For those who felt deceived

[Tarski]

The difference is the faithful sin and humble themselves and do something about it to change and endure rather than quiting and becoming bitter, like yourself.

Nope. The difference is that some people stay in a religion and others get out. The part about human struggles to do what one knows is right is a constant--one that is turned into an issue by religionists. Don't you know every religion and every cult thinks that people only quit because of sins, failures and infractions? You can be sure that if Bill the Seeker quit the Church of the All Seeing Eye to join the Mormons, the remaining members would say it was because of sin. That's how it works.If an FLDS defects to LDS (or visa versa), there will be speculation of grave sin.

I'm agreeing with my statement.I said what I meant.That's sophistical equivocation, Tarski. Nothing more.

How so?

[spinner]

I'm agreeing with my statement.

I said what I meant.

OK, but you seemed to be defending a5m5a5d's assertions when I called them a defense mechanism. I suspect you are right in your statement that most who leave the church do so over issues other than doctrinal disputes (or at least not solely because of such disputes).

I do not agree with a5m5a5d's statement that most who leave the Church do so because they are unrepentant sinners, and I still maintain it is a gross caricature and a defense mechanism.

[Kyle]

The BofM inaccuracies....... now, I just happen to have read just a little bit in the BofM, and read just a little bit about it from a few angles. You are in your very early youth, and so...... realistically and truthfully (not to insult whatsoever here), you can hardly have become acquainted with anything about the BofM. I would be interested in learning what inaccuaracies you found that were so compelling to you. Thanks.

Don't worry about insulting me. If your arguement relies solely on my age I will be glad to talk to you. But what does concern me is that you said "you can hardly have become acquainted with anything about the BofM" Thats a pretty extreme statement wouldn't you think? I mean I am at the age where the men of the church go on a 2 year mission for the lord. If I can't be acquainted with anything about the BofM on acount of my age, I guess all the hundreds of thousands of missionaries throughout the church history couldn't either.

I think this website answers alot of the questions.

mormonmesoamerica.com

[Tarski]

Don't worry about insulting me. If your arguement relies solely on my age I will be glad to talk to you. But what does concern me is that you said "you can hardly have become acquainted with anything about the BofM" Thats a pretty extreme statement wouldn't you think? I mean I am at the age where the men of the church go on a 2 year mission for the lord.

I think he's got ya there Kerry.

[krose]

The Book of Mormon made some astounding prophecies that have come to pass. The United States indeed became a nation above all others.

So I take it you do not believe the apologists who claim that the BoM happened entirely in a small portion of Central America?

The church did prosper and is filling the Earth despite the fact that in 1830 it seemed like an impossible task.

Filling the Earth? How is that happening exactly? Surely you are not saying that the LDS church will become the dominant religion in the world -- or even just in the US, where a study just last week showed that the LDS market share has not increased at all in 20 years (holding steady at about 1.4% since 1990).

[a5m5a5d]

I think this website answers alot of the questions.

mormonmesoamerica.com

You are basing your conclusions on an invalid source. Try reading the Book of Mormon, then choose to accept or reject it, rather than letting someone else decide for you.

[a5m5a5d]

I think he's got ya there Kerry.

No he doesn't. I'm the same age as "Kyle" and I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. Although I'm sure I don't know as much as scriptorians who've studied their entire lives, i've read the book and i've received a witness and know it to be true. Kyle here has no witness, and bases his conclusions on invalid material.

If I want to know what oranges taste like, I eat an orange. I don't read a book about how oranges taste disgusting.

[saemo]

So we're lying even when we're not.

Nah, I don't believe individual Mormons lie about their beliefs. I believe you are quite sincere.

Just, what you believe, is a deception. I believe you have been deceived. I believe I was deceived.

Got it.

I don't feel that way about any religious faith that I can think of. Maybe I lack the right gene.

Yet, your church teaches that every other church teach false doctrines.

[a5m5a5d]

So I take it you do not believe the apologists who claim that the BoM happened entirely in a small portion of Central America?

Filling the Earth? How is that happening exactly? Surely you are not saying that the LDS church will become the dominant religion in the world -- or even just in the US, where a study just last week showed that the LDS market share has not increased at all in 20 years (holding steady at about 1.4% since 1990).

Filling the Earth doesn't mean topping the charts in statistics. The Gospel will be preached to all nations.

[krose]

I guess I'm not one of those whom Deborah targeted with her opening questions, because I didn't learn about any of the controversial issues regarding history, the BoM, the BoA, etc. until many years after dropping out of the church (long before the Internet Age).

As for me, I just gave up after years of struggling (hard, including as a missionary) to get that elusive "testimony," and came to the conclusion that there must not be anything out there that answers prayers. What's the point of sticking around after that?

