For those who felt deceived

[ERayR]

Ah

A personal attack.

Not sure where that one came from.

Look at your post 1124. Its not about trumping anybody.

[ttribe]

Do you deny that the church has taught its youth that birds and little streams can talk and that popcorn balls come from apricot trees?

Okay...that was pretty funny.

[Teancum]

Then I'm surprised you would make some of the comments you do.

Why? Becasue I do not fit the LDS mold you think I should fit? Would you prefer I leave as beastie choose to do?

What another receives about his faith has nothing to do with me. I already told you about my friend who found her faith elsewhere and I was happy for her. She wasn't looking for the same thing I was. I was looking for the true church and found it.

You still are avoiding the issue that there are many out there who believe their church is as true as you think ours is.

I don't know why anyone should be upset about how sure I am about my belief if they are really sure about what they believe.

I am not upset at all. I am just discussing what I believe is a fascinating dynamic especially for the LDS view of testimony, truth and revelation.

I further don't know why critics want to create such a wedge that they continue to position us against them when we ourselves don't do that.

I do not understand your point.

Look at your post 1124. Its not about trumping anybody.

Sorry man. Still not following ya.

[beastie]

Not that I see what this has to do with anything, but I was attending a regular non-denominational Protestant church and was in fact taking classes taught by the Pastor to become an official member of that church. The idea of a spiritual conversion was never mentioned. Everyone else seemed to be accepting what was taught but as a result I realized this made no sense to me (the lesson on the nature of God and the Trinity). I had been reading the Bible for well over a year and studying different faiths and I said to myself that I didn't think any church like that in the Bible existed. It was soon after I came to that realization that I was invited to the LDS church by a classmate who was making a general invitation to what they called back then a Bring-a-Friend dance for the youth.

Years later in North Carolina, the Bible Belt, I had a neighbor and friend who was not LDS. We discussed religion quite often. I remember when she came and told me that she had been Born Again. She had found a local evangelical church and joined there. She was born again to Jesus Christ however, not the church itself. We still talked about religion and she came home one Sunday and was very angry because her SS class was talking about the Mormons and how they weren't Christian. She stood up and defended us in the class. She had had the missionary lessons many years before but she found Christ through her EV church and I was happy for her. Ironically she had a friend visiting one time who was on her way to SLC for a convention. I was visiting my friend and kept insisting to her friend that she just had to visit Temple Square. She kept saying she didn't know if they would have time. Well she did visit Temple Square and she and her husband had the missionary lessons and were baptised soon after. So my friend who was not LDS was the means of teaching her own church something about LDS belief and of bringing another family into the church.

In recent years I attended regularly the singles group at a very large Methodist church in NE. I attended these activities for about 10 years and participated in their weekly discussion groups, some which were of a religious nature. So I am very familiar with how non-LDS view their testimonies. And no it is not the same way we view ours. They have a testimony of Jesus Christ and that is about it. They follow the teachings of their pastors but when you discuss certain things like the nature of God they really don't know what it is their church teaches about this. They don't have a testimony that their church is the only true church, but they do have a great organization and reach out to the community and attract people by their programs. I met many good and faithful people who found great comfort and associations in their church. Many of the singles were from other churches in the area as all were invited. But they did not have the kind of experience of confirmation of the Spirit that we expect in the LDS church.

Is that enough credibility for you?

First, I want to make it clear that I wasn’t questioning your credibility. I just wanted more details to understand your point. You provided those details and it was very helpful. If I had wanted to question your credibility, I would have said something like “your story is full of holes.”

There are two items that need to be separated: the numinous event itself, and the understanding or interpretation of that numinous event.

Studies into numinous events have shown a remarkable similarity in descriptions that are consistent across various religions. Some of these states can be simulated through brain manipulation. Some of these common characteristics are a sense of union with the divine and/or the universe, a sense of dissolving of physical boundaries, the sense of a presence of “other” (normally identified as a divine being within the individual’s religious tradition), a sense of timelessness, as well as a feeling of “knowing” – IOW, the sensation of some knowledge being transmitting through the experience. I think that the research done into religious experiences in general, and numinous events in particular, makes a compelling case that these events sound quite similar despite various religious backgrounds.

