For those who felt deceived

[Deborah]

This is a sincere question for those who left the church because you felt that the church hid something from you, or who advocate the church be more forthcoming about what you consider the negatives. Assuming you were able to learn these things sooner, what difference would it have made on whether you left the church or not. I don't see how it makes any difference if some of the things that turn you away from the church are learned earlier or later. Perhaps you can explain it.

[hordak]

This is a sincere question for those who left the church because you felt that the church hid something from you, or who advocate the church be more forthcoming about what you consider the negatives. Assuming you were able to learn these things sooner, what difference would it have made on whether you left the church or not. I don't see how it makes any difference if some of the things that turn you away from the church are learned earlier or later. Perhaps you can explain it.

I like to think so. For me the omission speaks worse then the issues.

God commanding Joseph to marry a 14 year old girl is no more absurd then God commanding the death of adulterers by stoning.

Peepstones and Burning bushes rate on the same "weirdness scale" IMO.

But the omission of these non PC ideas don't bode well for Gods true church. I would be more apt to believe if the prophet came out and said.

Yes Joseph married, married women

Yes some were children

Yes god was once a man

Yes polygamy was/is essential

Yes blacks and handicap people were less valiant in the premarital life

Yes the Indians are descendants of the laminates

Yes we will become gods

Yes a peep stone was used to translate the book of Mormon

etc.

An Infant makes a mess and lets you know because there is nothing wrong with it.

A tot makes a mess and hides it, because they know they shouldn't have done it.

An Adult makes a mess, apologizes and cleans it up because they know it was wrong.

The church Plays the role of the Tot IMO.

And if any of those teachings are wrong they should play the role of the adult.

"Yes these prophets said that, and yes they said that in an official format. But they were wrong, this is why you should rely on personal revelation and not accept everything the Prophets says today as doctrine."

If they did that I would bet they would have inactives come back in record numbers

[John Williams]

This is a sincere question for those who left the church because you felt that the church hid something from you, or who advocate the church be more forthcoming about what you consider the negatives. Assuming you were able to learn these things sooner, what difference would it have made on whether you left the church or not. I don't see how it makes any difference if some of the things that turn you away from the church are learned earlier or later. Perhaps you can explain it.

Hmmm. That's a tough question. Yes, the church could stand to be more forthcoming about its history, but for someone like me who knew about the "problems" for years and nevertheless stayed and believed, it wouldn't have made any difference.

[Helorum]

handicap people were less valiant

CFR. Please feel free to try and establish this as a Church doctrine.

less valiant in the premarital life

ROFL!!! Would you care to rephrase this?

[TNBu]

This is a sincere question for those who left the church because you felt that the church hid something from you, or who advocate the church be more forthcoming about what you consider the negatives. Assuming you were able to learn these things sooner, what difference would it have made on whether you left the church or not. I don't see how it makes any difference if some of the things that turn you away from the church are learned earlier or later. Perhaps you can explain it.

I was raised to believe the church was true, and most of the information I had been presented in my upbringing (Sunday School, YW, CES programs) supported that conclusion. When I was exposed to documented facts that challenged that initial hypothesis, I carefully reconsidered and revised my conclusion on the basis of this evidence. If I come across a substantial degree of evidence for the truthfulness of the church, I'll change my mind.

Part of what motivated the struggle that resulted in my separation from the church was the psychological impact of realizing that there were documented aspects of church history that made it look man-made and that the church was not generally forthcoming about these historical matters.

This realization was prompted by the publishing of the "Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young" manual. Though I was raised understanding that polygamy was a part of my family history and church history, I was puzzled that the church would publish a manual that essentially portrayed BY as a monogamist. That led to the realization that investigators probably weren't hearing any of this from the missionaries. It struck me immediately as deck-stacking, and made me wonder if conclusions I had come to were possibly based on carefully-selected information as well. I immediately commenced a search and was introduced, via FARMS and FAIR, to a number of aspects of church history that even I was unaware of (Polyandry, how the BoA came about, etc.).

