more I have studied the stronger the spiritual confirmation has been.

And yes, Beastie, I can say with certainty that my experiences prior to finding the church have paled in comparison to the LDS church. I can also testify that no one really ever taught me to pray or to look for and expect spiritual experiences prior to finding the church. I had to discover those things on my own.

Thanks for sharing that.

[Mortal Man]

Generally those who claim deception usually deceive themselves and cast about for another target.

The church doesn't deceive people, people's expectations usually are usually the stumbling block. They often expect too much of others and too little of themselves. They justify their anger at this poor ratio by blaming "the other side" rather than understanding their own choice.

I have in the best failed to achieve something and sought to blame others because I could not achieve it. But I was young then and immature. After you grow up, you start understanding, sometimes ruefully, where you made your mistakes and how you might have done better. It is the static people that can't let go and hold on to the blame of others. To some its their only comfort.

Do you deny that the church has taught its youth that birds and little streams can talk and that popcorn balls come from apricot trees?

[Daniel Peterson]

beastie I would not be too quick on the pop psychology or attempts to corner someone.

Amen and hallelujah!

[beastie]

beastie I would not be too quick on the pop psychology or attempts to corner someone. Conversions like personalities tend to follow their own unique paths. Attempting to clarify or reduce someone's ability to convert based on what you perceive their amount of exposure is questionable. Better to understand that regardless the level of exposure a commitment was made and as the knowledge increased the commitment remained and even grew. It is akin to asking how long it took to learn fractions. The ability to solve them remains regardless of the amount of time required to learn how.

How in the world am I attempting pop psychology or attempting to corner someone? I'm simply asking more details about her contact with the church, which is exactly what LDS would do if someone made generalizations about their faith. In fact, I've seen LDS do it more than once, and have experienced it more than once.

BTW, Deborah and others picked at my story, even stating it was "full of holes", and I don't recall you chastising them - in fact, you were one of them. You object to my simple, and few, questions regarding Deborah's exposure, and yet you felt free to state that that I had a moral and ethical failing in how I investigated the LDS church. So weren't you attempting to "clarify or reduce my ability to convert" based on what YOU perceived my amount of exposure to be?????

And Daniel, since you're cheerleading his comments, perhaps you can explain how asking someone about their amount of contact with a religion prior to generalizing about it is "pop psychology" or "cornering" someone.

Deborah, are these questions cornering you? Will your answers corner you in some way? I thought they were reasonable and straight forward.

[Teancum]

All of which I'm perfectly fine with.

That wasn't my point, either.

Could you then please clarify your point. They I took it was, that at least you were implying, that the LDS claim to a witness of the spirit was and is superior than the of other faiths, or in fact that those of other faiths make no similar claims to such spiritual experiences.

[Teancum]

I don't doubt that there are spiritual experiences out there. I know that there are, and I'm very grateful for it.

I simply resist the suggestion that every religious believer claims a revealed testimony in the way Latter-day Saints commonly claim them. It's not true.

Every? If I implied every I did not mean that. Not every LDS person claims a testimony. The simple point is that millions upon million of other devout believers in other faiths claim spiritual experiences that convince them they are as right about what they believe as the LDS believer. Deborah takes the position that the witness beastie got was the correct one. That is told her the absolute truth and that beastie should have stuck with those initial feelings. Would Deborah have the same level of respect for the Catholic woman Beastie mentioned above if Deborah was trying to convince the Catholic woman to become LDS. Would Deborah tell this woman to rely on the feelings she had that told her Catholicism was the right path? Or would she hope that the Catholic woman had a superior witness that convinced her the LDS Church was the right path?

My question really then is do you Dr. Peterson, view the LDS spiritual experience and claimed witness superior to those had by believers in other faiths? Is it more valid, not to be questioned, not to be subjected to testing against information and knowledge that may come to light after one may have experienced it? Does it over ride all other input in the process of deciding what is and is not truth?