Once the individual has experienced a numinous event, the next step is that the individual interprets or understands the event in some way, normally within the context of his/her religious background. So if the religious tradition is Baptist, the numinous event is interpreted as being ‘born again”, and a validation of Jesus as Savior. Since Baptists do not teach the idea of “one true church”, obviously it’s not going to be interpreted within that framework. But a Mormon could experience the exact same thing, and it would be interpreted as a validation of the church as “the one true church”.

To insist that numinous events of other faiths would only be equivalent to the LDS experience if believers attached the idea of “one true church” to that event is a form of stacking the deck. It’s the rough equivalent of claiming that unless the other believers refer to Moroni’s promise, it can’t be equivalent.

[Jeff K.]

ummmm......well.......I am a member of the LDS Church. Fifth generation. Served mission, married in temple, served in just about every calling one can serve in on the ward level and a few on the stake level. Still active, still hold temple recommend.

Thanks you for confirming my points, btw. So do YOUR spiritual witnesses trump someone's of another faith? If their disagrees with yours what then?

Does being "fifth generation" imbue you with some immunity to heresy or falsehood? I have always chuckled when even those who are active place the generational issue as some asset to their spiritual resume. We know this is a proper and good thing to do because all of Joseph Smith's surviving children returned to the church once they grew to adulthood).

Now here is my question. Did the spiritual witness of Elijah trump the witnesses of Baal?

Are works needed for a spiritual witness to be greater? What does that say of Christs crucifiction where no spiritual witness was made manifest to the followers of Roman gods?

[RubyHunter]

re "cheerleading" comments - some folks like to cheerlead simply for the opportunity to put on a skirt and prance around.

So, should I not be wearing the skirt?

I mean, I know it irks my wife and all...

[Ray Agostini]

Are works needed for a spiritual witness to be greater? What does that say of Christs crucifiction where no spiritual witness was made manifest to the followers of Roman gods?

Just a technical point here. There was a certain Centurion........

[cole]

This is a sincere question for those who left the church because you felt that the church hid something from you, or who advocate the church be more forthcoming about what you consider the negatives. Assuming you were able to learn these things sooner, what difference would it have made on whether you left the church or not. I don't see how it makes any difference if some of the things that turn you away from the church are learned earlier or later. Perhaps you can explain it.

It seems like ages since I have been on this website. I even went back and looked at my first post here. It's strange how much we change.

I haven't officially left the church. My name still resides on records. I haven't attended in almost 3 (maybe more?) years. So, much struggling I've done. I clung to a conversion I had while in a mental institution while hating the god who told me to stay LDS. I enjoyed being LDS, but only while I was in a position to be around friends that also were. When left alone my fears, my anger at God, my displacement became too real again, and I chose to date a non-lds guy with questions. I was lead here. My initial reason was to answer his questions. This site supplied them.

So, you're wondering what all this has to do with your question? This site opened my eyes to things in church history I had no knowledge of. I was raised LDS and many things brought up here were news to me. The church can't hide what is in plain sight, but it doesn't have to shine light on to it's non-doctrinal truths. I do admit to feeling deceived, but I also rationally know that it isn't the fault of the LDS church. Everything is right there, but only if I had cared to look before. I was too caught up in the other problems of my life to bother looking. For me, perhaps my leaving was only a matter of time. I don't think it would have mattered when I found out things, I think I would have walked away anyhow. I was having other problems with the doctrine, with the bible, with religion in general. I am a member of no faith now. I think I have seen too much to ever disbelieve in a god, but I also believed that nothing could shake my faith after God told me stay LDS. And I do still believe God told me to stay LDS. However, God isn't saying that to me anymore.

[gmormon]

So, should I not be wearing the skirt?

I mean, I know it irks my wife and all...

Maybe if you got your own it wouldn't bother her so much!

[ERayR]

It seems like ages since I have been on this website. I even went back and looked at my first post here. It's strange how much we change.