I imagine that if I had been presented this information earlier, during the formative years of my intellectual development when I was more dependent on parents and other leadership, I would have been less apt to question as I did. In the same way that polygyny and the "Blacks and the Priesthood" issue didn't make me question the truthfulness of the church, I imagine I would have been used to the idea of polyandry as well. I suspect that if I had been brought up knowing these more controversial aspects, and taught that they had no bearing on the truthfulness of the gospel, I would not have found them to be shocking enough to motivate me to seriously reconsider my initial hypothesis which was a product of not only fact and reason, but appeal to the authority of trusted parents and loved ones.

[JLFuller]

I like to think so. For me the omission speaks worse then the issues.

God commanding Joseph to marry a 14 year old girl is no more absurd then God commanding the death of adulterers by stoning.

Peepstones and Burning bushes rate on the same "weirdness scale" IMO.

But the omission of these non PC ideas don't bode well for Gods true church. I would be more apt to believe if the prophet came out and said.

Yes Joseph married, married women

Yes some were children

Yes god was once a man

Yes polygamy was/is essential

Yes blacks and handicap people were less valiant in the premarital life

Yes the Indians are descendants of the laminates

Yes we will become gods

Yes a peep stone was used to translate the book of Mormon

etc.

An Infant makes a mess and lets you know because there is nothing wrong with it.

A tot makes a mess and hides it, because they know they shouldn't have done it.

An Adult makes a mess, apologizes and cleans it up because they know it was wrong.

The church Plays the role of the Tot IMO.

And if any of those teachings are wrong they should play the role of the adult.

"Yes these prophets said that, and yes they said that in an official format. But they were wrong, this is why you should rely on personal revelation and not accept everything the Prophets says today as doctrine."

If they did that I would bet they would have inactives come back in record numbers

Hordak

I have only been a member of the church since 1958 but I have to tell you that I have never heard of some the things you bring up in your post. Where did you get some of this stuff? Have you been reading the God Makers again? Come on old buddy. You know that the JoD is not doctrine and that doctrine is established by living prophets and opinions by dead people are just opinions and not doctrine. You should know by now that deification is a first century Christian belief still believed by many of the early church fathers and spoke about clear into the fifth century. You should also know that the whole polygamy story is still not understood or told.

[Tarski]

This is a sincere question for those who left the church because you felt that the church hid something from you, or who advocate the church be more forthcoming about what you consider the negatives. Assuming you were able to learn these things sooner, what difference would it have made on whether you left the church or not. I don't see how it makes any difference if some of the things that turn you away from the church are learned earlier or later. Perhaps you can explain it.

I could have spent my time pursuing other worthy causes. I could have been going on dates and attending college instead of going door to door trying to convince people of something for which I had no real evidence.

In my 20's I could have guiltlessly had normal natural libido driven thoughts (and actions) about the opposite sex. The same kind that my currently successful and happy friends enjoyed in their youth.

I could have read hundreds more books and finished my PhD sooner. Would I be at a better university now? Who knows?

I might have married someone who believed that love trumped a specific man made religion and that would have stayed with me and let me be free to come to my honest and sincere conclusions about the fringe religion I was born into. Instead she left me (and not for anything I did to her or any infidelity) for being honest with myself (that's love?)

I would have also saved tens of thousands of dollars--I don't know and will probably never know what it was used for. It may as well have gone to the Jehova's Witnesses.

I could have understood things from a scientific perspective without struggling to reconcile with superstitions, an eternal mammal God, and Kolob global floods, and angels, and devils----oh I could have avoided being scared of the devil --what utter silliness.

I remember when I was 10 and moved to NY, I bragged to my catholic friends that my religion was simple and straightforward with no elaborate rituals.

I wish I had known that I was dead wrong about that. Within minutes of first going through the temple I felt a sense of having been deceived. But I submerged the feelings.