[Teancum]

Why would I care what Billy Graham thinks about my testimony of Joseph Smith? I know what I know and of course I believe it is the way that I claim it to be. If not why would I be where I am. And my testimony is not a cultural thing since I did not grow up in the church and had no idea of the cultural background before I received the spiritual confirmation I did. If I didn't believe what I believe is right I'd be somewhere else. Duh! Others are free to believe what they want and I don't question that many people have spiritual experiences which answer their search at the time they have their experience. I had spiritual experiences before I joined the church. Why wouldn't other people?

THis is why I point out the such experiences are subjective. Your comments further illustrate you think the LDS witness is superior to other experiences non LDS have about their faith.And really I am ok with that for you and for me and for anyone else. But I am also OK that beastie found that perhaps her experience was not what she understood it to be and that based on information that she came upon later. You however insist that is was her initial experience that trumps everything else. Don't you really think that is rather presumptuous if not arrogant.Also, even though you did not grow up in the Church the missionaries taught you that you would have a spiritual witness that testified that the Church is true. As a member that has been reinforced that is should not be questioned, that it is the way to know for certain spiritual things. The simple fact that there is a meeting 12 times a year in LDS services that focuses on this testimony attests to this fact.

I am sorry but the way my life has turned out is all the empirical evidence that I need to show that it works. I am sure that I am not alone.

And that is wonderful. I am happy for you. I like my LDS life pretty well also. In fact this is one of the main reasons I stay even though I view things a bit differently than I used to.But a happy Baptist could say the same thing.

[Teancum]

You really don't get it do you? It's not about being better than anyone else. No wonder you are having problems, you can't get over being egocentric.

Ah

A personal attack.

Not sure where that one came from.

[Deborah]

What church did you attend? Were you active for a lengthy period of time? Did you actually take lessons in some form as a potential convert?

Not that I see what this has to do with anything, but I was attending a regular non-denominational Protestant church and was in fact taking classes taught by the Pastor to become an official member of that church. The idea of a spiritual conversion was never mentioned. Everyone else seemed to be accepting what was taught but as a result I realized this made no sense to me (the lesson on the nature of God and the Trinity). I had been reading the Bible for well over a year and studying different faiths and I said to myself that I didn't think any church like that in the Bible existed. It was soon after I came to that realization that I was invited to the LDS church by a classmate who was making a general invitation to what they called back then a Bring-a-Friend dance for the youth.

Years later in North Carolina, the Bible Belt, I had a neighbor and friend who was not LDS. We discussed religion quite often. I remember when she came and told me that she had been Born Again. She had found a local evangelical church and joined there. She was born again to Jesus Christ however, not the church itself. We still talked about religion and she came home one Sunday and was very angry because her SS class was talking about the Mormons and how they weren't Christian. She stood up and defended us in the class. She had had the missionary lessons many years before but she found Christ through her EV church and I was happy for her. Ironically she had a friend visiting one time who was on her way to SLC for a convention. I was visiting my friend and kept insisting to her friend that she just had to visit Temple Square. She kept saying she didn't know if they would have time. Well she did visit Temple Square and she and her husband had the missionary lessons and were baptised soon after. So my friend who was not LDS was the means of teaching her own church something about LDS belief and of bringing another family into the church.

In recent years I attended regularly the singles group at a very large Methodist church in NE. I attended these activities for about 10 years and participated in their weekly discussion groups, some which were of a religious nature. So I am very familiar with how non-LDS view their testimonies. And no it is not the same way we view ours. They have a testimony of Jesus Christ and that is about it. They follow the teachings of their pastors but when you discuss certain things like the nature of God they really don't know what it is their church teaches about this. They don't have a testimony that their church is the only true church, but they do have a great organization and reach out to the community and attract people by their programs. I met many good and faithful people who found great comfort and associations in their church. Many of the singles were from other churches in the area as all were invited. But they did not have the kind of experience of confirmation of the Spirit that we expect in the LDS church.

Is that enough credibility for you?

[Deborah]

even though you did not grow up in the Church the missionaries taught you that you would have a spiritual witness that testified that the Church is true. As a member that has been reinforced that is should not be questioned, that it is the way to know for certain spiritual things.