I haven't officially left the church. My name still resides on records. I haven't attended in almost 3 (maybe more?) years. So, much struggling I've done. I clung to a conversion I had while in a mental institution while hating the god who told me to stay LDS. I enjoyed being LDS, but only while I was in a position to be around friends that also were. When left alone my fears, my anger at God, my displacement became too real again, and I chose to date a non-lds guy with questions. I was lead here. My initial reason was to answer his questions. This site supplied them.

So, you're wondering what all this has to do with your question? This site opened my eyes to things in church history I had no knowledge of. I was raised LDS and many things brought up here were news to me. The church can't hide what is in plain sight, but it doesn't have to shine light on to it's non-doctrinal truths. I do admit to feeling deceived, but I also rationally know that it isn't the fault of the LDS church. Everything is right there, but only if I had cared to look before. I was too caught up in the other problems of my life to bother looking. For me, perhaps my leaving was only a matter of time. I don't think it would have mattered when I found out things, I think I would have walked away anyhow. I was having other problems with the doctrine, with the bible, with religion in general. I am a member of no faith now. I think I have seen too much to ever disbelieve in a god, but I also believed that nothing could shake my faith after God told me stay LDS. And I do still believe God told me to stay LDS. However, God isn't saying that to me anymore.

I am truely sorry for the problems in your life. The thing that caught my eye was that you said God told you to stay LDS but he isn't saying that anymore. I think that God answers our prayers but when we continue to ignore him he quits and leaves us to do what we want. Kind of like Martin Harris and the lost 116 pages of manuscript. Once we go our own way we are doomed to suffer the consequences of our actions.

I sincerely hope you can work through your problems.

[Deborah]

I sincerely hope you can work through your problems.

My sentiments as well.

[HiJolly]

beastie, you've made some interesting comments that I'd like to respond to.

There are two items that need to be separated: the numinous event itself, and the understanding or interpretation of that numinous event.

Right.

Men are not moved by events but by their interpretations.

-- The Stoic Epictetus

Studies into numinous events have shown a remarkable similarity in descriptions that are consistent across various religions. Some of these states can be simulated through brain manipulation. Some of these common characteristics are a sense of union with the divine and/or the universe, a sense of dissolving of physical boundaries, the sense of a presence of â??otherâ? (normally identified as a divine being within the individualâ??s religious tradition), a sense of timelessness, as well as a feeling of â??knowingâ? â?? IOW, the sensation of some knowledge being transmitting through the experience. I think that the research done into religious experiences in general, and numinous events in particular, makes a compelling case that these events sound quite similar despite various religious backgrounds.

Yes. I bought a copy of William James' The Varieties of Religious Experience some thirty years ago. Need to re-read it.

Once the individual has experienced a numinous event, the next step is that the individual interprets or understands the event in some way, normally within the context of his/her religious background. So if the religious tradition is Baptist, the numinous event is interpreted as being â??born againâ?, and a validation of Jesus as Savior. Since Baptists do not teach the idea of â??one true churchâ?, obviously itâ??s not going to be interpreted within that framework. But a Mormon could experience the exact same thing, and it would be interpreted as a validation of the church as â??the one true churchâ?.

Exactly my experience when I received the "baptism of Fire and of the Holy Ghost". It took me some 20 years before I engaged the experience on its own terms. ...and I'm still learning from it as I contemplate the experience and myself.

I had an experience once that in LDS parlance would be "pure intelligence" (I think - funny how such terminology within the Church, even, can be so completely loose) where I could not analytically 'think' about it until I converted the experience from 'emotion/feelings' to 'thought' --- which thought was in English, as a native English speaker. In doing so, I instantly gained the ability to analyze & digest the revelation, but I also 'lost' a degree of accuracy and depth in the information conveyed. It began to open my eyes in how prophets do what they do. It's a tough job.

To insist that numinous events of other faiths would only be equivalent to the LDS experience if believers attached the idea of â??one true churchâ? to that event is a form of stacking the deck. Itâ??s the rough equivalent of claiming that unless the other believers refer to Moroniâ??s promise, it canâ??t be equivalent.

I completely agree. Context is everything -- even in revelation.

HiJolly

[Teancum]

Does being "fifth generation" imbue you with some immunity to heresy or falsehood?