I also felt outrage when I stumbled across Nibley's absurd "second layer of meaning" defense of the BoA translation while in a university library.

Much could have been better if only my parents had not used the words "I know that this church is true". Because, they did not know it anymore that I did or any of the missionaries (some of whom quit) did.

Absolute honesty about what they really did or didn't know could have saved me some serious pain and saved me years of time.

[JLFuller]

I could have spent my time persuing other worthy causes. I could have been going on dates and attending college instead of going door to door trying to convince people of something for which I had no real evidence.

In my 20's I could have guiltlessly had normal natural libido driven thoughts (and actions) about the oppsosite sex. The same kind that my currently sucessful and happy friends enjoyed in their youth.

I could have read hundreds more books and finished my PhD sooner. Would I be at a better university now? Who knows?

I might have married someone who believed that love trumped a specific man made religion and that would have stayed with me and let me be free to come to my honest and sincere conclusions about the fringe religion I was born into. Instead she left me (and not for anything I did to her or any infidelity) for being honest with myself (that's love?)

I would have also saved tens of thousands of dollars--I don't know and will probably never know what it was used for. It may as well have gone to the Jehova's Witnesses.

I could have understood things from a scientific perspective without struggling to reconcile with superstitions, an eternal mammal God, and Kolob global floods, and angels, and devils----oh I could have avoided being scared of the devil --what utter silliness.

I remember when I was 10 and moved to NY, I bragged to my catholic friends that my religion was simple and straightforward with no elaborate rituals.

I wish I had known that I was dead wrong about that. Within minutes of first going through the temple I felt a sense of having been deceived. But I submerged the feelings.

I also felt outrage when I stumbled accorss Nibley's absurd "second layer of meaning" defense of the BoA translation while in a university library.

Much could have been better if only my parents had not used the words "I know that this church is true". Because, they did not know it anymore that I did or any of the missionaries (some of whom quit) did.

Absolute honesty about what they really did or didn't know could have saved me some serious pain and saved me years of time.

So what is your mission here on this board? Did you get your PHd yet? If so what is your discipline?

[John Williams]

Absolute honesty about what they really did or didn't know could have saved me some serious pain and saved me years of time.

I used to think a lot about what my life would have been had I figured things out sooner. It may well have been as you describe, but there's no going back and changing it. I sometimes envy those who figure it out in their teens or twenties. Definitely would have saved me a lot of heartache.

[Tarski]

So what is your mission here on this board? Did you get your PHd yet? If so what is your discipline?

Beyond recreation, I would say to be a mild catalyst for critical skeptical thought.

I got my PhD years ago in mathematics and I am a tenured professor. But I was 2 or three years older than my competitors and in math, age is an issue (or so warned one of my professors when I graduated).

[John Williams]

Beyond recreation, I would say to be a mild catalyst for critical skeptical thought.

Not me. I'm here to destroy testimonies.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Yes blacks and handicap people were less valiant in the premarital life

Everyone is less valiant in the pre-marital life, imo.

But maybe you meant pre-mortal. Why would you want the Church to be forthright by teaching falsehoods like this one? This has never been doctrine of the Church. Some have certainly speculated as regards to race (I've never seen this idea applied to disabled people) but it is in no revelation of the Church.

Yes we will become gods

Ye are gods.

Yes a peep stone was used to translate the book of Mormon

The seer stone?

[beastie]

I joined the LDS church at the age of nineteen in 1976. (yes, I'm old)

At the time, I was attending a small private college nestled in Virginia mountains. I tried to find information about mormonism outside the missionaries and my already LDS sister, but my college library only had two very small books that were obviously too polemic in nature for me to view as reliable (produced by EVs). The only source of information about the LDS church that I had access to was the LDS church.