[Tarski]

If I want to know what oranges taste like, I eat an orange. I don't read a book about how oranges taste disgusting.

I have some "fruit" I would like you to try. Please do not read up on them before you eat a whole one.

[Tarski]

I guess I'm not one of those whom Deborah targeted with her opening questions, because I didn't learn about any of the controversial issues regarding history, the BoM, the BoA, etc. until many years after dropping out of the church (long before the Internet Age).

As for me, I just gave up after years of struggling (hard, including as a missionary) to get that elusive "testimony," and came to the conclusion that there must not be anything out there that answers prayers. What's the point of sticking around after that?

Since we both went to the same mission at the same time, remind me to tell you the sad story of my commitment to not get off my knees in the Japanese mountains until I recieved a more solid testimony (or one at all).

Suffice it to say that my knees hurt and my compainion was quite unhappy as the hours passed and the sun set.

[Tarski]

Filling the Earth doesn't mean topping the charts in statistics. The Gospel will be preached to all nations.

Humans have existed for about 150,000 years. Maybe a 100 billion people.

Almost all people and nations that have ever existed will have heard nothing of this religion.

[a5m5a5d]

I have some "fruit" I would like you to try. Please do not read up on them before you eat a whole one.

I guess you can live your life through other people's experiences rather than your own.

[Tabitha]

This is a sincere question for those who left the church because you felt that the church hid something from you, or who advocate the church be more forthcoming about what you consider the negatives. Assuming you were able to learn these things sooner, what difference would it have made on whether you left the church or not. I don't see how it makes any difference if some of the things that turn you away from the church are learned earlier or later. Perhaps you can explain it.

I guess I'm not completely qualified to answer because I haven't left the church and have no plans to.

For me, I am not so offended that the less inspirational parts of church history are left out. I think modern day church leaders are sincere in their belief that this is the one and only true church, and it's only natural that they would want to emphasize those things that support that POV.

What I have trouble with are certain attitudes that seem to be handed down from a less enlightened time in church history. The acceptance of polygamy as a something holy and desirable (by some people, granted) just makes me want to run for the hills. The way we LDS beat ourselves over the sufferings of our most glorious and noble pioneers- blah! The repetition of silly illogical myths- like JS not drinking alcohol during his operation- makes me crazy. And the authoritarianism that comes with being God's representatives on earth- sometimes I want to say, whoa nelly (but that's just 'cause I'm a strong headed gal who doesn't like to be bossed around)!

That said, I think there is a lot of value that comes from believing that your church is the only true church. It is a powerful motivator. IMO, most of the things we are motivated to do through that belief are really good things that benefit us tremendously both here and in the hereafter. I think the LDS are trying harder than any people on earth to live a holy life. My hat's off to that!

[a5m5a5d]

Since we both went to the same mission at the same time, remind me to tell you the sad story of my commitment to not get off my knees in the Japanese mountains until I recieved a more solid testimony (or one at all).

Suffice it to say that my knees hurt and my compainion was quite unhappy as the hours passed and the sun set.

Although your story is touching, a testimony isn't simply given when asked through prayer on the spot.

[krose]

Filling the Earth doesn't mean topping the charts in statistics. The Gospel will be preached to all nations.

Does that include Raider Nation and the Aryan Nation?

Anyway, if that's all it means nowadays, any organization with 10 to 20 missionaries could easily accomplish that task. Just send one person into each country for a few days, preaching on a street corner, and you've got it done. Filled the Earth, just like that.

However, I would like to see how this will be accomplished in places like Saudi Arabia and Iran, where missionary work is illegal. Perhaps we could redefine "nation" to mean "continent" and declare the work done already.

[Tarski]

Although your story is touching, a testimony isn't simply given when asked through prayer on the spot.

So I am told. Did I mention that the quest lasted another decade or two?

But whatever it takes to get the approved answer-right?

[a5m5a5d]

Humans have existed for about 150,000 years. Maybe a 100 billion people.

Almost all people and nations that have ever existed will have heard nothing of this religion.

Even if humans had existed that long and there were 100 billion people (which is untrue), all who have not heard will have a chance through missionary work in the spirit world.

No wonder you didn't have a testimony, you don't understand a single piece of doctrine. And instead of working to gain a testimony, you tried the easy way and just asked for one. Do any of your students ever come up to you and ask for an A, even though they haven't completed a single assignment?

[Kyle]

name='a5m5a5d' date='Mar 15 2009, 09:22 PM' post='1208615826']

Didn't you say you were 18? I'm 18 as well. And I understand what it's like going through high-school, into college, and questioning life. I play college athletics, and I know what it's like to be tempted to follow the "IN-crowd."

It's things like this that give the impression of 18 year olds... not being learned.