First of all my spiritual witness came before I had my first missionary lesson. You obviously are not very familiar with the members of the church if you think that we do not question anything, but yes the spiritual witness does trump everything else. Otherwise we would be left to wander like everyone else who reads something and goes away with a different interpretation. It is the Spirit which enables one to discern truth. Having the Spirit witness such implies that study is necessary. As Oliver Cowdery was told in D&C 9:

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

[gmormon]

Not that I see what this has to do with anything, but I was attending a regular non-denominational Protestant church and was in fact taking classes taught by the Pastor to become an official member of that church. The idea of a spiritual conversion was never mentioned. Everyone else seemed to be accepting what was taught but as a result I realized this made no sense to me (the lesson on the nature of God and the Trinity). I had been reading the Bible for well over a year and studying different faiths and I said to myself that I didn't think any church like that in the Bible existed. It was soon after I came to that realization that I was invited to the LDS church by a classmate who was making a general invitation to what they called back then a Bring-a-Friend dance for the youth.

Years later in North Carolina, the Bible Belt, I had a neighbor and friend who was not LDS. We discussed religion quite often. I remember when she came and told me that she had been Born Again. She had found a local evangelical church and joined there. She was born again to Jesus Christ however, not the church itself. We still talked about religion and she came home one Sunday and was very angry because her SS class was talking about the Mormons and how they weren't Christian. She stood up and defended us in the class. She had had the missionary lessons many years before but she found Christ through her EV church and I was happy for her. Ironically she had a friend visiting one time who was on her way to SLC for a convention. I was visiting my friend and kept insisting to her friend that she just had to visit Temple Square. She kept saying she didn't know if they would have time. Well she did visit Temple Square and she and her husband had the missionary lessons and were baptised soon after. So my friend who was not LDS was the means of teaching her own church something about LDS belief and of bringing another family into the church.

In recent years I attended regularly the singles group at a very large Methodist church in NE. I attended these activities for about 10 years and participated in their weekly discussion groups, some which were of a religious nature. So I am very familiar with how non-LDS view their testimonies. And no it is not the same way we view ours. They have a testimony of Jesus Christ and that is about it. They follow the teachings of their pastors but when you discuss certain things like the nature of God they really don't know what it is their church teaches about this. They don't have a testimony that their church is the only true church, but they do have a great organization and reach out to the community and attract people by their programs. I met many good and faithful people who found great comfort and associations in their church. Many of the singles were from other churches in the area as all were invited. But they did not have the kind of experience of confirmation of the Spirit that we expect in the LDS church.

Is that enough credibility for you?

I believe !!!

Thanks Deborah for a beautiful testimony. I always enjoy reading your comments.

BTW I believe you now have the most replied to topic unless there are others I can't view and speaking of viewing I believe you are in the top ten (#6) of topics viewed

[Gervin]

re "cheerleading" comments - some folks like to cheerlead simply for the opportunity to put on a skirt and prance around.

[Teancum]

First of all my spiritual witness came before I had my first missionary lesson. You obviously are not very familiar with the members of the church if you think that we do not question anything, but yes the spiritual witness does trump everything else. Otherwise we would be left to wander like everyone else who reads something and goes away with a different interpretation. It is the Spirit which enables one to discern truth. Having the Spirit witness such implies that study is necessary. As Oliver Cowdery was told in D&C 9:

ummmm......well.......I am a member of the LDS Church. Fifth generation. Served mission, married in temple, served in just about every calling one can serve in on the ward level and a few on the stake level. Still active, still hold temple recommend.

Thanks you for confirming my points, btw. So do YOUR spiritual witnesses trump someone's of another faith? If their disagrees with yours what then?

[Deborah]

ummmm......well.......I am a member of the LDS Church. Fifth generation. Served mission, married in temple, served in just about every calling one can serve in on the ward level and a few on the stake level. Still active, still hold temple recommend.

Then I'm surprised you would make some of the comments you do.

So do YOUR spiritual witnesses trump someone's of another faith? If their disagrees with yours what then?

What another receives about his faith has nothing to do with me. I already told you about my friend who found her faith elsewhere and I was happy for her. She wasn't looking for the same thing I was. I was looking for the true church and found it. I don't know why anyone should be upset about how sure I am about my belief if they are really sure about what they believe. I further don't know why critics want to create such a wedge that they continue to position us against them when we ourselves don't do that.