I am 100% positive that had I been able to use the internet, not just to find information but to order books specifically about mormon history - I would never have joined the LDS church to begin with. I say that confidently because once I did discover these things on my own, I lost faith in the LDS church.

Now, in regards to whether or not my life would have been better or worse had I never joined the LDS church, who knows. There is no way to answer that question. However, I do know I would have made vastly different choices in my life, and spent my money and time very differently (as well as use a different "formula" for choosing a spouse, which was one of those decisions I made through the LDS lens that turned out to be horrifically damaging to my life, although it did bring me three lovely children).

This is a large part of the reason I remain involve in the "mormon scene", so to speak. I would like to offer information to people who may sincerely be looking for information to help them evaluate the church's claims, because I was once in that position myself, and no information was available to me.

[Daniel Peterson]

I'm not sure that it would have made much difference if I had begun to discover the "true history" of the Church and other such things earlier than I actually did -- say, at 16 rather than at 17 or 18.

After all, I still believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true.

[Tarski]

I'm not sure that it would have made much difference if I had begun to discover the "true history" of the Church and other such things earlier than I actually did -- say, at 16 rather than at 17 or 18.

After all, I still believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true.

Am I to understand that you knew about Fanny Alger, early Mormon "polyandry", the Egyptological issues about the BoA and the full history and initial uses of the JS seer stone at age 17? Was your first exposure from apologetic sources? Did you get the info slowly bit by bit, line upon line (inoculation)?

Well, not everyone reacts to information in the same way. There are many who after reaching OT8 and getting the inside scoop on Xenu and the million year galactic war, stay with Scientology. To each his own.

[TJane]

I joined the LDS church at the age of nineteen in 1976. (yes, I'm old)

I didn't feel deceived as I am still a member .. I just wanted to say "Hey! I'm the same age as you!!!"

Cool.

Jane

[Tarski]

"Hey! I'm the same age as you!!!"

Me too!

[LifeOnaPlate]

Am I to understand that you knew about Fanny Alger, early Mormon "polyandry", the Egyptological issues about the BoA and the full history and initial uses of the JS seer stone at age 17? Was your first exposure from apologetic sources? Did you get the info slowly bit by bit, line upon line (inoculation)?

I had an idea of these issues when I was 16. Thanks to the anti-Mormon bookstore at Nauvoo.

Well, not everyone reacts to information in the same way. There are many who after reaching OT8 and getting the inside scoop on Xenu and the million year galactic war, stay with Scientology. To each his own.

Lame.

[Kyle]

I left the church at 15-16 (I'm 18), mostly from the internet. With all the thougths, theories, and ideas on the net, it was not a difficult experience compared to what others might have had to go through. I talk to friends that are my age that are still in the church, and some that have left the church. Those who have left have all said the use of the internet for their best source. My friend and I were talking that the "Mormon Life" is like a small glass shell, and its especially fragile as a teen. I feel that my generation is the first that has such a vast amount of knowledge at our fingertips, and for that I am grateful.

I think it will be interesting to look at statistics in the next couple of decades and see if the internet will affected youth members.

[Kyle]

This is a sincere question for those who left the church because you felt that the church hid something from you, or who advocate the church be more forthcoming about what you consider the negatives. Assuming you were able to learn these things sooner, what difference would it have made on whether you left the church or not. I don't see how it makes any difference if some of the things that turn you away from the church are learned earlier or later. Perhaps you can explain it.

For some, the issue just isn't the church, its religion in general, specifically christianity. To be frank, I feel that the LDS church and every other christian denomination are all in the same basket, just with different colors.

[MistyAnn0414]

I don't know if I would go back and change things. I learned a lot in my experience in the LDS Church. I feel like I'm a stronger Christian now because if it. I study the Bible more now than I did when I was LDS. I want God to teach me what he wants me to know. Before I just accepted what I learned in Sunday School, and Relief Society. I never question what the missionaries who taught me the discussion said, I just accepted it. If anything my experience has made me a little more cynical, I don't automatically believe what people tell me about religion or Christianity.I search it out myself.