Yes I am going to high-school, into college, and questioning life. But I am not sure if I fit into your stereotypical situation of following the "IN-crowd", I mean unless you're talking about Sigmund Freud, George Smith, Ayn Rand, Charles Darwin, Voltaire, Carl Sagan, Nietzche, J.S. Mill, Mark Twain, Edison, and I am sure I have missed a couple throughout human history. Labeling people's search for truth and meaning and understaning of the universe as nothing more than following the in crowd reveals how much thought you've put into this.

But talking to others about other religions and such, the LDS church is the only one that makes sense, and that can answer questions that I have in a manner that makes sense. All other religions don't seem to have the answers the LDS church does, or else they lead to conclusions that contradict themselves.

Is it too much to assume you've studied all the other religions?

What contradictions have you come across in other religions?

I don't know where you find BoM inaccuracy? There is nothing inaccurate in the book. Have you read it?

Yes, many times. www.mormonmesoamerica.com

It seems to me that you believe in no religion at all, and it seems sad. How do you say you find peace, when you believe in nothing? What peace is there in nothing?

First, I appreciate your sympathy. Why do I have to believe in something to find peace? Instead of finding peace, why can't I already have it?

There have been times in my life where after transgression i've fallen slightly away from the church. I bet if you ask most anti-mormon people, they'll tell you that they transgressed before they left the church. I could see it in a small portion in my own life, but luckily I didn't let it get out of control. I think most who leave the church bash against it so hard, because in their hearts a part of them still knows it's true and cannot deny it. It's because of their pride that they refuse to come to their senses.

Is it possible that some leave the church because it is not true?

I've realized that wickedness is never happiness, and that true joy and peace can only be found through our savior Jesus Christ. No other way.

How do you know this?

[krose]

Since we both went to the same mission at the same time, remind me to tell you the sad story of my commitment to not get off my knees in the Japanese mountains until I recieved a more solid testimony (or one at all).

Suffice it to say that my knees hurt and my compainion was quite unhappy as the hours passed and the sun set.

Man, that does make me sad, and not just because I can relate to the anguish and the futility of the struggle (I spent many days in the Utah mountains on a similar quest the year before). It's also a shame that we couldn't fully enjoy what was such a beautiful place. It sounds like a story of a P-Day gone horribly askew for your companion, though.

a5..., the wise 18-year-old, wrote:

Although your story is touching, a testimony isn't simply given when asked through prayer on the spot.

In my experience, it also is not given after years of faithful adherence and diligent study, followed by many days of fasting and prayer. Or by two years of faithful missionary service and constant pleading.

[a5m5a5d]

Does that include Raider Nation and the Aryan Nation?

Anyway, if that's all it means nowadays, any organization with 10 to 20 missionaries could easily accomplish that task. Just send one person into each country for a few days, preaching on a street corner, and you've got it done. Filled the Earth, just like that.

However, I would like to see how this will be accomplished in places like Saudi Arabia and Iran, where missionary work is illegal. Perhaps we could redefine "nation" to mean "continent" and declare the work done already.

I've never heard of those nations...

And I guess you could redefine the word of God to make it convenient for you.

2 Nephi 29:7 "Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?"

[Tarski]

Even if humans had existed that long and there were 100 billion people (which is untrue), all who have not heard will have a chance through missionary work in the spirit world.

Convenient. Why even preach at all. Let it all be in the spirit world it is almost all anyway. Why do you deny the 100 Billion?

No wonder you didn't have a testimony, you don't understand a single piece of doctrine.

A single piece huh? Hmmm. Well I passed all my religion classes at BYU, was allowed to be a gospel doctrine teacher and served a full time mission. I practically devoured and nearly memorized McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine" as a teen. I've read all the standard works.

And yet I managed to not understand even a single piece of doctrine.

Wow!

I'm now 50. How old are you again?

And instead of working to gain a testimony, you tried the easy way and just asked for one. Do any of your students ever come up to you and ask for an A, even though they haven't completed a single assignment?

There is no point to the question because the premise is false. I did my homework.

[Kyle]

I've never heard of those nations...

I guess that's a good thing.

[a5m5a5d]

Convenient. Why even preach at all. Let it all be in the spirit world it is almost all anyway. Why do you deny the 100 Billion?

A single piece huh? Hmmm. Well I passed all my religion classes at BYU, was allowed to be a gospel doctrine teacher and served a full time mission. I practically devoured and nearly memorized McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine" as a teen. I've read all the standard works.

And yet I managed to not understand even a single piece of doctrine.

Wow!

I'm now 50. How old are you again?

There is no point to the question because the premise is false. I did my homework.

There's a differenc between understanding doctrine, and believing in it and applying it to your life.