No it does not. Did I imply it did? I was simply letting Deborah know I was a member and had ancestry tied to the Church since she assumed I was not LDS.

I have always chuckled

You seem easily amused. Glad I could assist.

when even those who are active place the generational issue as some asset to their spiritual resume.

You really need to climb down off your high horse and lighten up.

We know this is a proper and good thing to do because all of Joseph Smith's surviving children returned to the church once they grew to adulthood).

Joseph's children were part of the RLDS, a group who believed the Utah Church was in error and apostasy.

Now here is my question. Did the spiritual witness of Elijah trump the witnesses of Baal?

According to the Bible Elijah produced a physical witness. Tangible evidence. Spiritual witnesses lack tangible evidence for everyone but the recipient.

Thus this example is not applicable.

Are works needed for a spiritual witness to be greater? What does that say of Christs crucifiction where no spiritual witness was made manifest to the followers of Roman gods?

Can you just answer my question? Do you believe the LDS spiritual witness is superior to similar spiritual witnesses by those of other faiths?

[Jeff K.]

QUOTE

Does being "fifth generation" imbue you with some immunity to heresy or falsehood?

No it does not. Did I imply it did? I was simply letting Deborah know I was a member and had ancestry tied to the Church since she assumed I was not LDS

.

When you bring it up as a bona fide, it does indeed imply it. Does it add greater credibility than saying "I have been a member all my life"?

QUOTE

when even those who are active place the generational issue as some asset to their spiritual resume.

You really need to climb down off your high horse and lighten up

.

Then I wouldn't be able to see others on their very tall generational horses.

QUOTE

We know this is a proper and good thing to do because all of Joseph Smith's surviving children returned to the church once they grew to adulthood).

Joseph's children were part of the RLDS, a group who believed the Utah Church was in error and apostasy

.

I know, that was the reason I brought it up within the context of your resume. Think about it....

QUOTE

Now here is my question. Did the spiritual witness of Elijah trump the witnesses of Baal?

According to the Bible Elijah produced a physical witness. Tangible evidence. Spiritual witnesses lack tangible evidence for everyone but the recipient.

Thus this example is not applicable

.

Then you missed the follow up to the statement which establishes context and answers your question.

Are works needed for a spiritual witness to be greater? What does that say of Christs crucifiction where no spiritual witness was made manifest to the followers of Roman gods?

Allow me to clarify in case you missed it.....

So was the witnessing by the spirit though later apostles in the New Testament equal to the followers of Baal or Jupiter? Or was it the equivalent? If you were a follower of Paul speaking with a follower of the Carthan god Baal, how would you explain your spiritual witness to the divine truth being greater than his?

Does that make it more clear?

[Teancum]

When you bring it up as a bona fide, it does indeed imply it. Does it add greater credibility than saying "I have been a member all my life"?

.

Then I wouldn't be able to see others on their very tall generational horses.

I know, that was the reason I brought it up within the context of your resume. Think about it....

I think you misread my intent. Though I can see how you would take it that way.

.

Then you missed the follow up to the statement which establishes context and answers your question.

Allow me to clarify in case you missed it.....

So was the witnessing by the spirit though later apostles in the New Testament equal to the followers of Baal or Jupiter? Or was it the equivalent? If you were a follower of Paul speaking with a follower of the Carthan god Baal, how would you explain your spiritual witness to the divine truth being greater than his?

Does that make it more clear?

Once again apples to oranges. The apostles lived with Jesus, saw his miracle, witnessed his death and resurrection. The spirit then reinforced at a later day, the day of Pentecost all that they had experienced.

I am simply asking are the spiritual experiences LDS have that convince them that they are getting a witness of the LDS Church being the true church superior to those of other faiths.

Simple question. Can you answer it directly?

[Yamaha]

I haven't left the church.

But I have felt deceived.

If I would of found out certain things sooner - I would have made different choices in my life. Like - thinking for myself and choosing my own path instead of following the one that was laid out for me by others.

[Deborah]

Like - thinking for myself and choosing my own path instead of following the one that was laid out for me by others.