[Cold Steel]

I've always been fascinated by the marriage angle. When Orson Hyde went to the Holy Land, Joseph Smith "married" his wife. Upon his return, she "married" him back and there were no disputes between them. Well after his return, she had a son that was Orson's, not Joseph's. There also were other married women that Joseph "married," but what exactly was this marriage?

The fact is, no one knows what took place behind closed doors and they presume to know what they could not.

Joseph "married" a teenage girl. Did they ever consummate it? Why do you think "marriage" equals "sexual relations"?

You're betting your eternal life on what you think happened, even when no one knows what happened.

Anyone who's ever read any hard core anti-Christian material knows that the tactics and the doubt and innuendo are identical. I had a high school philosophy teacher who met with groups of students after school and drove many of them from their churches into the atheistic camp. So if you've found yourself on the outside of Mormonism but still on the inside of Christianity, then don't read the anti-Christian stuff. On the other hand, if you want to write an anti-Mormon book and don't care about anything else, read all these debunking Christianity books and websites, then use the same tactics against Mormonism.

[Anijen]

I had a confirmation from the Holy Ghost validating the Prophet Joseph and the Book of Mormon. After I learned about polandry, Fanny Alger, preisthood ban, MMM etc I still could not deny the spiritual confirmation that I had.

After studying most of it away from the anti-slang some of the slightly "different" doctrines actually are beautiful to me such as sealings for eternity, being able to creat a world some day (lots of mountains lakes streams and trees to hike and fish.

I can no longer be shocked from any doctrine or principal I take it to the Lord and ask him, I do not follow blindly. I still take a giant leap in faith which is required. But from sticking around and following the Holy Ghost I have experienced many of the spirtual promptings many who have left the church said they never felt. I am greatful for my membership and for the preisthood I bear. I do not begrudge those who feel they have been led out of the church but I am a little sadden because I want them to experience the spirit as I have and then if they decide to leave after that well then I dont know.

[ERayR]

I like to think so. For me the omission speaks worse then the issues.

God commanding Joseph to marry a 14 year old girl is no more absurd then God commanding the death of adulterers by stoning.

Peepstones and Burning bushes rate on the same "weirdness scale" IMO.

But the omission of these non PC ideas don't bode well for Gods true church. I would be more apt to believe if the prophet came out and said.

Yes Joseph married, married women

Yes some were children

Yes god was once a man

Yes polygamy was/is essential

Yes blacks and handicap people were less valiant in the premarital life

Yes the Indians are descendants of the laminates

Yes we will become gods

Yes a peep stone was used to translate the book of Mormon

etc.

An Infant makes a mess and lets you know because there is nothing wrong with it.

A tot makes a mess and hides it, because they know they shouldn't have done it.

An Adult makes a mess, apologizes and cleans it up because they know it was wrong.

The church Plays the role of the Tot IMO.

And if any of those teachings are wrong they should play the role of the adult.

"Yes these prophets said that, and yes they said that in an official format. But they were wrong, this is why you should rely on personal revelation and not accept everything the Prophets says today as doctrine."

If they did that I would bet they would have inactives come back in record numbers

I'll bet not. It wouldn't make an iota's difference. It would then be some other complaint.

[zerinus]

This is a sincere question for those who left the church because you felt that the church hid something from you, or who advocate the church be more forthcoming about what you consider the negatives. Assuming you were able to learn these things sooner, what difference would it have made on whether you left the church or not. I don't see how it makes any difference if some of the things that turn you away from the church are learned earlier or later. Perhaps you can explain it.

I donâ??t think those were the real reasons why they left the Church. I think that the reasons were either that they never had a testimony (and didnâ??t bother to get one); or else they lost their testimony through transgression. Loss of testimony invariably comes through transgression; and the antidote to that is repentance, nothing else.

zerinus