I really don't understand this. I've always chosen my own path. How does someone else choose for you? You are still accountable for your choices whether you follow your own desires or someone else's.

[HiJolly]

I haven't left the church.

But I have felt deceived.

If I would of found out certain things sooner - I would have made different choices in my life. Like - thinking for myself and choosing my own path instead of following the one that was laid out for me by others.

In contrast, I am immensly grateful that I DID follow the 'plan' - mission, temple marriage, word of wisdom, prayer, pondering, teaching Nursery....

It all worked VERY well for me!

HiJolly

[beastie]

I really don't understand this. I've always chosen my own path. How does someone else choose for you? You are still accountable for your choices whether you follow your own desires or someone else's.

Of course people remain accountable for their choices. The point is that if that same person has been taught, and believes, God wants him/her to do certain things, that person will be far likely to do those things - even if the things would not be the person's choice without the "God influence", so to speak.

[Jeff K.]

We fashion our own chains, but we decorate them with the blame projected on others.

[ERayR]

I haven't left the church.

But I have felt deceived.

If I would of found out certain things sooner - I would have made different choices in my life. Like - thinking for myself and choosing my own path instead of following the one that was laid out for me by others.

I don't understand what you are talking about I can not remember ever having been told to follow a path laid out by others. What I remember is being told to listen and go to the lord and get my own witness then to make up my own mind. Blind obedience has never been an option.

[Yamaha]

I don't understand what you are talking about I can not remember ever having been told to follow a path laid out by others. What I remember is being told to listen and go to the lord and get my own witness then to make up my own mind. Blind obedience has never been an option.

I have followed the path laid out for me by family members, church leaders, and friends. You know the path - you were taught it too.

Although much lipservice is given to "free agency", those who actually choose a different path are considered unrighteous, failures, unworthy, misguided or bad people. They are prayed about, pitied, looked down upon, and mourned over. Their parents, siblings, home teachers, bishops, and friends never give up on trying to get them to change their chosen path and return. Sometimes, their parents feel like failures, their spouses divorce them, their children are ashamed.

[Jeff K.]

Many who choose a different path are indeed unrighteous. Free agency does not mean the path you choose will be accepted or even acceptable. It is still your choice.

[Yamaha]

Many who choose a different path are indeed unrighteous. Free agency does not mean the path you choose will be accepted or even acceptable. It is still your choice.

Let's say.... you are a decent, law abiding citizen who minds his/her own business and does no harm to others, but who prefers not to attend church and chooses a path other than Mormon/LDS. Unrighteous? Unacceptable? Unworthy? A disappointment to parents? A failure?

LDS culture doesn't really allow for people to choose their own path (if different from LDS) and still be as respected and accepted as they would have otherwise been.

[Grace de Maya]

This is a sincere question for those who left the church because you felt that the church hid something from you, or who advocate the church be more forthcoming about what you consider the negatives. Assuming you were able to learn these things sooner, what difference would it have made on whether you left the church or not. I don't see how it makes any difference if some of the things that turn you away from the church are learned earlier or later. Perhaps you can explain it.

I haven't read the bazillion posts in this thread, but allow me to answer the question in light of my current issues (and the experiences I've seen from some friends who had issues):

The problem doesn't seem to be one of "deception" or "hiding something". The problem is that we each build up an image of "The Church" and "Joseph Smith" in our minds, so when we say "The Church is True" or "Joseph Smith was a Prophet", we have an image of something in our minds. So the problem is that we are taught a certain version or image, but then we may learn that that "image" isn't accurate. Sometimes the differences are small, or we are able to correct the "image" without doing any damage to our testimony; but sometimes the adjustment is too great, and we find that the CHurch we thought was "true" is too different than we thought it was.

So the important thing would be to get an accurate "image". Of course, knowledge is always changing, but the Church should be careful to not give people an "image" that can't be accurate (like allowing kids to grow up with a romantic image of Joseph being monogamous). Even little ideas like the Church being the "fastest growing Church in the world" can become important parts of someone's image of the church, and while it isn't a dealbreaker to learn it isn't the case, it's an example of stuff that can happen.